Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion

[Toed]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

Hjälmaren 70 km
Siljan 40 km

Where are those lakes ?

Borrowed one of the maps and put the names in hope it helps.

[Froonp]

Here is what the map looks like, with the modification unanimously adopted (well, I also changed Karlsrona, even if it is not at 100% YES), and the latest proposal of ullern (with the railway to Bergen & Alpine hexsides slightly modified), and with the proposal for the Sea Area Boundary between the North Sea and the Norwegian Sea.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: Toed
Borrowed one of the maps and put the names in hope it helps.

Yes, it helps.
Unfortunately, Hjälmaren cannot be placed, because either it will connect to the Vättern, or the the lake / water area south of Stockholm. On the 3rd hexside there is the railway.

Siljan is too small. But I'm ok to add it if you all want it.

[Zorachus99]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

Yes, it helps.
Unfortunately, Hjälmaren cannot be placed, because either it will connect to the Vättern, or the the lake / water area south of Stockholm. On the 3rd hexside there is the railway.

Siljan is too small. But I'm ok to add it if you all want it.

How about moving the rail one hex west and put Hjalmaren on the hexside between the coase and lake there?

Can Siljan be a river hexside with a lake graphic? The effect would be close to what you want...

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: Zorachus99

ORIGINAL: Froonp
Yes, it helps.
Unfortunately, Hjälmaren cannot be placed, because either it will connect to the Vättern, or the the lake / water area south of Stockholm. On the 3rd hexside there is the railway.

Siljan is too small. But I'm ok to add it if you all want it.

How about moving the rail one hex west and put Hjalmaren on the hexside between the coase and lake there?

Great idea !! I don't understand what the "coase" is, but I suppose you meant to put the Hjälmaren on the hexside where the rail was before being moved to the hex to the west.
What do others think ?

[Froonp]

Here is the status of the votes, having removed those who are added to the map above already.

Tampere (35,47) (Borger) : Add. Third largest city.
6 Voters : 50 % YES, 50 % NO.
City / Finland

Finnish Borderlands 1a (33,52) (Borger) : Become Finnish. No more Finnish borderlands.
5 Voters : 20 % YES, 80 % NO.
Country / Finland

Finnish Borderlands 1b (34,52) (Borger) : Become Finnish. No more Finnish borderlands.
5 Voters : 20 % YES, 80 % NO.
Country / Finland

Finnish Borderlands 1c (33,54) (Borger) : Become Russian. No more Finnish borderlands.
5 Voters : 60 % YES, 40 % NO.
Country / Finland

Lake Femunden (34,38 E) (Borger) : Remove.
5 Voters : 40 % YES, 60 % NO.
Lake / Norway

Lake Mjøsa (Mjosa) (36,38 E, NE) (Borger) : Add.
4 Voters : 75 % YES, 25 % NO.
Lake / Norway

NEW Lake Hjälmaren (39,41 NW) (c92nichj) : Add.
1 Voters : 100 % YES, 0 % NO.
Lake /

Boden Fortified (27,46) (Toed) : Fortify hex all directions
5 Voters : 80 % YES, 20 % NO.
Fortification / Sweden

Boden (27,46) (Borger) : Renamme Luleå (Lulea).
6 Voters : 83 % YES, 17 % NO.
Minor Port / Sweden

Bodø (Bodo) (26,41) (Borger) : Add. For supply reasons.
6 Voters : 50 % YES, 50 % NO.
Minor Port / Norway

Kirkenes (21,51) (ullern) : Add. For supply reasons.
4 Voters : 0 % YES, 100 % NO.
Minor Port / Norway

Tromsø (Tromso) (21,46) (Borger) : Add. For supply reasons.
6 Voters : 83 % YES, 17 % NO.
Minor Port / Norway

Turku (37,46) (Borger) : Add. Second largest Finnish city.
6 Voters : 67 % YES, 33 % NO.
Minor Port / Finland

Iron ore of Gällivare & Kiruna 2 (24,45) (c92nichj) : Move 1 hex SE.
5 Voters : 20 % YES, 80 % NO.
Resource / Sweden

