Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion

[c92nichj]

I quite like the new map but have two comments:
a) Lake Mjösa(368 km2) looks to be bigger than Hjälmaren (484 km2)
b The bit of ocean north of stockholm looks strange, I suggest to remove it.

[lagen]

I vote for Add Turku. I think it was bigger port at the time than Hanko for example. Certainly bigger town than Oulu or Vaasa. I didn't find any facts but I think that there were only about 3-3.5M finns during WW2.

[Peter Stauffenberg]

ORIGINAL: ullern
Then to this other issue of small changes in Norway: I did send some mail to Patrice of-forum, and that the reason for some small bickering back and forth. I am quite happy with what he have done and how he responds. But I find it amusing that I just can’t get him to choose the Oslo solution I suggest. I have several times tried to make him do Oslo like this:



But he completely refuses.
The thing about the railway to Bergen is that it goes most directly northwards, even a little eastwards for quite a while out of Oslo. (Hence Patrices solution, because I showed him this on a map.) But it is completely separate from the Trondheim railorad, all but the first 500 meters from the Østbanen station.

Also I don’t like the Bergen railroad going through hex B. The previous solution was better. (So I changed that back on my picture.)

Enough said.

I agree with you on this. I live in Oslo so I should know. [:)] The hex 1xNW of Oslo should be forest instead of mountain. This hex contains areas like Hadeland and Toten and contains towns like Hønefoss, Jevnaker and Gjøvik. This is mostly forest terrain with also some nice farmlands. The forest terrain is like hills, but does not have the altitude to be called mountain. So is there any reason why this hex is drawn as a mountain hex and not a forest hex as Ullern suggests?

The railroad should go the way you drew. Østbanen railway station doesn't exist as a railway station anymore. It now only contains stores and restaurants. All trains from Oslo goes from Oslo central station. The rail line from Oslo to Bergen goes north ( but on a different rail line that the rail line to Trondheim) before it heads west and goes to Drammen. It goes northwards from Oslo in direction of Gjøvik (on the western shore of lake Mjøsa) till the railroad station called Roa. Then it heads west to Hønefoss. Now trains from Oslo to Bergen went westwards to Drammen and then northwards to Hønefoss.

Look here for details on the rail line map:
http://www.jernbaneverket.no/jernbanene ... nbanekart/

Look here for stations between Oslo and Bergen today:
http://www.nsb.no/internet/diverse/rute ... bergen.pdf

Look here for stations between Oslo and Gjøvik today (including Roa):
http://www.nsb.no/internet/diverse/rute ... gjovik.pdf

Roa is about 1 hour by train north of Oslo. in the direction of the western shore of lake Mjøsa. Then the rail line heads south west to Hønefoss and then to Bergen. So I believe Ullern's suggestion for the rail line is more correct than the last one drawn by Froonp.

[Toed]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

Given the latest comments, here is the Bergen-Stockholm area corrected.

- Oslo-Bergen Railway corrected. From Nils, it does not leave Oslo from the W or NW, but it leaves it like the Oslo-Trondheim railway, from the NE. Google Earth supports this.
- Hex south of Bergen corrected. From Nils, this is an Island hex. Google Earth supports this too. Moreover, this is more logical from a hex drawing point of view.
- Fjord south of Stokholm corrected. This is a lake. I redrew it accordingly, and the color show it clearly that it is not the sea. the Straits have been removed because there are not straits on Lakes. A question here for the Swedish people here knowing the area : Should there be a River hexside SE of Stockholm, linking the lake to the sea ?

Comments ?

I must say that you have done a very good job depicting Sweden and Norway. It looks really good.
I agree that a canal or river hexside would be appropriate SE of Stockholm.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: ullern

It all seems so clear now. WIF had Mälaren potraid as a fjord as a consequence all Swedes were secretly offended and therefore didn’t play WIF. _ I always wondered why there was so few Swedes compared to number of Norwegians playing WIF. [:D]

You're wrong, there are A LOT of WiF players. I know because I take care of ADG shipping of games in Europe, and I have a big share of the shipping for Sweden. There is a lot for the whole Scandinavia. I finished believing that you Scandinavian had a lot of money and free time [:D].

