Odd Assumptions

[Sardonic]

I am puzzled by the assumption that France will be able to massage victory conditions to gain
effectively automatic victory points.

Why is that?

When I play, and I usually play Spain, I never surrender. I always give my fleets to the Brits.
In fact in some games, I DOW on the English JUST to surrender to them, and give them my fleets.
This requires a accomodating English player.

However, allowing th English to use your fleets, is surely better that having him SINK, those fleets.

Speaking soley as Spain of course.

To surrender to France, negates your greatest advantage. Terrain. He doesnt want to stay around inside
Spain. Sure he can occupy Madrid, and so what? Were you actually getting that much cash anyways?

Make him hunt down and capture each capital, and force a surrender. In money alone it will cost him.
If the English help, it may not be that easy for him to take them all.

By caving in to France, yes you preserve the possibility of 'eventual' victory. But you also, allow the French player
the luxury of not actually fighting.

He gains no points, unless he defeats corp. Is there some reason you absolutely MUST field one?
Read the rules about what generate Political Points.
Storming a Fortress is one way.

To meet Napoleon in the field, is to give him the advantage. Why do that?

You can always pile up troops in cities and get them back after the surrender.

[Murat]

ORIGINAL: Sardonic

When I play, and I usually play Spain, I never surrender. I always give my fleets to the Brits.
In fact in some games, I DOW on the English JUST to surrender to them, and give them my fleets.
This requires a accomodating English player.

How? You cannot just hand over corps to an enemy. If England is 'using' your fleets it's under aliiance and combined move, something that is bad for Britain, especially if you are not a threat.

However, allowing th English to use your fleets, is surely better that having him SINK, those fleets.

Speaking soley as Spain of course.

Why do you care? You seem to have no use for them any way, let them be sunk. Better to let Britain be neutral and use them for your own goals.

To surrender to France, negates your greatest advantage. Terrain. He doesnt want to stay around inside
Spain. Sure he can occupy Madrid, and so what? Were you actually getting that much cash anyways?

Make him hunt down and capture each capital, and force a surrender. In money alone it will cost him.
If the English help, it may not be that easy for him to take them all.

By caving in to France, yes you preserve the possibility of 'eventual' victory. But you also, allow the French player
the luxury of not actually fighting.

So you are going to start this war? And you want Civil Unrest? I am guessing you play the optional rules where Civil Unrest does not remove you from the game. France needs 1 ally, any ally. With that it is just a matter of time before France will turn their attentions your way and you get what you ask for. Meahwhile your buddy Britain will sink those fleets at the first chance, Britain doesn't need your ships to rule the board, he just needs them gone.

He gains no points, unless he defeats corp. Is there some reason you absolutely MUST field one?
Read the rules about what generate Political Points.
Storming a Fortress is one way.

To meet Napoleon in the field, is to give him the advantage. Why do that?

You can always pile up troops in cities and get them back after the surrender.

So no army either? France can have a war with you that you declare, without any threat of you coming over his border, which means that he can crush the Central Powers at full strength before turning on you WITH BRITAIN and eliminating you from that corner of the board. Solidly the worst Spain plan I have ever seen. Still above the Russian Winter Death March to Sweden but just.

[Sardonic]

I cant imagine where you got any of that.

Why would Spain declare war upon France? He doesnt need to do that?

England is allowed to choose Spanish Fleets to use as his own as a victory condition.
Not unlike 18 months peace.

It matters not at all that France CAN defeat Spain. What matters is that he gains a minimum of political points doing that.
Yes indeed you can stomp about the map capturing troops that peace will make you give back.
But none on that, will gain you political points.

Yes England CAN sink your fleets, somewhat easily. And if he does that, while you were being so accomodating.
Then you at least know who NOT to trust in another game. In such a case, you sell your soul to France and do whatever he asks you to do.

I play with the rule that a maximum of three provinces can be lost by any power also.
The rule IS there, it hardly matters if you dont like it.

Surrendering to France w/o forcing him to earn the victory, is the easiest way tio ensure he wins.

[ktotwf]

Lame strategy. This isn't Diplomacy.

[yammahoper]

I'm of the opinion the game goes best when Spain does not ally with France.  It doesnt mean Spain must ally with GB though.  As GB I have fought SP fpr Portugal.  I have also let SP have portugal to make and keep an ally.  I have played GB a lot and only once have found a need to sink SP ships.  I have also been SP and invaded by FR, and I think Sardonics strategy works very well against the FR.  Bleed them.  Make him go deep.  Cut supply and force a forage.  This works very well if the GB lends a few corps and navies can be used for moving.  Even w/o GB, the fight is very costly towards the FR, and that is the point.  If FR wants to win, the SP have to let him know it will cost him, not just factors and money, but probably the game.  After three invasions of SP in our games, no FR player was ever willing to go to war in SP again.  Most FR just offered a few Italian minors, like naples, to the SP player, and directed them towards Africa and TU.  Meanwhile, the other majors hope and pray for the FR to invade SP because the end result is much like US in Iraq or Isreal in Lebenon...ugly.
 
yamma

[Murat]

ORIGINAL: Sardonic

England is allowed to choose Spanish Fleets to use as his own as a victory condition.
Not unlike 18 months peace.

