Allied aircraft production figures

[Jim D Burns]

I took the time to tabulate total allied aircraft production for the entire game. I then separated the US figures from all the rest, so in the first line there are a total of 1656 Allied factories, of which 780 of them produce US planes.

Start date.....Total factories.....US factories.....Upgradeable factories...Months in production

Start............1656...................780................340.............................45
Jan42...........315....................245................150..............................44
Mar42...........50.....................0....................0..................................42
Jun42...........200....................130................100..............................39
Jul42............90.....................90..................0...................................38
Sep42..........30......................0...................0....................................36
Oct42..........100.....................100...............80...................................35
Dec42..........110...................80..................0.....................................33
Jan43..........643....................415................250.................................32
Feb43..........150...................150................0......................................31
Mar43..........20.....................20.................0......................................30
Apr43..........150....................100...............0......................................29
May43.........100....................10.................0......................................28
Jun43..........90......................90.................0......................................27
Jul43...........754....................669................0......................................26
Sep43..........395....................355...............75....................................24
Oct43...........55.....................5...................0......................................23
Nov43...........300...................250...............0......................................22
Dec43...........194...................144...............0......................................21
Jan44............155...................100...............0......................................20
Mar44...........105....................105...............75....................................18
Apr44...........180....................180...............75....................................17
May44...........90.....................0...................0......................................16
Jun44............50.....................0...................0......................................15
Jul44.............50.....................0...................0......................................14
Sep44...........150...................150................75....................................12
Dec44...........40.....................0....................0.....................................9
Jan45...........90.....................40...................0......................................8


Total production is then calculated by multiplying the number of factories times the number of months that factory is in production through Aug45. So for example starting factories are multiplied by 45 months. Edit: I should note upgradeable factories are already included in the first two columns totals so don't count them again. I simply added them as a separate stat line to show how many allied factories eventually turn obsolete.

Total production:

200,069

Total US production:

126,863

Now we know Japans industry can build them about 140,000 total planes through the war given the numbers posted by Admiral Laurent in this thread:

tm.asp?m=1217199&mpage=7&key=

Now with the 'historic conquests', the points available for AC production will be 5200 per day... Production of 3500-4000 AC a month, around 45 000 per year. That is 50% more that what historical Japan did.

So this proves beyond a doubt that Japan is far out producing the allies throughout the entire war given the fact that about 80% of allied factories are fixed and end up producing obsolete aircraft for most of the game. While Japans factories stay upgraded and keep producing top line aircraft for the entire game.

Japan is probably out producing the allies in first line aircraft by 2-1 or better for the whole game given the facts of these numbers.

So let’s take the year 1944 for example. Let’s assume all previous upgradeable factories are upgraded to front line equipment. Let’s assume that all factories producing aircraft from Jul43 are also producing front line aircraft.

So we start 1944 off with 1428 regular factories from Jul-Dec 1943 and an additional 920 upgraded factories from prior to Jul 1943. This gives us a total of 2348 factories plus another 155 that go online in Jan 1944 totaling 2503 factories. Here are the production numbers for front line aircraft in 1944 given these assumptions:

Jan44.....2503 factories times 12 months = 30,036
Mar44.....another 105 factories times 10 months = 1050
Apr44.....another 180 factories times 9 months = 720
May44.....another 90 factories times 8 months = 720
Jun44.....another 50 factories times 7 months = 350
Jul44.....another 50 factories times 6 months = 300
Sep44.....another 150 factories times 4 months = 600
Dec44.....another 10 factories

Total 1944 allied production = 33,786

Of this about 18k or so would be US production. I also seriously doubt all of these factories are producing front line equipment.

And according to Admiral Laurent’s figures quoted above, Japan will produce 45k+ aircraft in the same period. Of which 100% is front line equipment due to 100% upgradeable factories.

Jim

Edit: Additional numbers from further down in the thread added here:

ORIGINAL: treespider
This thread started by showing total US Production in the game as something like c. 120,000 aircraft.

Remember about 80% of those "produced" aircraft are going to be obsolete when they are made. I guess a better example would be to just give a multiple of 6-8 months for fixed non-upgradeable factories. That would be a lot more realistic than multiplying them by the total months in the game I guess.