I like all the ideas presented. Especially Steve’s idea for a canal between Mälaren (Riddärfjorden) and the Baltic. Outstanding.

About this, I would prefer to have a learned opinion from someone who knows, because :
- before the mod, Stockholm was attackable from : 2 hexsides through straits, 1 normal hexside, 1 all sea hexside (MAR only).
- after the mod, Stockholm is attackable from : 1 hexside through Canal (if added) or normal, 1 normal hexside, 2 all sea / lake hexside (MAR only).
If an attack though a normal hexside is counted as 1, and an attack through a strait / canal / river is counted as 1/2, then Stockholm was attackable by 2, and now (without the canal) by 2 too. If we add the canal, it drops to 1,5, so Stockholm becomes harder to attack.
So I would need a solid information on how hard this body of water (canal ?) is to cross.

Also I have always wondered about that all sea hexside NW of Stockholm. I suppose it is Hedesundafjord, which despite it’s name fjord, quite clearly is a lake that ends 30 km from the sea. (river and another smaller lake in between the sea and the Hedesundafjord)

Looked to me as a fjord, well not a Norwegian fjord, but an advance of the sea within the land. Anyway, this won't be possible to change it for a lake, so, either it hampers movement from Stockholm to NW, and it stays as is, or it does not hamper, and it is drawn shorter.

Then to this other issue of small changes in Norway: I did send some mail to Patrice of-forum, and that the reason for some small bickering back and forth. I am quite happy with what he have done and how he responds. But I find it amusing that I just can’t get him to choose the Oslo solution I suggest. I have several times tried to make him do Oslo like this:



But he completely refuses.
The thing about the railway to Bergen is that it goes most directly northwards, even a little eastwards for quite a while out of Oslo. (Hence Patrices solution, because I showed him this on a map.) But it is completely separate from the Trondheim railorad, all but the first 500 meters from the Østbanen station.

Also I don’t like the Bergen railroad going through hex B. The previous solution was better. (So I changed that back on my picture.)

So be it. I must have understood wrongly what you wrote. I thought it went north enough to go from Oslo by the NE hexside. I'll correct this, and also the hex B.

Another thing :
Why is the hex NW of Oslo forest on your view ?
Presently it is mountain, on WiF FE it is mountain, on MWiF it is mountain, there were no proposal yet to make it Forest.

[Froonp]

But he completely refuses.
The thing about the railway to Bergen is that it goes most directly northwards, even a little eastwards for quite a while out of Oslo. (Hence Patrices solution, because I showed him this on a map.) But it is completely separate from the Trondheim railorad, all but the first 500 meters from the Østbanen station.

Hey, ullern, is this okay this way [:D] [:D] [:D] ?

[wfzimmerman]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

Here is what the map looks like, with the modification unanimously adopted (well, I also changed Karlsrona, even if it is not at 100% YES), and the latest proposal of ullern (with the railway to Bergen & Alpine hexsides slightly modified), and with the proposal for the Sea Area Boundary between the North Sea and the Norwegian Sea.

It is a long walk to Narvik!

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: wfzimmerman
It is a long walk to Narvik!

Be happy you did not see how long it was in the original CWiF map !!! [:D][:D]
In the modified map it is 18 hexes from Stavanger to Narvik.
In the original CWiF map it was 22 hexes.

[Toed]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

About this, I would prefer to have a learned opinion from someone who knows, because :
- before the mod, Stockholm was attackable from : 2 hexsides through straits, 1 normal hexside, 1 all sea hexside (MAR only).
- after the mod, Stockholm is attackable from : 1 hexside through Canal (if added) or normal, 1 normal hexside, 2 all sea / lake hexside (MAR only).
If an attack though a normal hexside is counted as 1, and an attack through a strait / canal / river is counted as 1/2, then Stockholm was attackable by 2, and now (without the canal) by 2 too. If we add the canal, it drops to 1,5, so Stockholm becomes harder to attack.
So I would need a solid information on how hard this body of water (canal ?) is to cross.

