Kinder, gentler assaults

Seth · Post by **Seth** » Mon Jul 17, 2000 6:49 pm

I like to play generated battles as the defender. Several times recently, I have only been engaged by the infanty with artillery support. I merrily hose down the hordes of attackers, laughing that the computer was too dumb to buy tanks. Then I get to the end screen, and see that it had enough armor to totally wipe me out! Why didn't it show up? In one of these scenarios, it's possible that the enemy armor was foolishly deployed behind a river, but the other maps had no water.

Larry Holt · Post by **Larry Holt** » Mon Jul 17, 2000 7:03 pm

Originally posted by Seth:
... Then I get to the end screen, and see that it had enough armor to totally wipe me out! Why didn't it show up?...

What nationality and time was the AIP playing? What type of tanks and how long did the game last? If the AIP had slow tanks and the game didn't last too long, its possible that they just did not have time to drive to the front.

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An old soldier but not yet a faded one.
OK, maybe just a bit faded.

Seth · Post by **Seth** » Mon Jul 17, 2000 7:12 pm

Well, once I was Germans v. Soviets, and once UK v. US Army. Both lasted plenty long enough for even the slowest tanks to get to where I could see them, if they'd moved at all. Once, as Japanese v. Soviets in a WWII campaign (9/39 Nomonhan) I was attacked by at least 9 batteries of artillery, and nothing else.

Antonius · Post by **Antonius** » Mon Jul 17, 2000 7:21 pm

I've seen the opposite: the AI'tanks closing in so fast that they outrun their infantry support and of course were ambushed by my infantry.

Mike Wood · Post by **Mike Wood** » Mon Jul 17, 2000 7:53 pm

Hello...

Depending on a whole lot of variables, the computer opponent may buy a lot of tanks or artillery or infantry or a combination of these. And, the computer opponent may use combined arms or no. Sometimes it may hold armor in reserve, waiting until the infantry can locate the enemy armor or punch a whole in the enemy line, or it may just charge ahead with the armor, cruiser style.

This is intentional. We tried to make the computer opponent as unpredictable as possible, within the confines of the game engine. It may sometimes play stupidly. At least it isn't cheating. But, we did give it a number of options. That is why you will sometimes face battalions of tanks and other times, none at all.

Hope You enjoy the Game...

Michael Wood

[This message has been edited by Mike Wood (edited July 17, 2000).]

Seth · Post by **Seth** » Mon Jul 17, 2000 7:58 pm

Yes, but the thing is, it had plenty of tanks, and let it's infantry be utterly destroyed without budging them from wherever they were hidden. As the Germans, I even went so far as to charge the remaining squads with my half-tracks and SPAA. You would think it would use the armor. I wouldn't complain if it didn't buy any armor, but they were apparently having a tailgate party or something.

JJU57 · Post by **JJU57** » Mon Jul 17, 2000 9:05 pm

Originally posted by Seth:
Yes, but the thing is, it had plenty of tanks, and let it's infantry be utterly destroyed without budging them from wherever they were hidden. As the Germans, I even went so far as to charge the remaining squads with my half-tracks and SPAA. You would think it would use the armor. I wouldn't complain if it didn't buy any armor, but they were apparently having a tailgate party or something.

You missed the line in Mike's reply that says it was waiting to find your armor. Did you have any? He also said that sometimes these options cause the AI to act dumb. You probably had one of these.

If you play 20 scenarios and this happed each time then that's a problem. One or two times doesn't mean anything.

Seth · Post by **Seth** » Mon Jul 17, 2000 9:15 pm

Actually I didn't miss that line, but just to be clear, I opened up on them with everything. I charged my mortar carriers and my HQ squad out against the Americans. Anyone that had a gun was shooting. It has happened the last three battles I played. I'll keep trying. One theory that I have is that maybe if I can sneak a unit into the back, I might find them and trigger a response.

JJU57 · Post by **JJU57** » Mon Jul 17, 2000 10:06 pm

Seth,

You failed to mention if you had any armor. Did you? In the hundreds of games I've played I have yet to see the AI not use their armor. Of course I always had a couple of tanks myself.

