Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion

[Toed]

The Stockholm area looks really nice now. Good work and thanks for beeing patient with us crazy Sweeds. [:)]

[Shannon V. OKeets]

Patrice,

I've decided on most of the suggested changes, going with the majority of forum members who were interested/knowledgeable enough to vote in all cases.

I think Gothenburg is slightly better than Göteborg. So I have decided on the former for the choice of names.

The only questionable issues remaining (to my eye) are:

Tampere (35,47) (Borger) : Add. Third largest city.
6 Voters : 50 % YES, 50 % NO.
City / Finland

Lake Femunden (34,38 E) (Borger) : Remove.
5 Voters : 40 % YES, 60 % NO.
Lake / Norway

Bodø (Bodo) (26,41) (Borger) : Add. For supply reasons.
6 Voters : 50 % YES, 50 % NO.
Minor Port / Norway

Clear hex (Resource) (40,35) (ullern) : Change to Mountain.
4 Voters : 50 % YES, 50 % NO.
Terrain / Norway

Now that's a much easier list to deal with.

If there is more discussion on these 4, let's hear it. I'll make some sort of a decision in the next 2 days on these too. Of course, my preference would be for the group to reach near-unanimous agreement, so I don't have to decide.

[Ullern]

ORIGINAL: Froonp
Another thing :
Why is the hex NW of Oslo forest on your view ?
Presently it is mountain, on WiF FE it is mountain, on MWiF it is mountain, there were no proposal yet to make it Forest.

A valid question.

After some digging in earlier files I found that I recived the map that way from Steve at 25 of july. I didn't notice the deviation and didn't change it.

It's veird how some suggestions comes to life _ but I think Borger is right when he says that the terrain along the railway to Hønefoss is forest, also most directly NW of Oslo is that, though some few places can probly be considered mountains. After som map checking I belive that the current mapping would place the Hønefoss in the midle of the hex 37,37. It's a really long time since I was up that road. But west of Hønefoss it's mountains isn't it? That would make about half the hex mountains. In which case I think we should keep it mountain. But I am not sure I am right about the terrain... Borger?

[Incy]

Tampere (35,47) (Borger) : Add. Third largest city.
6 Voters : 50 % YES, 50 % NO.
City / Finland

Pass

Lake Femunden (34,38 E) (Borger) : Remove.
5 Voters : 40 % YES, 60 % NO.
Lake / Norway

Yes (movement east<->west in this part of norway is more or less a non-starter in military terms. Femunden looks nice and slightly hinders east-west movment/combat, which is good)

Bodø (Bodo) (26,41) (Borger) : Add. For supply reasons.
6 Voters : 50 % YES, 50 % NO.
Minor Port / Norway

Yes. It's a big port, and today also has a really big airfield, much of the norwegian airforce is based there. The cold war U2 flights were typically based form Bodø!! The airport wasn't built before 1951, but the terrain certainly facilitates for aircraft, which is more than can be said for many parts of Norway. Plus I did my military service at the main north norwegian HQ near Bodø, so how can I vote no?? Bodø was not directly invaded in the initial german invasion, but was extensively bombed during the campaign, 400 of 600 downtown buildings were destroyed. Bodø is the second largest population centre in northern Norway, after Tromsø (it stillwasn't a huge place, 40K people today, 25K people in 68).

Clear hex (Resource) (40,35) (ullern) : Change to Mountain.
4 Voters : 50 % YES, 50 % NO.
Terrain / Norway

Yes. Let's face it, norwegian terrain is hell, unless you like skiing.

Now that's a much easier list to deal with.

If there is more discussion on these 4, let's hear it. I'll make some sort of a decision in the next 2 days on these too. Of course, my preference would be for the group to reach near-unanimous agreement, so I don't have to decide.


[/quote]

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
I've decided on most of the suggested changes, going with the majority of forum members who were interested/knowledgeable enough to vote in all cases.

So here iw what it looks for now.
Nils, I put Forest in the hex NW of Oslo on this map [:D].

[Froonp]

Lake Femunden (34,38 E) (Borger) : Remove.
5 Voters : 40 % YES, 60 % NO.
Lake / Norway

Yes (movement east<->west in this part of norway is more or less a non-starter in military terms. Femunden looks nice and slightly hinders east-west movment/combat, which is good)

Incy, the question was wether we should remove the Femunden Lake. You answered YES, but reading further your answer, I guess you meant YES to add it, didn't you ?

[Incy]

I agree with you on this. I live in Oslo so I should know. [:)] The hex 1xNW of Oslo should be forest instead of mountain. This hex contains areas like Hadeland and Toten and contains towns like Hønefoss, Jevnaker and Gjøvik. This is mostly forest terrain with also some nice farmlands. The forest terrain is like hills, but does not have the altitude to be called mountain. So is there any reason why this hex is drawn as a mountain hex and not a forest hex as Ullern suggests?