Clear hex (Resource) (40,35) (ullern) : Change to Mountain.
4 Voters : 50 % YES, 50 % NO.
Terrain / Norway

Glacier Svartisen (26,41) (Borger) : Move the ice 1 hex SE. This glacier should be placed close to Swedish border.
5 Voters : 20 % YES, 80 % NO.
Terrain / Norway


The mods who were made are :

Gothenburg
Vänern
Vättern
Karlskrona
Railroad Gothenburg-Stockholm
Iron ore of Gällivare & Kiruna 1
Strait from Copenhagen to Malmo
Strait from Helsingor (NW Copenhagen) to Helsingborg (NW Malmo)
Clear hex (Røros, east of lake) 2
Clear hex (Finnmark)
Coast south of Vaasa 2
Mountain hex 35,37 Changed to Forest.

[Toed]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

NEW Lake Hjälmaren (39,41 NW) (c92nichj) : Add.
1 Voters : 100 % YES, 0 % NO.
Lake /

I would have to vote No. Seems to me that Mälaren (the lake west of Stockholm) and Hjälmaren are already represented as one lake on current map. Not perfect but better than this movement in my opinion.

I have one more suggestion. How about naming Gothenburg by its Swedish name of Göteborg. Seems to fit in with the usage of åäö in other Nordic names.

[Froonp]

I would have to vote No. Seems to me that Mälaren (the lake west of Stockholm) and Hjälmaren are already represented as one lake on current map. Not perfect but better than this movement in my opinion.

Humm, you may be right, and adding Hjälmaren in the place where the railway was if moved west is not as good as I thought initialy.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

Removing those with 100% No is worth doing too.

On renaming Boden, this is only text, with no effect on game play. So let's call it "Luleå (Boden)" putting both names on the map. There's nothing else happening up there so it doesn't create clutter.

[Peter Stauffenberg]

ORIGINAL: Toed
I have one more suggestion. How about naming Gothenburg by its Swedish name of Göteborg. Seems to fit in with the usage of åäö in other Nordic names.

If we do this the we have to change the spelling to native language for a lot of cities. To name a few:
* Copenhagen => København
* Munich => München
* Nuremberg => Nürnberg
* Cologne => Köln
* Moscow => Moskva
* Warsaw => Warszawa
* Vienna => Wien
* Prague => Praha

I guess you get my point. So I think we can use the English spelling of the city if such a name exists. For many of the
smaller Nordic cities there simply are no English spelling. What they simply do is to make the ø (ö) become o, æ (ä)
become a or e and å become a. For example Malmo instead of Malmö, Tromso instead of Tromsø, Bodo instead of Bodø,
Alesund instead of Ålesund.

I think we can live with those minor "mistakes". I don't know if all people can read Scandinavian letters with the Windows
Western European (ISO encoding or some of the other encodings. If the answer is yes then we can easily write Tromsø,
but if some players see the ? sign or some other strange letter instead of the ø then we should write Tromso so we ensure
the name is readable to everybody. I can't answer this question because I use an encoding showing the Scandinavian letters
correctly. Our main focus should be to make those cities readable for every player and make every player have a feeling of
where this city is located. I think a lot of people know Copenhagen, but then maybe don't know the local København. So if they
see a local city they have never heard about before they may start wondering if it's the same as the city they know in the
area.

So I feel we can easily use the English spelling for the cities on the MWIF map. I'm so used to them from every wargame I've
played so won't mind. [;)]

[Peter Stauffenberg]

ORIGINAL: Toed

ORIGINAL: Froonp

NEW Lake Hjälmaren (39,41 NW) (c92nichj) : Add.
1 Voters : 100 % YES, 0 % NO.
Lake /

I would have to vote No. Seems to me that Mälaren (the lake west of Stockholm) and Hjälmaren are already represented as one lake on current map. Not perfect but better than this movement in my opinion.

I have one more suggestion. How about naming Gothenburg by its Swedish name of Göteborg. Seems to fit in with the usage of åäö in other Nordic names.

Maybe we can try an alternative way.