England can chose a CORPS on loan, not a fleet, not artillery, not cav.

I play with the rule that a maximum of three provinces can be lost by any power also.
The rule IS there, it hardly matters if you dont like it.

Surrendering to France w/o forcing him to earn the victory, is the easiest way tio ensure he wins.

Even MORE in France's favor. France cannot lose dominance and your threat is now non-existent to them. they can let you sit until you declare war and then just attack anything you send into France.

Allying with Britain is a valid strategy but you cannot just give Britain your country. You need to pursue your own strategy (see other 2 threads) and use your fleets and armies for SPANISH gain.

[Sardonic]

Actually I have seen many games where Spain has either won, or come in second, just thru economic manipulation.
The moral is, dont bid high.

If France doesnt invade, then simply let England use Spain to stage in.

[hlj]

ORIGINAL: Sardonic

England is allowed to choose Spanish Fleets to use as his own as a victory condition.
Not unlike 18 months peace.

I am not familiar with that rule, It is not one of the victory conditions from the victory condition chart. Can you post it?

ORIGINAL: Sardonic

Yes England CAN sink your fleets, somewhat easily. And if he does that, while you were being so accomodating.
Then you at least know who NOT to trust in another game. In such a case, you sell your soul to France and do whatever he asks you to do.

No, if he did it you would know that he didnt trust you after the 18 months, and you would know that he wouldnt have to fear spain even though he sold his soul to france.

To say that you wouldnt trust that player in another game, is in my oppinion wrong. I as spain would never give my ships to GB and I would always expect GB to try and take them from me.

ORIGINAL: Sardonic

I play with the rule that a maximum of three provinces can be lost by any power also.
The rule IS there, it hardly matters if you dont like it.

I play with that rule too

ORIGINAL: Sardonic

Surrendering to France w/o forcing him to earn the victory, is the easiest way tio ensure he wins.

I think you are right about that. But the best way to force him to earn the victory is not to give your fleet to GB.

[Sardonic]

ORIGINAL: hlj

ORIGINAL: Sardonic

England is allowed to choose Spanish Fleets to use as his own as a victory condition.
Not unlike 18 months peace.

I am not familiar with that rule, It is not one of the victory conditions from the victory condition chart. Can you post it?

ORIGINAL: Sardonic

Yes England CAN sink your fleets, somewhat easily. And if he does that, while you were being so accomodating.
Then you at least know who NOT to trust in another game. In such a case, you sell your soul to France and do whatever he asks you to do.

No, if he did it you would know that he didnt trust you after the 18 months, and you would know that he wouldnt have to fear spain even though he sold his soul to france.

To say that you wouldnt trust that player in another game, is in my oppinion wrong. I as spain would never give my ships to GB and I would always expect GB to try and take them from me.

ORIGINAL: Sardonic

I play with the rule that a maximum of three provinces can be lost by any power also.
The rule IS there, it hardly matters if you dont like it.

I play with that rule too

ORIGINAL: Sardonic

Surrendering to France w/o forcing him to earn the victory, is the easiest way tio ensure he wins.

I think you are right about that. But the best way to force him to earn the victory is not to give your fleet to GB.

You cant make someone trust you. All you can be is trustworthy. If the Brit wants to play that way. then he does.
The game lasts 120 turns. It is only 45 ships.

A Spain dedicated to a revenge strategy, is surely worse than one that was actively helping you.

I can see Spain delibretly feeding Political Points to inflate France's score. And Englnd would have no one to blame but
himself.

But I dont see Spain winning, constantly surrendering to France.

[Soult]

ORIGINAL: Sardonic

I am puzzled by the assumption that France will be able to massage victory conditions to gain
effectively automatic victory points.

Why is that?