Jim

Ok I did it, here is the breakdown for the number of fixed factories and upgradable factories:

Start date.....Total factories.....Fixed factories.....Upgradeable factories...Months in production

Start............1656...................1316...................340.............................45
Jan42...........315....................165.....................150..............................44
Mar42...........50.....................50.......................0..................................42
Jun42...........200....................100.....................100..............................39
Jul42............90.....................90.......................0...................................38
Sep42..........30......................30......................0....................................36
Oct42..........100.....................20......................80...................................35
Dec42..........110...................110.....................0.....................................33
Jan43..........643....................393.....................250.................................32
Feb43..........150...................150......................0......................................31
Mar43..........20.....................20.......................0......................................30
Apr43..........150....................150.....................0......................................29
May43.........100....................100.....................0......................................28
Jun43..........90......................90......................0......................................27
Jul43...........754....................754....................0......................................26
Sep43..........395....................320...................75....................................24
Oct43...........55.....................55.....................0......................................23
Nov43...........300...................300...................0......................................22
Dec43...........194...................194...................0......................................21
Jan44............155...................155..................0......................................20
Mar44...........105....................30...................75....................................18
Apr44...........180....................105.................75....................................17
May44...........90.....................90...................0......................................16
Jun44............50.....................50...................0......................................15
Jul44.............50.....................50...................0......................................14
Sep44...........150...................75...................75....................................12
Dec44...........40.....................40...................0.....................................9
Jan45...........90.....................50....................0......................................8

So if we multiply fixed factories by 8 months we get 40,416 air frames. We then get another 41,925 air frames by multiplying non-fixed factories by the total number of months they are in production for a total of 82,341 allied air frames that can be considered competitive air frames at the time of their production.

Don't like the figure of 8 months? Just add or subtract 5,052 air frames by the number of months you want to change that figure by.

Of these about 60% would be US planes for a total US production of about 49,405 competative air frames for the entire game.

Jim

[Andy Mac]

Yup and I could be wrong but for the allies thats stretching it to call that lot front line aircraft i.e. 1500 F6F Nightfighters per year for example or the P51B's that nothing upgrades to as the allies

[Ron Saueracker]

Pretty sad state of affairs. Perhaps simply increasing the cost of production significantly would remedy this gaff.[&:]

[RETIRED]

Perhaps we need to toss the whole miserable crock of a Production system out and just give each side it's actual monthly production of each aircraft (In the Allied case, give them ALL Production, but they can only use 30% of it in the Pacific until the Spring of 1945).  Couldn't possibly be any worse than the mess we have now.

[tabpub]

The original poster should go back and factor in the replacement rates, as by my reading of his post, I don't see that they were accounted for at all in this discussion.

[Jim D Burns]

ORIGINAL: tabpub

The original poster should go back and factor in the replacement rates, as by my reading of his post, I don't see that they were accounted for at all in this discussion.

Everything is added in. I counted replacement rates and production rates too.

Jim

[aztez]

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

Pretty sad state of affairs. Perhaps simply increasing the cost of production significantly would remedy this gaff.[&:]

Indeed it is sad.

[Arkady]

production of some aircraft is not hard set, it increase over time and other aircraft production (and rate) decrease

[Sneer]

for the most of 43 i have production capacity <1500 planes and i always see part of them shut down
there is always possibility to produce more but at the cost of other types of production
probably 44/45 with naval program finished will bring another 1.5k capacity but i don't see 5k stated here - for me it is theory only
as long as there is no way to get better pilots attrition war cann't be won by Japan - i don't mind PZB game here as it is the only case
show me other games where allied production is inadequate / again i don't mind Hellcat issue which should be corrected /
most of 44-45 games are the one where players faced 4:1 at end of 42 so in balance terms game was finished
there are not as many such examples but certainly people tend to watch them carefully
most games which were far from 4:1 in points are not being played so long as Japanese players found often being in too weak position to be comfortable with time needed to push this game further

if you finish all 4:1 games in 1/43 you will never see problems with outproduction
there is no way to adjust certain things in this game as there is no dynamic balance system
most of discussed games are far form historical shape because in some places Japan performed better than IRL and allies always to preassure to move at least at historical timetable which is total thinking error
if there was no major battle lost to Japan and serious losses were inflicted to allies war machine there should be ok with timetable moving 6-12 months ahead.
Players tries not to see this problem and attampt to deliver final strike at least in second half of 44. with 45 used only to clearing the map
this game allows really long play so to some extent it counterbalances some issues

sorry but if sb lost more troops carriers battleships and terrain he can't complain that timetable is affected and any forcing this matter will result in such situation. average quality of allied equipment is better , their pilot pools are nice , pilot replacement too , they can concentrate in certain areas - Japan can't win
it can only loose later .


my 2 cents

[AmiralLaurent]

My own opinion is that the above figures are not too bad for the Allied. First my figures for Japan are optimal.... Japanese players who advanced to 1944 usually have conquests above historical ones (China for example) and their monthly output in 1944 is between 2500 and 3500 form what I have seen.