* We remove the NW hexside of lake Mälaren in the hex 1xNE of the port Norrköping. We also remove the strait arrows.
* Now lake Hjälmaren can be placed in the NE hexside in the hex 1xNW of the port Norrköping.

I think lake Mälaren is maybe too long and by doing this we have room to add lake Hjälmaren. Is this a good idea?

Here is some interesting information about lake Mälaren:
http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=1494949

It was earlier a salt water fjord and only turned into a lake during the 12th century.

[Peter Stauffenberg]

NEW Lake Hjälmaren (39,41 NW) (c92nichj) : Add.
1 Voters : 100 % YES, 0 % NO.
Lake /

I vote YES to this if we make lake Mälaren 1 hexside smaller.

Boden Fortified (27,46) (Toed) : Fortify hex all directions
5 Voters : 80 % YES, 20 % NO.
Fortification / Sweden

I vote YES to this. Will the hex then be called Luleå / Boden? I fort here could
help Sweden defend against an attack from Finnish territory.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: Borger Borgersen

ORIGINAL: Toed

ORIGINAL: Froonp
NEW Lake Hjälmaren (39,41 NW) (c92nichj) : Add.
1 Voters : 100 % YES, 0 % NO.
Lake /

I would have to vote No. Seems to me that Mälaren (the lake west of Stockholm) and Hjälmaren are already represented as one lake on current map. Not perfect but better than this movement in my opinion.

I have one more suggestion. How about naming Gothenburg by its Swedish name of Göteborg. Seems to fit in with the usage of åäö in other Nordic names.

Maybe we can try an alternative way.

* We remove the NW hexside of lake Mälaren in the hex 1xNE of the port Norrköping. We also remove the strait arrows.
* Now lake Hjälmaren can be placed in the NE hexside in the hex 1xNW of the port Norrköping.

I think lake Mälaren is maybe too long and by doing this we have room to add lake Hjälmaren. Is this a good idea?

Here is some interesting information about lake Mälaren:
http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=1494949

It was earlier a salt water fjord and only turned into a lake during the 12th century.

I think the best is to leave it as it is [:)].

[Peter Stauffenberg]

I also vote YES to move Bergen and the rail line to Bergen the way it's shown on the latest MWIF map of Scandinavia. Now the
coast lines look really nice. Some of the tiny islands could maybe be removed, but besides that I think the look of the fjords there are very good.

It's so good I hope a similar great job could be done to the look of the coast lines further north in Norway (without changing the terrain in the hexes). I think particularly about the area from Trondheim to Narvik and the Lofoten and Vesterålen area north west of Narvik. It is possible to have a try and post the new coast lines here for us to enjoy? [:)]

[Froonp]

In the sum up of votes yesterdays I forgot one :

NEW Sea Zone Boundary North Sea - Norwegian Sea () (ullern) : Go to hex (33,34), halfway between Trondheim & Bergen.
2 Voters : 100 % YES, 0 % NO.
Sea Zone /

[Froonp]

I also vote YES to move Bergen and the rail line to Bergen the way it's shown on the latest MWIF map of Scandinavia. Now the coast lines look really nice. Some of the tiny islands could maybe be removed, but besides that I think the look of the fjords there are very good.

Thanks for the comment.
I agree for the tiny islands, I used too much the copy paste feature [:D].

It's so good I hope a similar great job could be done to the look of the coast lines further north in Norway (without changing the terrain in the hexes). I think particularly about the area from Trondheim to Narvik and the Lofoten and Vesterålen area north west of Narvik. It is possible to have a try and post the new coast lines here for us to enjoy?

I would love too.
But I have troubles finding a map simple enough to re-draw in onthe MWiF map. A map simple enough for me is for example the one posted on post #94. I used the one on the right to make the Kristiansand to Trondheim coasts.

Would the one of post #94 on the left would be good enough for the coastlines ?

[Peter Stauffenberg]

I also wonder if the lake in northern Sweden (just south of the resources) is maybe too big. Lake Hornavan? It covers 4 hexsides and seems to be bigger than even lake Vänern and lake Vättern. That can't be true.