When I play, and I usually play Spain, I never surrender. I always give my fleets to the Brits.
In fact in some games, I DOW on the English JUST to surrender to them, and give them my fleets.

well... you must have some houserules to do so, cause it isn´t possible that way by the of original rules.
And Napoleon would really be right to remove a spanish King acting that weak
It is possible to play Spain in a balance between France and GB, and to go for your own goals. You desribe a Spain that is somewhat close to a british appendix, is it really what you like ? [;)]
In my last game as Spain I had an agreement that in the end when GB declared war on Denmark, I was the one to controll it again GB, decalred war on GB the same moment, allied with France, had troops and ships ready by setup for an invasion, the british player did land some troops in Denmark( so no lapse of war). The next diplomatic phase I agreed about an informale peace with GB, Russia later got my "moral support" as promised when he took Sweden, I agreed with France that I would never be part of a coalition against it, told GB that I will never support a french invasion as long as GB leaves me alone in Portgal and North Afrika, etc., just imagine the rest or think about the way you would act in this position, it was really fun. No, we did not finish the game, we played ~ to 1809 (?), perhapse at some time later there would have been a decision between F and GB... or Spain would become a target of anybody being to close to win the game, who knows.
All I want to say is this: EiA is sucha great game because there is a real chance for every nation. And not just as appendix [:)]

[Sardonic]

ORIGINAL: Soult

ORIGINAL: Sardonic

I am puzzled by the assumption that France will be able to massage victory conditions to gain
effectively automatic victory points.

Why is that?

When I play, and I usually play Spain, I never surrender. I always give my fleets to the Brits.
In fact in some games, I DOW on the English JUST to surrender to them, and give them my fleets.

well... you must have some houserules to do so, cause it isn´t possible that way by the of original rules.
And Napoleon would really be right to remove a spanish King acting that weak
It is possible to play Spain in a balance between France and GB, and to go for your own goals. You desribe a Spain that is somewhat close to a british appendix, is it really what you like ? [;)]
In my last game as Spain I had an agreement that in the end when GB declared war on Denmark, I was the one to controll it again GB, decalred war on GB the same moment, allied with France, had troops and ships ready by setup for an invasion, the british player did land some troops in Denmark( so no lapse of war). The next diplomatic phase I agreed about an informale peace with GB, Russia later got my "moral support" as promised when he took Sweden, I agreed with France that I would never be part of a coalition against it, told GB that I will never support a french invasion as long as GB leaves me alone in Portgal and North Afrika, etc., just imagine the rest or think about the way you would act in this position, it was really fun. No, we did not finish the game, we played ~ to 1809 (?), perhapse at some time later there would have been a decision between F and GB... or Spain would become a target of anybody being to close to win the game, who knows.
All I want to say is this: EiA is sucha great game because there is a real chance for every nation. And not just as appendix [:)]

Spain doesnt need to fight any battles to win.
Just bid low

[Murat]

ORIGINAL: Sardonic

Spain doesnt need to fight any battles to win.
Just bid low

So now that we called you on the fact that you have ignored the rules, you fall back on this. Well again, you are wrong. Britain wins by default and Spain can be hit a hard set back by Britain subtracting VP from Spain. Or France can rampage Spain between wars with the East. Or Turkey can go after the Ottomans. So Spain can be made to face the choice of fight or lose.

[Sardonic]

ORIGINAL: Murat

ORIGINAL: Sardonic

Spain doesnt need to fight any battles to win.
Just bid low

So now that we called you on the fact that you have ignored the rules, you fall back on this. Well again, you are wrong. Britain wins by default and Spain can be hit a hard set back by Britain subtracting VP from Spain. Or France can rampage Spain between wars with the East. Or Turkey can go after the Ottomans. So Spain can be made to face the choice of fight or lose.

You did? Which rules were those?

Yes Turkey can go after the Ottoman, so what?

You can still win, w/o fighting.

Yes Britain can subtract points from Spain. And?
Britain can subtract points from ANYONE.

I dont agree that France can rampage Spain so easily between Campaigns.

[Joisey]

ORIGINAL: Sardonic

I am puzzled by the assumption that France will be able to massage victory conditions to gain
effectively automatic victory points.

Why is that?

When I play, and I usually play Spain, I never surrender. I always give my fleets to the Brits.
In fact in some games, I DOW on the English JUST to surrender to them, and give them my fleets.
This requires a accomodating English player.

However, allowing th English to use your fleets, is surely better that having him SINK, those fleets.

Speaking soley as Spain of course.

To surrender to France, negates your greatest advantage. Terrain. He doesnt want to stay around inside
Spain. Sure he can occupy Madrid, and so what? Were you actually getting that much cash anyways?

Make him hunt down and capture each capital, and force a surrender. In money alone it will cost him.
If the English help, it may not be that easy for him to take them all.

By caving in to France, yes you preserve the possibility of 'eventual' victory. But you also, allow the French player
the luxury of not actually fighting.

He gains no points, unless he defeats corp. Is there some reason you absolutely MUST field one?
Read the rules about what generate Political Points.
Storming a Fortress is one way.

To meet Napoleon in the field, is to give him the advantage. Why do that?