Nilsern and I also live in Oslo, in fact we're starting our next campaign this thursday. This time, the combined frensh-soviet forces will surly crush the nazis before they get to far!!! Send us a line if you want to come along and say hi (we play at slependen but transport can be arranged).

For the maps, I still miss straits accross sognefjord and nordfjord(2 longfjords north of Bergen). Nobody in thir right mind would try to walk around the shore of these fjord, the correct way is across (wich is often a few hundred meters rather than a few hundred kilometers!!)

[Incy]

err, correct...

ORIGINAL: Froonp

Lake Femunden (34,38 E) (Borger) : Remove.
5 Voters : 40 % YES, 60 % NO.
Lake / Norway

Yes (movement east<->west in this part of norway is more or less a non-starter in military terms. Femunden looks nice and slightly hinders east-west movment/combat, which is good)

Incy, the question was wether we should remove the Femunden Lake. You answered YES, but reading further your answer, I guess you meant YES to add it, didn't you ?

[Froonp]

Mountain hex (NW Oslo) (37,37) (ullern) : Change to Forest
2 Voters : 100 % YES, 0 % NO.

That would make about half the hex mountains. In which case I think we should keep it mountain. But I am not sure I am right about the terrain... Borger?

Humm, I made it forest in the map I just posted, assuming Steve decision was to say YES to it even if it only had 2 voters. Are you now telling me to make it back to Mountain ? (which is easy as it is still in the layer underside).

[Ullern]

ORIGINAL: c92nichj

I quite like the new map but have two comments:
a) Lake Mjösa(368 km2) looks to be bigger than Hjälmaren (484 km2)
b The bit of ocean north of stockholm looks strange, I suggest to remove it.

I agree there is still something there. I earlier belived Patrice would make Mälaren two lake hexes instead of one, but he didn't change the grapichs. It might be that he just didn't have time.

Right now I read the map this way: We have two big lakes, Hjälmaren and Mälaren each just one hex-side big, and then a two hex-side gap between them. And it's that last thing that I think is the error here. There is no two hex side gap between Hjälmaren and Mälaren, the gap is quite short.

Both lakes actually deserves to cover two hex sides, but due to the limited number of hex sides that is impossible. We need one hex side to function as the gap.

The neatest solution may actually be to leave grapichs for Mälaren as it is, and expand Hjälmaren east so that it covers two hex sides. In that case it would be more obvious that the Mälaren graphics does not imply that the hexside NW of (39,42) is blocked. While both lakes look more like their real sizes. And hence happy endings? [8D]

[Incy]

While we're at it, I think there should be manymore mountain passes.
Even today, there's not really a good road between Bergn and Oslo, even though there's now plenty of tunnels up to 15 kilometers longonthis stretch. Many of the passes are often closed in winter

ORIGINAL: Froonp

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
I've decided on most of the suggested changes, going with the majority of forum members who were interested/knowledgeable enough to vote in all cases.

So here iw what it looks for now.
Nils, I put Forest in the hex NW of Oslo on this map [:D].

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

Mountain hex (NW Oslo) (37,37) (ullern) : Change to Forest
2 Voters : 100 % YES, 0 % NO.

That would make about half the hex mountains. In which case I think we should keep it mountain. But I am not sure I am right about the terrain... Borger?

Humm, I made it forest in the map I just posted, assuming Steve decision was to say YES to it even if it only had 2 voters. Are you now telling me to make it back to Mountain ? (which is easy as it is still in the layer underside).

I have as wallpaper for my computer desktop the European map taken 3 or 4 months ago. At that point in time the hex NW of Oslo was Forest. I do not know for certain how it got changed to mountain, but I suspect it was Claes working from the material we had provided him (probably Nils' original set of modifications). Let's leave it as forest unless there is some strong reason to change it to mountain.

[Froonp]

While we're at it, I think there should be manymore mountain passes.
Even today, there's not really a good road between Bergn and Oslo, even though there's now plenty of tunnels up to 15 kilometers longonthis stretch. Many of the passes are often closed in winter

What are you calling "mountain passes" ?
Are you talking of Alpine hexsides ?

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: ullern

ORIGINAL: c92nichj
I quite like the new map but have two comments:
a) Lake Mjösa(368 km2) looks to be bigger than Hjälmaren (484 km2)
b The bit of ocean north of stockholm looks strange, I suggest to remove it.

I agree there is still something there. I earlier belived Patrice would make Mälaren two lake hexes instead of one, but he didn't change the grapichs. It might be that he just didn't have time.

Right now I read the map this way: We have two big lakes, Hjälmaren and Mälaren each just one hex-side big, and then a two hex-side gap between them. And it's that last thing that I think is the error here. There is no two hex side gap between Hjälmaren and Mälaren, the gap is quite short.