Look at this link for a map of these lakes in northern Sweden:
http://www.map-of-sweden.co.uk/map-of-norrbotten.htm

I know the Mercator distortion is bigger here and therefore it can look bigger than it is. But I propose to make the lake look thinner similar to the other lakes in the north of Sweden and maybe remove north-westernmost hexside that crosses the Norwegian border. Then you have a 3 hexside lake that is still quite big. If it's drawn a bit thinner then it doesn't look so dominant.

What do you think?

Is it just my eyes deceiving me or has the hexgrid disappeared inside the Russian lake Onega and in the NW corner of lake Ladoga?

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: Borger Borgersen
I also wonder if the lake in northern Sweden (just south of the resources) is maybe too big. Lake Hornavan? It covers 4 hexsides and seems to be bigger than even lake Vänern and lake Vättern. That can't be true.

Look at this link for a map of these lakes in northern Sweden:
http://www.map-of-sweden.co.uk/map-of-norrbotten.htm

I know the Mercator distortion is bigger here and therefore it can look bigger than it is. But I propose to make the lake look thinner similar to the other lakes in the north of Sweden and maybe remove north-westernmost hexside that crosses the Norwegian border. Then you have a 3 hexside lake that is still quite big. If it's drawn a bit thinner then it doesn't look so dominant.

I may have drew the lakes of Sweden and Finland a bit too wide, but this is partly because I wanted to cover the underlying Lake hexside graphic. also, if I drew if slimer, I would have benn obliged to follow more closely the hexsides, and the lake would look too angular. I hope the graphic artist will come up with something better.

Is it just my eyes deceiving me or has the hexgrid disappeared inside the Russian lake Onega and in the NW corner of lake Ladoga?

Yes, I do not bother to try to put an hexagonal grid on the lake I paint. They will be there on the MWiF final map, but on my drew maps I do not take the time to do this. Drawing the coastlines from Trondheim to Kristiansand took mea nearly 2 hours of drawing erasing drawing erasing. But I'm very happy of te result.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Borger Borgersen

ORIGINAL: Toed
I have one more suggestion. How about naming Gothenburg by its Swedish name of Göteborg. Seems to fit in with the usage of åäö in other Nordic names.

If we do this the we have to change the spelling to native language for a lot of cities. To name a few:
* Copenhagen => København
* Munich => München
* Nuremberg => Nürnberg
* Cologne => Köln
* Moscow => Moskva
* Warsaw => Warszawa
* Vienna => Wien
* Prague => Praha

I guess you get my point. So I think we can use the English spelling of the city if such a name exists. For many of the
smaller Nordic cities there simply are no English spelling. What they simply do is to make the ø (ö) become o, æ (ä)
become a or e and å become a. For example Malmo instead of Malmö, Tromso instead of Tromsø, Bodo instead of Bodø,
Alesund instead of Ålesund.

I think we can live with those minor "mistakes". I don't know if all people can read Scandinavian letters with the Windows
Western European (ISO encoding or some of the other encodings. If the answer is yes then we can easily write Tromsø,
but if some players see the ? sign or some other strange letter instead of the ø then we should write Tromso so we ensure
the name is readable to everybody. I can't answer this question because I use an encoding showing the Scandinavian letters
correctly. Our main focus should be to make those cities readable for every player and make every player have a feeling of
where this city is located. I think a lot of people know Copenhagen, but then maybe don't know the local København. So if they
see a local city they have never heard about before they may start wondering if it's the same as the city they know in the
area.

So I feel we can easily use the English spelling for the cities on the MWIF map. I'm so used to them from every wargame I've
played so won't mind. [;)]

Thereby explaining why my last name is spelled Hokanson.

[Peter Stauffenberg]

ORIGINAL: Froonp
I would love too.
But I have troubles finding a map simple enough to re-draw in onthe MWiF map. A map simple enough for me is for example the one posted on post #94. I used the one on the right to make the Kristiansand to Trondheim coasts.

Would the one of post #94 on the left would be good enough for the coastlines ?

The eastern map of post #94 is definitely good enough to draw the terrain up to Trondheim and little bit further.

I found another map of Norway you may use to draw the coast lines further north. It's embedded into this message. Here is the link if you want the original map:
http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/europe/norway_pol96.jpg