Everything can reduce the output above... A laden 9000-TK sunk and Japan lost enough oil to build 250 A6M5. A B-17 raid on Hanoi disabling 50 resource centers and Japan lost 50k supplies repaining it and 1200 resources of production worth during the repair = enough to produce 30 AC...

Then the fact that Japan may build 45k AC in 1944 doesn't mean it can do that in 1943 or before....

But anyway I agree that there is something wrong with some models, like the F6F.... IMOO new models should be released one or two months earlier, and with sometimes greater factories but all factories should start damaged...
Current status of F6F: factory size 144.
Released in month X:
Numbers:
X-1 and before: 0
X and after: 144

My proposal, production 200, in two factories.
X-1 and before: 0
X: factories from size 0 to 30. Each producing 15 AC, total 30 (current 144)
X+1: factories from size 30 to 60. Each producing 45 AC, total 90 (combined total: 120) (current 288)
X+2: factories from size 60 to 90. Each producing 75 AC, total 150 (combined total: 270) (current 432)
X+3: factories from size 90 to 100. Each producing 97 AC, total 195 (combined total: 465) (current 576)
X+4: 200 produced (total 665, current 720)
X+5: 200 produced (total 865, current 864)

So less aircraft at the start and more later. To balance this I will cancel automatic conversion for the Japanese... Maybe a modder can know if it doable in a mod or is hard-coded...

Last but not least, we have allready seen one AAR where Japan lost more than 100 000 AC, but I haven't seen one where the Allied lost more than 50 000... Japan may outroduce US but as it will lose 3 AC for each he destroys...

[Jim D Burns]

Oops double post sorry.

Jim

[Jim D Burns]

ORIGINAL: AmiralLaurent
My own opinion is that the above figures are not too bad for the Allied.

I think you are really missing the point about obsolete allied factories if your really believe this. I just asked Andy in his AAR to list/verify what his total first line fighter production is for this US.

Here's a copy of the finally tally (allied production is fixed so no disclosure problem here):

Ok so adding to my original list we end up with:

F4U-1.....150
P-38J.....180
P-47D.....90
F6F.....144
F4U-1D.....100
P-40N.....200
FM-2.....120
P-47C.....105

For a total first line aircraft production of 1139. Japan is still out producing you even when you include weak planes like the FM-2 and P-40N as first line. The US should be out producing Japan by a factor of 3-1 or better at this stage yet your producing about 50% less first line fighters than them. Edit: (I based this on an assumed production of 4000 aircraft with approx. half being fighters)

Jim

Now remember it is July 1944 and he is including FM-2's and P-40N's as first line aircraft. Not because they are, but because he doesn't have enough air frames to upgrade the groups that use those aircraft. He didn't downgrade to them, he never had the aircraft to upgrade them in the first place. Personally I wouldn't count them as first line so the US production of competative first line fighters would be 819 a month.

So if Japan is only producing 1500 - 2000 fighters, they are still far out producing the US.

Obsolete factories for the allies is the killer. The total numbers look large, but actual first line equipment is always very low since only a small percentage of their total factories are allowed to upgrade.

The problem isn't just Hellcats, it’s the poor production model used for the allies.

Jim

P.S. and don't forget Andy is losing about 200-300 fighters in every big battle right now (enough production for 3-4 fights a month and then he's out of planes), so attrition heavily favors Japan.

[pauk]

not true. I don't have idea why people found one isolate example and start crying about poor modeling of the Allies etc, Jim. Before you jump on me i will say that some things aren't best modeled so we can agree here.

But what i will never understand why crying always coming from the Allied side? I will take PzB & Andy game as example;

- Brits are out of the game
- Allied fleet was decimated before Andy jumps in the game

And, despite that, Allies can continue their push, advancing faster than historical. Someone may say that Andy is very good player, which is more than true, but PzB is also outstanding player....