Hard to say. There are numerous lakes, inlets and the 'canal' itself you have to cross to reach Stockholm from the south. I resorted to using Google Earth and this map tool:
http://www.sweden.se/templates/cs/Map____2584.aspx

Just measuring (roughly using Google earth) distance to cross over water in most places are similar to The Rhen (Waal?) river at Nijmegen or longer and the parts were it is shorter is mostly inside the city of Södertälje. So it could be one or both a river and/or canal crossing to get up to Stockholm. Defenately not clear terrain.

[rambling on] Just using Google Earth I relised how many more small lakes there are in Sweden and Finland compared to Central European countries like Germany, France and Poland. Just watching any part of Sweden from 80 miles up you can easily count 20-30+ lakes. Doing the same down in central Europe it is more like 1-2 if any.[/rambling on]

[trees trees]

it might surprise a few people to learn that the Narvik rule is no longer part of WiF...we kept playing that way long after it disappeared.

[Froonp]

So it could be one or both a river and/or canal crossing to get up to Stockholm. Defenately not clear terrain.

So I would agree making this hexside a river / canal, but this increase the difficulty of assaulting Stockholm.

So, as Nils (ullern) pointed out previously, maybe we could get rid of the all sea hexside that lies NW of Stockholm, and replace it with a river hexside. Nils said it was small lakes, river, ponds, well, a river hexside seems fine to me. Morover, this gets the difficluty to assault Stockholm back to its initial level.

What do you think ?

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: trees trees
it might surprise a few people to learn that the Narvik rule is no longer part of WiF...we kept playing that way long after it disappeared.

What is the Narvik Rule ?

[composer99]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

ORIGINAL: trees trees
it might surprise a few people to learn that the Narvik rule is no longer part of WiF...we kept playing that way long after it disappeared.

What is the Narvik Rule ?

I believe he is referring to the rule where Germany can't ship the Swedish resources through the Baltic during the winter if the Allies control Narvik (or is that Oslo? I cannot recall).

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: composer99

ORIGINAL: Froonp

ORIGINAL: trees trees
it might surprise a few people to learn that the Narvik rule is no longer part of WiF...we kept playing that way long after it disappeared.

What is the Narvik Rule ?

I believe he is referring to the rule where Germany can't ship the Swedish resources through the Baltic during the winter if the Allies control Narvik (or is that Oslo? I cannot recall).

If that's the case, he's wrong, this rule still exists. See 8.2.10.

8.2.10 Iced-in ports
You can’t move naval units into or out of iced-in ports if the weather in the port hex is snow or blizzard. When returning to base during the end of turn stage (see 13.4) the weather is the weather during the last impulse of the turn.
If the last impulse of the turn was blizzard or snow in the Arctic weather zone, Germany can only ship the Swedish resources through the Baltic Sea area if Narvik is not controlled by an Allied major power [Designer’s Note: this represents the fact that the resources were transported through neutral Norwegian coastal waters during Winter].
You can’t transport resources (or build points) into or out of an iced-in port if the last impulse of the turn was blizzard or snow in the port hex.
You cannot trace an overseas supply path either out of, or into, an iced-in port if the weather in that hex is snow or blizzard.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

Here is a map I fetched from Yahoo! for the area around Stockholm. A rather wet place.

This shows some of the difficulty in translating real world terrain into a simplified single map hex in the game.

I am most concerned that we do not so change the terrain around Stockholm that it can no longer be invaded from the Baltic. If we remove all the all-sea hexsides that will be the situation.

I am less concerned about Patrice's analysis of 1.5 versus 2 attack hexes on Stockholm since to my mind attacking across a straits is only slightly easier than across a river. It only makes it easier for marines; a rather rare unit type for the Germans and the USSR (who are most likely to be involved here).