Seth · Post by **Seth** » Mon Jul 17, 2000 10:12 pm

Course I had armor. I always have armor. Heh. Really though, that's immaterial, the AI should be supporting the attack with everything it bought. To be fair, the Americans had a bunch of jeeps show up, but they didn't stand up too well to Cromwells.

Don · Post by **Don** » Tue Jul 18, 2000 12:57 am

Seth,
I've found that the AI is a whole lot better at defense than offense. When attacking, it seems to just "rush in" blindly (when I tried it) and use no tactics at all. For scenario testing I tried "computer vs computer" but the AI just couldn't play the attacker well enough for an evaluation.
Try attacking the computer defense and see if it plays better.
Don

Michael Wermelin · Post by **Michael Wermelin** » Tue Jul 18, 2000 11:46 am

I have faced the same kind of problem. In two or three battles as german defending against Soviet and US I have noticed after the battle how large formations of enemy tanks just sit and wait, for what? In the battle against the US I had NO tanks, vs the Soviets I had four or five king tigers. But I did not expose them to the enemy. But it is really strange how an attacking force throws one fourth of its army against me, while the rest just sit and wait. The infantry came charging against me over a 10-15 hex wide and open field. Guess what happened. My MGs had fun! Strangly, the enemy seemed to know where my tanks were positioned. I kept them behind my objectives, on a road inside a forest. But a large amount of artillery rounds fell upon that very forest for many turns. The intelligence of the AIs force seems to be stunning good, but its attacking ability is awful. The AI could use more recon than it does now. The infantry must be supported in some way when charging upon a field, at least by heavy amount of smoke. I mean, the latest of these strange assaults took place in -45, the soviets were not stupid by then. The AI just seems to be unable to coordinate its forces in an attack.

[This message has been edited by Michael Wermelin (edited July 18, 2000).]

Warhorse · Post by **Warhorse** » Tue Jul 18, 2000 5:08 pm

Hmmm, I've yet to run into this problem?! In a campaign battle German vs. Britain in the desert right now, they are literally crushing my pockets of defense with loads of armor!! They've taken 4 out of five Panzers out on one hill, and even though the Panzers and the 88's are picking off Cruisers left and right, they still keep coming!! It's also interesting, that there even is some maneuvering in some of the spearheads to try and flank me, no kidding!!

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Mike Amos
Meine Ehre Heisst Treue

Seth · Post by **Seth** » Tue Jul 18, 2000 6:25 pm

I've experienced the nasty armored wave tactic, but only in meeting engagements. It's not that the AI never uses tanks, it just seems to have them sit out assaults. A theory that just occurred to me: the AI may be sending its infantry forward to try to find minefields. Joke's on them, I never buy any. I'll keep trying, but it's just not a challenge when all your units line up on the range, without fear of retaliation. I usually end up losing 2-3 men to infantry and the usual amount to any air/artillery that shows up.

Fabs · Post by **Fabs** » Tue Jul 18, 2000 8:00 pm

I find that the AI is a reasonable opponent in games where I assault as the human player.

Even then, it almost always mis-times and mis-handles counter-attacks.

Its behavior in games where it is trying to delay me or in meeting engagements can be questionable, but in attack it is simply inept.

There are so many artificial ways in which you can get it to do what you want and then rip it to pieces, it is no fun.

If you want to defend and you want a challenging game, you must play another human.

I have only ever played against the AI, because of time constraints (I never know how much time I can give the game over several days, and games that take longer than a couple of days to complete can't hold my interest). When I want to make things more interesting, I play hotseat against myself.

This takes longer, but can be more exciting if you can be impartial about who wins or loses the game.

You sometimes have to say "if I did not know that his infantry is waiting in that clump of bushes, I would send my recon/tank/squad in, so I will..."; if you are uncertain you can toss a coin and leave it to fate.

This approach is not so much about competing, as about observing what could have happened.

It is not perfect, and I would love to play against a human player if I could find someone who lives around the corner so that we could play hotseat and finish the games quickly.

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Fabs