So, while Allies have experienced many problems they are still advancing more faster than historica. I did never read from the PzB or any other JFB complaining about that....

not trying to change course of the disscussion, but i said it gazzilion times : "fixing just one thing will totaly unbalance the whole game and screw it". But it seems that no one listening that because they arent "historical fanboys" as they like to say....

[Sneer]

so there are two of us Pauk
Jim play Japan in 43/44 before giving ideas to rebalancing

[Jim D Burns]

ORIGINAL: pauk
not true.

What's not true? I've been very careful to make sure I've gotten the allied numbers correct so I'm a bit miffed you're saying I've lied or mislead people somehow.

I've seen lots of rationalizations from the Japanese but the only person who has actually posted their aircraft production totals was for a game that was a complete blowout for Japan and is lost by the end of 42. Not an average example by any means. How about posting your production totals Pauk. How many first line fighters are you pumping out?

But my original point wasn't to slam Japan, it is simply to highlight how inadequate allied aircraft production is across the board. Especially given the horrendously bloody nature of the game engine. Yes F6F's are a problem, but so are just about every other allied plane.

Jim

[Jim D Burns]

ORIGINAL: Sneer
before giving ideas to rebalancing

REBALANCING? I've pretty much proved that the US is out produced by Japan and you claim it's a game balance issue?

I guess this just shows we are two different kinds of players. I prefer to game history as it was. You want a balanced (equal sides) game that simply uses history as a coversheet.

Japan NEVER even came close to US production numbers let alone out produced them.

Jim

P.S. I plan to play Japan in my next PBEM, but since I have over a year and a half invested in my current game I'm a tad disinclined to start another one simply due to the time commitment.

[Andy Mac]

My game with PZB is efinitly an outlier (re FM2 it is a front line aircraft Jim not because of PDU but because very few CVE's could handle F6F's its something thats going to require thought even in PDU games - how can allies use F6F's on CVE's that werent capable of handling them and then turn round and insist that Jacks and Georges stay off of Jap Cariers I am not intnending on using F6F's on CVE's even in PDU game and will only deploy F4U1D's after kamis are active, P40N is frontline because a range 8 FB is incredibly valuable although not top specs as fighters both of these aircraft even in PDU games have a valuable niche role).
&nbsp;
Re Timetable as I have said before and will probably say again. I was ahead of schedule in the Pacific because
1. PZB Failed to secure Tarawa/PM and Lunga
2. India does not affect this timetable as PZB is garrsioning India with the troops he would have had available.
India is a huge white elephant for the Japanese if they dont secure the three critical bases to an allied LBA supported South Pacific Strategy.
&nbsp;
At one point through the work of Nomad especially I was 4 - 6 months ahead of historical now a few things delayed me but I doubt anyone could say I have been going slow since [:D][:D]
&nbsp;
Lastly I DONT CARE what Japanese production is the bigger it is the more planes I shoot down the more VP's I get and the more VP's I get whn I cremate the overbuilt factories.
&nbsp;
My one and only complaint (I think justifiably) is that F6F DAY fighter is undercooked by at least 50% and should be on the order of 300 per month but I am boring even myself on this point now - I think everyone is aware of my thoughts on this by now [:D][:D][:D]
&nbsp;
Andy

[Andy Mac]

Awe shucks

PZB is an excellent player but India is irrelevant to SOPAC campaign not securing Tarawa/Lunga and PM was fatal .... as you will soon discover <evil laugh>

My early speed of advance was a direct result of Wobb holding onto the key bases and diverting attention onto Java, ADavidB's stockpiling, convoying and base building and Nomads Barge led Solomons campaign I view it as a team effdort that I am the one letting the side down on as I wasnt able to keep it going !!!

ORIGINAL: pauk

not true. I don't have idea why people found one isolate example and start crying about poor modeling of the Allies etc, Jim. Before you jump on me i will say that some things aren't best modeled so we can agree here.

But what i will never understand why crying always coming from the Allied side? I will take PzB & Andy game as example;

- Brits are out of the game
- Allied fleet was decimated before Andy jumps in the game

And, despite that, Allies can continue their push, advancing faster than historical. Someone may say that Andy is very good player, which is more than true, but PzB is also outstanding player....