[Toed]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

So, as Nils (ullern) pointed out previously, maybe we could get rid of the all sea hexside that lies NW of Stockholm, and replace it with a river hexside. Nils said it was small lakes, river, ponds, well, a river hexside seems fine to me. Morover, this gets the difficluty to assault Stockholm back to its initial level.

What do you think ?

I would agree to this. There are some long lakes (Storfjärden, Bramsöfjärden and Hedesundafjärden) NW of Stockholm that combines with Dalälven(a river) that would hinder manuvering but just looking at maps I'd say it is easier to assault Stockholm from NW than from SW/SE. While you should certainly be able attack Stockholm from the Baltic Sea area doing so from the NW is not realistic. So a lake/river hexside to NW from Stockholm would be my choise. Stockholm should be open to invasion from the E and/or NE in my view.

Map illustrating with a blue line the path of Dalälven flowing down from Lake Siljan to the coast:

[Froonp]

I am most concerned that we do not so change the terrain around Stockholm that it can no longer be invaded from the Baltic. If we remove all the all-sea hexsides that will be the situation.

There is still the possibility to invade the hex to the NE and the one to the E, this is even better military speaking.

I am less concerned about Patrice's analysis of 1.5 versus 2 attack hexes on Stockholm since to my mind attacking across a straits is only slightly easier than across a river. It only makes it easier for marines; a rather rare unit type for the Germans and the USSR (who are most likely to be involved here).

I counted Straits as Rivers, and Lakes & All Sea hexsides as impassable. I've calculated it without marines.

About the "canal" south of Stockholm, we would better make it a river hexside, because a canal hexside could leave the possibility for the player to believe that ships can take it to enter the lake.

By the way, about Canals, you should also verify that both hexes tot he east of the Zuider Zee (Netherlands) are not invadable nor shore bombardable. In fact, simply taken, they should not be adjacent to the North Sea, and the Zuider Zee should be a Lake and not a bit of the North Sea.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

I am most concerned that we do not so change the terrain around Stockholm that it can no longer be invaded from the Baltic. If we remove all the all-sea hexsides that will be the situation.

There is still the possibility to invade the hex to the NE and the one to the E, this is even better military speaking.

I am less concerned about Patrice's analysis of 1.5 versus 2 attack hexes on Stockholm since to my mind attacking across a straits is only slightly easier than across a river. It only makes it easier for marines; a rather rare unit type for the Germans and the USSR (who are most likely to be involved here).

I counted Straits as Rivers, and Lakes & All Sea hexsides as impassable. I've calculated it without marines.

About the "canal" south of Stockholm, we would better make it a river hexside, because a canal hexside could leave the possibility for the player to believe that ships can take it to enter the lake.

By the way, about Canals, you should also verify that both hexes tot he east of the Zuider Zee (Netherlands) are not invadable nor shore bombardable. In fact, simply taken, they should not be adjacent to the North Sea, and the Zuider Zee should be a Lake and not a bit of the North Sea.

Ah, it was the removal of access to Stockholm from the SW that reduced the # of attack hexes. I like the hex NW to be across a river. The use of a river instead of a canal to the SE (simply because the word 'canal' has a special meaning in WIF - as Patrice said). And lastly the removal of the land hex either to the east or NE of Stockholm, so it can be invaded from the Baltic. Either one will do the trick.

This gets us back to 1 full hex and 2 half hexes for attacking Stockholm from land (as per WIF FE) plus a sea invasion from the Baltic (as per WIF FE).

[Froonp]

Here is how the Bergen - Stockholm area looks now, with the latest proposals.
I think this is very good.

[Froonp]

Here are the various modifications discussed, with the percentages of YES & NO.

I propose that the subject of the Finnish Borderlands be closed, and rejected.

I made bold the proposals who got only few answers.

About the subject of the Hjälmaren addition (which had for consequences of moving the Mälaren and adding river hexsides while removing all sea hexsides), albeit the few answers, it seems to be unanimously accepted by the people here (even I changed my vote to yes because the final result very good to me), so I propose this is closed and adopted.

Comments ?