Both lakes actually deserves to cover two hex sides, but due to the limited number of hex sides that is impossible. We need one hex side to function as the gap.

The neatest solution may actually be to leave grapichs for Mälaren as it is, and expand Hjälmaren east so that it covers two hex sides. In that case it would be more obvious that the Mälaren graphics does not imply that the hexside NW of (39,42) is blocked. While both lakes look more like their real sizes. And hence happy endings? [8D]

No.

The difficulty you see here is due mostly to how the hexgrid is imposed on the terrain. This is a constant problem in developing game maps using a hex grid and has no easy solution. Some river/lakes (country boundaries too!) align nicely with the grid and present no problem. Others are out of alignment and cross in the middle of a hex instead of running down a hexside. That's just the way things work out.

Instead of counting hexsides, if you look at hexes, I think you'll find the map is reasonable. Fighting your way from Oslo to Stockholm means not having to cross water; while from Gothenburg to Stockholm, the attackers have to work their way around the lakes.

[Froonp]

About Mälaren & Hjälmaren position & size :

The neatest solution may actually be to leave grapichs for Mälaren as it is, and expand Hjälmaren east so that it covers two hex sides. In that case it would be more obvious that the Mälaren graphics does not imply that the hexside NW of (39,42) is blocked. While both lakes look more like their real sizes. And hence happy endings?

I've got another idea.
Hjälmaren : have it block the SW hexside of 38,42 (this is the hex west of Stockholm), and draw it a little longer to the west (up to half the hexside), but not blocking.
Mälaren : Leave it as it is for the blocking hexsides, but draw it slightly shorter (so that it reaches about 2/3rds inside the hex).

I say this because I also noticed that the distance beween the western tip of the Hjälmaren is about 60-65 km from the northern tip of the Vättern. Those 60-65 km deserve to be 2 hexsides too, and there is only 1 hexside between the lakes now. My solution would have 2 hexsides between them.

There are a lot of lakes in this crowded place, from a WiF & hexes point of view, and I think we should leave a bit more room between the 3 lakes for units to move and attack.

I'll draw it tomorrow to show you (unless there are loads of messages telling me this is nonsense [:D]).
Good night !

[Ullern]

I agree with Incy on the straits across Sognefjord and Nordfjord. But I think that one for each is adequate.

Suggestion:
For Nordfjord I am quite sure it should be (34,35) to (33,34) (Nordfjordeid)
For Sognefjorden I think the Leikanger crossing is the more propper one. That would be from hex (36,35) and _ hm _ straight north ... well hex (35,35).

About Incy's suggestion for more alpine hexes I agree that in theory there should be, but there simply ain't room for any more.&nbsp; There are two seperate mountain passes possible to use to go to Bergen. The southern one (by Geilo) is aproximately the one that follows the railroad, that road goes down to Hardangerfjorden. Then there is another one north of that that goes down to Sognefjorden. These two passes can be accesed from the east by multiple ways, and I belive the passes are in two different hexes. The most dificult part of going to Bergen I think was not the mountain pases but to get into hex (36,35). And that hex have just one hexside east where the railroad goes. That hexside could have been alpine, if it had not been for the fact that the railroad somehow make it through there anyway and WIF doesn't allow railroad and alpine across the same hex side.

Then there is a third pass that takes you to Haugesund.

I think it's fair that all these three passes are represented (and it was the way the map used to be in WIF FE board version anyway). So then I find litle place for more alpine hexes.

Well there is one place I can think of. That is in the area around Jostedalsbreen. (I have been thinking of that ice-hex as a big alpine hex, but that's wrong. it's quite possible to walk in ice - 3 for leg, 8 for mot.) Also on the way to Trondheim, Rondane could be marken with a alpine hex side SW of 34,38.

Right now I didn't mean to suggest these alpine additions, I just merely point out where I would put them if I was forced to add some more of them [X(]
I did mean to suggest the straits additions.

Nils

[Ullern]

I like this latest idea from Froonp. I already vote for that.

ORIGINAL: Froonp

About Mälaren & Hjälmaren position & size :

The neatest solution may actually be to leave grapichs for Mälaren as it is, and expand Hjälmaren east so that it covers two hex sides. In that case it would be more obvious that the Mälaren graphics does not imply that the hexside NW of (39,42) is blocked. While both lakes look more like their real sizes. And hence happy endings?

I've got another idea.
Hjälmaren : have it block the SW hexside of 38,42 (this is the hex west of Stockholm), and draw it a little longer to the west (up to half the hexside), but not blocking.
Mälaren : Leave it as it is for the blocking hexsides, but draw it slightly shorter (so that it reaches about 2/3rds inside the hex).