You can always pile up troops in cities and get them back after the surrender.

Well, this has to be the most SERVILE Spanish strategy I've seen. [8|]

[Sardonic]

ORIGINAL: Joisey

ORIGINAL: Sardonic

I am puzzled by the assumption that France will be able to massage victory conditions to gain
effectively automatic victory points.

Why is that?

When I play, and I usually play Spain, I never surrender. I always give my fleets to the Brits.
In fact in some games, I DOW on the English JUST to surrender to them, and give them my fleets.
This requires a accomodating English player.

However, allowing th English to use your fleets, is surely better that having him SINK, those fleets.

Speaking soley as Spain of course.

To surrender to France, negates your greatest advantage. Terrain. He doesnt want to stay around inside
Spain. Sure he can occupy Madrid, and so what? Were you actually getting that much cash anyways?

Make him hunt down and capture each capital, and force a surrender. In money alone it will cost him.
If the English help, it may not be that easy for him to take them all.

By caving in to France, yes you preserve the possibility of 'eventual' victory. But you also, allow the French player
the luxury of not actually fighting.

He gains no points, unless he defeats corp. Is there some reason you absolutely MUST field one?
Read the rules about what generate Political Points.
Storming a Fortress is one way.

To meet Napoleon in the field, is to give him the advantage. Why do that?

You can always pile up troops in cities and get them back after the surrender.

Well, this has to be the most SERVILE Spanish strategy I've seen. [8|]

The point of the game is to WIN. Not look good in the PR

[Joisey]

But if Spain is so thoroughly subject to the whims of France, why expect France to let Spain win?
 
Even if just in a passive aggressive way, like marching the French corps 4 provinces away to engage in battle, leaving the Spanish corps tagging along for the PP behind:  "Oh, I'm really sorry the battle happened like that, but I had to hit him this turn!  Too bad that your guys couldn't keep up."

[McGuire]

ORIGINAL: Sardonic

The point of the game is to WIN. Not look good in the PR

Sorry to disagree, but winning the game is NOT the point!
Who ever wins or loses - I don't care as long as it's fun!
OK! If I'm the one to win AND I have fun - even better!

But I sure as heck won't have an ouce of fun just sitting back and waiting for the economic manipulation to win the game for me!

If I fight, I might lose! If I do diplomacy, I might get into some situation!
But from my point of view: THAT'S THE GAME!
And not chickening out to every side....

[Roads]

I think you shouldn't be bidding for Spain if that's your attitude to the game.

The diplomatic game with Spain can be every bit as interesting as the military game for someone else.

The question here is what should Spain do when France comes knocking for PPs, as she almost inevitably will. If your first thought is that you should fight the French, your Spain isn't going to do well. There are really only two rational ways for Spain to deal with a French invasion
1) Run away and surrender as soon as possible.
2) Run away and make France pay to get a surrender.

The entire Spanish army can beat isolated French corps but that's about it. Fighting France gives him PP, loses you PP, and wipes out your army. None of that is to your advantage.

The advantage of the first approach is that you lose minimal PPs, maintain your income and can go back to pursuing other goals immediately. The disadvantage is that France will be back for a few more PPs as soon as it's convenient for him. Spain can afford to lose those PPs to France, but it makes winning a lot harder.

The advantage to the second approach is that you deter France from hitting you every couple of years. You can seriously hurt him, and with naval movement you might be able to get some PP by hitting those isolated French corps. The disadvantages is that your fleet is now at Britain's mercy, and you'll be spending a lot of time doing little but making other countries' lives easier.

I don't see why getting you're corps off the map, garrisoning all capitals, and letting the guerillas bleed the French is necessarily such a bad plan. The only important thing is to conserve the fleet, and some sort of army.

[Sardonic]

ORIGINAL: McGuire

ORIGINAL: Sardonic

The point of the game is to WIN. Not look good in the PR

Sorry to disagree, but winning the game is NOT the point!
Who ever wins or loses - I don't care as long as it's fun!
OK! If I'm the one to win AND I have fun - even better!

But I sure as heck won't have an ouce of fun just sitting back and waiting for the economic manipulation to win the game for me!

If I fight, I might lose! If I do diplomacy, I might get into some situation!
But from my point of view: THAT'S THE GAME!
And not chickening out to every side....

Run away?

I advocate fighting the french, how is that running away?
I just dont advocate feeding them political points.
City Garrison can surrender w Honors Of War
You will get them back.

However, there are advantages to helping England. Unless the English simply decide to be unpleasant.

[Murat]

ORIGINAL: Sardonic

City Garrison can surrender w Honors Of War
You will get them back.

At attacker's option, not yours. In the case of your Spain, I would kill them.