Tampere (35,47) (Borger) : Add. Third largest city.
6 Voters : 50 % YES, 50 % NO.
City / Finland

Gothenburg (41,38) (Toed) : Renammed Göteborg.
3 Voters : 33 % YES, 67 % NO.
City, Minor Port /

Finnish Borderlands 1a (33,52) (Borger) : Become Finnish. No more Finnish borderlands.
5 Voters : 20 % YES, 80 % NO.
Country / Finland

Finnish Borderlands 1b (34,52) (Borger) : Become Finnish. No more Finnish borderlands.
5 Voters : 20 % YES, 80 % NO.
Country / Finland

Finnish Borderlands 1c (33,54) (Borger) : Become Russian. No more Finnish borderlands.
5 Voters : 60 % YES, 40 % NO.
Country / Finland

Lake Femunden (34,38 E) (Borger) : Remove.
5 Voters : 40 % YES, 60 % NO.
Lake / Norway

Lake Mjøsa (Mjosa) (36,38 E, NE) (Borger) : Add.
4 Voters : 75 % YES, 25 % NO.
Lake / Norway

Hjälmaren 1 (39,41 NW) (ullern) : Add. Need changing the hex west of Stockholm all Sea hexside.
5 Voters : 80 % YES, 20 % NO.
Lake /

Hjälmaren 2 - Mälaren (sequel of adding Hjälmaren) (38,43,SW) (c92nichj) : Make it a Lake on SW hexside (is a Fjord for the moment).
4 Voters : 100 % YES, 0 % NO.
Lake /

Hjälmaren 3 - Stockholm canal (sequel of adding Mälaren) (38,43,SE) (Froonp) : Add a River hexside to link to the sea.
3 Voters : 100 % YES, 0 % NO.
River /

Hjälmaren 4 - Stockholm river (sequel of adding canal) (38,43,NW) (Froonp) : Make the fjord a river.
3 Voters : 100 % YES, 0 % NO.
River /

Hjälmaren 5 - Clear hex NE Stockholm (37,43) (Steve) : Make All Sea (to allow for invasion of Stockholm)
2 Voters : 100 % YES, 0 % NO.
Terrain /

Boden Fortified (27,46) (Toed) : Add fortifications (1/2) on all hexsides.
5 Voters : 80 % YES, 20 % NO.
Fortification / Sweden

Boden (27,46) (Borger) : Renamme Luleå (Boden) (Lulea).
6 Voters : 83 % YES, 17 % NO.
Minor Port / Sweden

Bodø (Bodo) (26,41) (Borger) : Add. For supply reasons.
6 Voters : 50 % YES, 50 % NO.
Minor Port / Norway

Kirkenes (21,51) (ullern) : Add. For supply reasons.
4 Voters : 0 % YES, 100 % NO.
Minor Port / Norway

Tromsø (Tromso) (21,46) (Borger) : Add. For supply reasons.
6 Voters : 83 % YES, 17 % NO.
Minor Port / Norway

Turku (37,46) (Borger) : Add. Second largest Finnish city.
7 Voters : 71 % YES, 29 % NO.
Minor Port / Finland

Iron ore of Gällivare & Kiruna 2 (24,45) (c92nichj) : Move 1 hex SE.
5 Voters : 20 % YES, 80 % NO.
Resource / Sweden

Clear hex (Resource) (40,35) (ullern) : Change to Mountain.
4 Voters : 50 % YES, 50 % NO.
Terrain / Norway

Mountain hex (NW Oslo) (37,37) (ullern) : Change to Forest
2 Voters : 100 % YES, 0 % NO.
Terrain /

Glacier Svartisen (26,41) (Borger) : Move the ice 1 hex SE. This glacier should be placed close to Swedish border.
5 Voters : 20 % YES, 80 % NO.
Terrain / Norway

Sea Zone Boundary North Sea - Norwegian Sea (33,34) (ullern) : Go to hex (33,34), halfway between Trondheim & Bergen
2 Voters : 100 % YES, 0 % NO.
Sea Zone /