I say this because I also noticed that the distance beween the western tip of the Hjälmaren is about 60-65 km from the northern tip of the Vättern. Those 60-65 km deserve to be 2 hexsides too, and there is only 1 hexside between the lakes now. My solution would have 2 hexsides between them.

There are a lot of lakes in this crowded place, from a WiF & hexes point of view, and I think we should leave a bit more room between the 3 lakes for units to move and attack.

I'll draw it tomorrow to show you (unless there are loads of messages telling me this is nonsense [:D]).
Good night !

[Peter Stauffenberg]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

ORIGINAL: Froonp

Mountain hex (NW Oslo) (37,37) (ullern) : Change to Forest
2 Voters : 100 % YES, 0 % NO.

That would make about half the hex mountains. In which case I think we should keep it mountain. But I am not sure I am right about the terrain... Borger?

Humm, I made it forest in the map I just posted, assuming Steve decision was to say YES to it even if it only had 2 voters. Are you now telling me to make it back to Mountain ? (which is easy as it is still in the layer underside).

I have as wallpaper for my computer desktop the European map taken 3 or 4 months ago. At that point in time the hex NW of Oslo was Forest. I do not know for certain how it got changed to mountain, but I suspect it was Claes working from the material we had provided him (probably Nils' original set of modifications). Let's leave it as forest unless there is some strong reason to change it to mountain.

This hex is definitely forest. I travelled in this area as late as this June and I can tell you the mountains Ullern are talking about are further away from Hønefoss. I guess he is thinking of Norefjell and those mountains are possible to see in the horizon when we drive down to Hønefoss from Sollihøgda.

Remember also that this hex contains the west bank of southern lake Mjøsa and the area between Hønefoss and this area. These areas are called Hadeland and Toten and are considered to be some of the best farmlands of entire Norway (after Jæren close to Stavanger). So this hex contains small towns like Lunner, Jevnaker etc. Norefjell is just in the very northwest part of this hex. So if hexsides had been used then the NW hexside should have been mountain. But MWIF uses terrain in entire hexes and in my opinion the most accurate terrain to describe this hex is forest because forest is a good compromise between all terrain types there (some clear, some forest and a little mountain).

I drove in June from Oslo to Hønefoss and further to Lunner and over the hills to Gardermoen (where Oslo airport is now). Those hills were forested and not of very high altitude.

Look here for a map of the Buskerud county where you will see both Hønefoss and Norefjell:

http://www.fylkesguiden.no/buskerud/kart.htm

Oslo is partly shown on the south-east mapedge. You clearly see here that Norefjell is quite some distance from Hønefoss (which is almost in the middle of the hex 1xNW of Oslo).

This is a map showing the county of Oppland:

http://www.campingguiden.no/oppland/kart.htm

The yellow dot just to the SW of Oppland is Hønefoss (the center of our hex). You can in the SW part of Oppland see Jevnaker, Lunner and Toten (closer to lake Mjøsa). The map clearly shows that this area is partly clear with some hills of not very high altitude. Those hills are forested. As I told I have driven there as late as June.

We even had a work meeting at Norefjell a few years ago and I know that it takes a while to drive from Hønefoss to reach there. Norefjell is the closest real mountains to Oslo. In 1952 the alpine competitions were held there during the Oslo Winter Olympics.

So I agree with Steve that the hex 1xNW of Oslo is forest and not mountain. I guess we Norwegians are so used to our country being full of mountains we even call small hills for mountains. [;)] But in reality they are forested hills only. As a matter of fact the highest altitude in Norway is only 2469 m (or so). It's not much compared to most countries with mountain terrain. Our nice mountains were partly destroyed by the glaciers during the ice age. Therefore they don't look very sharp like the Alps etc. They also lost they altitude because the glaciers "gnawed" on the mountains for a very long time. But in return for this loss we got our nice fjords and valleys because the ice dug those out. And our fjords and valleys are of unique beauty. [:D]

[Froonp]

Here is my new shot at Stockholm Maze of Lakes.
I also added the straits in Norway.
I did not add Alpine hexes, becauseI'm uncomfortable with Alpine hexsides that are between a Forest and a Mountain. I know there are already, but I do not like it.

Also, I wondered about Straits if there were no strait hexside to be put between somewhere around Trondheim and the chunk of land west of it. In the 40s I mean.

Also, I hope you are all sure thoses straits I added were here in the 40s [:)].

[Neilster]

Our nice mountains were partly destroyed by the glaciers during the ice age. Therefore they don't look very sharp like the Alps etc. They also lost they altitude because the glaciers "gnawed" on the mountains for a very long time. But in return for this loss we got our nice fjords and valleys because the ice dug those out. And our fjords and valleys are of unique beauty. [:D]

Well, I think you'll find that Slartibartfast is responsible for the Norwegian geography. He won an award for it.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/cult/hitchhikers/g ... fast.shtml

Cheers, Neilster