So, while Allies have experienced many problems they are still advancing more faster than historica. I did never read from the PzB or any other JFB complaining about that....

not trying to change course of the disscussion, but i said it gazzilion times : "fixing just one thing will totaly unbalance the whole game and screw it". But it seems that no one listening that because they arent "historical fanboys" as they like to say....

[Sneer]

of course japan can't outproduce - we talk about pacific
what with equipment sent to european theater , leand lease ?
considering non PDU enviroment i wouldn't say oscar 2 is frontline equipment in 44 and zero family is also slighlty below the standard of what allies throw on front
basicly franks/georges only keep standard in 44 - how many of them is produced
what with ubercap that can eat enormous amount of japanese planes in 44 no matter experiance
what with naval LBA strikes that never! in this game are coordinated
there are at least few black holes for japanese production no matter how high it is
fix it&nbsp; - than increase allied production&nbsp;
this is what i think about rebalancing
this game has many things that are wrong but somehow there is certain balance - fix on thing leaving rest and you ruin it even more

[pauk]

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns
I've seen lots of rationalizations from the Japanese but the only person who has actually posted their aircraft production totals was for a game that was a complete blowout for Japan and is lost by the end of 42. Not an average example by any means. How about posting your production totals Pauk. How many first line fighters are you pumping out?

But my original point wasn't to slam Japan, it is simply to highlight how inadequate allied aircraft production is across the board. Especially given the horrendously bloody nature of the game engine. Yes F6F's are a problem, but so are just about every other allied plane.

Apologise. I didn't mean to say that you've lied. Poor choices of the words. I meant to say that this isn't a biggest problem of the game.

Jim, i'm start to think that we are never going to understand each other - you just don't want to see that this isn't biggest problem since we are talking about one game! And you refusing to admit that despite "game breaker", poor Andy without Fighters I (just joking) continues to advance with his juggernaut!

If you are real history fanboy you should analyse not just one aspect of the game, but the whole game and say it:

- it is not right that Japan can outproduce US
- it is not right that that Corsair is so much overrated
... etc etc... but you are stick with only one issue, refusing to see the whole picture! So despite you like to say for yourself that you are historical fanboy, i see tendency to be AFB.

As for my game, you are joking that i would post it here, where Andy can see that. It can be seen in my AAR - all i can tell you tell here is that i have capacity of near 1.400 planes (but not producing all of them). What's wrong with that? Andy allowed me to do that.... he should concentrate on other aspects than using his subs for evacuation of the troops... i've outplayed him in the opening and capture SRA in good shape... so since he allowed me to maximise my industrial output i say why not?


One more thing - we are playing with PDU on so i don't think that in our game we can use historical arguments. Andy asked me about upgrading land based ac groups to Corsairs and i said to him that he is free to upgrade as much groups to Corsairs as he wish since i did it similar with my groups. It isn't his/allied fault that they had better fighters (although we can discuss about uber corsair).

are you telling me that i should stick with historical production and wait for two or three strikes which will destroy my industry and use stored repairs with no purpose because he will back with 4E and do the same in just one or two attacks... sorry but i'm not that stupid.

Many games have been abandoned (Jap surrended) because they capture SRA devastated, it seems you don't count on that.....

I know that your point wasnt slam dunk with Japan and that's matter. Do you really understand what you are asking for?

Japan is unable to stop/delay Allies and endure till August 1945 even they captured India. So, because i'm historical fanboy give Allies historical produciton rate or limit japan war industry so we can have can finish with Japan earlier than historical... kind of inconsistent?



You've extracted one "Issue" and proved that is not right but didn't look systematic and checked is this really screwed up the game or Andy is, despite than is able to continue with his advance?

And still don't understand what do you want to prove with such extreme game as PzB/Andy. What, is this game some kind of Bible?

Numbers aren't right i can agree. But i would also point that i'm against "drunken richman" apporach.

Look, i have enormous pool of pilots and quite a lot of bombers.. i have plenty of divsions - lets use them in "no-way-to-stop-until-Tokyo-is reached". And after a hangover, you finally realise that pool isn't endless....

I'm giving a credit to take this game against PzB and he done tremendous job (still doing!) but in such extreme game he has to experience some problems!

I'm done with this "issue" and eagerly wait another rant against Japan. We all know the fact that there a so many games which reached 1945...

The only good thing about this thread is that Andy is crowned as Andy without Fighters I (king of Scotland)

[;)][:)]