Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion

[trees trees]

wow Thanks Patrice! We are playing a game currently that Norway got pulled into and we wasted at least a half hour trying to figure out what the rule on Narvik was. Since Narvik is not in the index, we had no luck deciphering where the rule had gone to in the rule book. We thought it must have been dropped from the rules (we are using 7m). Iced-in ports, the not obvious place to figure out resource transport rules... Then I missed post #174, this thread has been rolling along pretty fast some days!

Perhaps I'll see 25% of my heritage on the WiF map much more often once again. One sentence of WiF rule and the grand strategies change. One of my favorite O-chit plays once was to use a Super-Combined as the Germans to take every Norwegian port simultaneously, Japanese style. (Before we were using the Ski Divisions). The Allies were so surprised...

[Froonp]

wow Thanks Patrice! We are playing a game currently that Norway got pulled into and we wasted at least a half hour trying to figure out what the rule on Narvik was. Since Narvik is not in the index, we had no luck deciphering where the rule had gone to in the rule book. We thought it must have been dropped from the rules (we are using 7m). Iced-in ports, the not obvious place to figure out resource transport rules... Then I missed post #174, this thread has been rolling along pretty fast some days!

That's what electronic format rules are all about. CTRL+F, type Narvik, and you're done in 10 seconds [:D].
An alternate solution is to ask me [8D].

[are]

I think you should add Bodø and the railroad going to it. During WW2 the germans used prisoners of war from Yugoslavia to construct a railroad from Bodø to Narvik. It was never finished.

[Peter Stauffenberg]

ORIGINAL: are

I think you should add Bodø and the railroad going to it. During WW2 the germans used prisoners of war from Yugoslavia to construct a railroad from Bodø to Narvik. It was never finished.

When the war started the railroad northwards from Trondheim ended in Grong (not very close to Bodø). Grong is a small town maybe 1/3 of the way between Trondheim and Bodø. So the current MWIF map is correct stopping the rail line where it stops.

During the war the Germans used prisoners of war to extend the rail line from Grong to Bodø. This rail line was finished as late as 1962. A long time later than when the war ended so the rail line part from Grong to Bodø does not belong on the MWIF map. The Germans extended the rail line northwards and reached Mo i Rana in 1942. After 1942 they went further north and there are many stories about the sufferings of the prisoners of war in Saltfjellet between Mo i Rana and Fauske (just east of Bodø). After the war the Norwegian railway company (NSB) was so depleted of resources (old or destroyed trains) and Norway as a country had a lot of rebuilding to do. Only in 1952 did the Government agree to make major investments in the rail net and complete the rail line all the way to Bodø. In 1962 the rail line all the way to Bodø was officially opened.

In the 1980's and 1990's the was considerate political pressure from the politicians in the north to extend the rail line from Fauske via Narvik all the way to Tromsø. But these plans were later abandoned and efforts were put to upgrade the road standard in northern Norway instead.

Another interesting matter to read is that the Germans linked the rail line near Stavanger to the rail line from Oslo to Kristiansand. In 1944 it was possible to travel all the way from Oslo to Stavanger by train. Before this time there was a gap south east of Stavanger without rail connection (I think the hex where Ullern wanted to change the terrain from clear to mountain).

The Germans had plans to extend the rail line all the way to Kirkenes, but they were defeated before they came that far. They used a lot of prisoners of war to build infrastructure in Norway.

So I think it's wrong to add the rail line all the way to Bodø since it was only opened as late as 1962. The map is supposed to show the situation in 1939 (start of the war) and then the end station of Grong is correct (the current one). But if you want to place rail lines in all the terrain that was built during the war it's possible to extend it as far north as Mo i Rana. Mo i Rana is just south of Svartisen glacier. It could be correct to do so because it's done for the rail line between Oslo and Stavanger and also Archangel to Murmansk. This rail line was also built during the war because the Russians feared the rail line between Leningrad and Murmansk could be cut.

[Froonp]

MWiF would need a rail construction rule.
WiF FE never had (though there are numerous house rules about rail constructing), because of counter constraints, but MWiF is only limited by our imagination.

What about starting a thread about what could be (realisticaly) added to MWiF (even if only version 2.0) ?

I see many :
- Rail building and destroying
- Localized production, especially of ships, with the possibility of dealing damage to ships in building.
- Localized repairs on ships, with the possibility of dealing damage to ships in repair.
- Sub Pens.
- Carrier Pilots.
- Area linked Partisans.
- Line of Communication's Vichy (LoC Vichy)

[c92nichj]

I know steves answer allready and I fully support it.

First implement MWIF, keep focussed on the task.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: are
I think you should add Bodø and the railroad going to it. During WW2 the germans used prisoners of war from Yugoslavia to construct a railroad from Bodø to Narvik. It was never finished.

Are, welcome.

The final product of MWIF gets stronger the more people we have examining this work in progress and making suggestions. Most ideas do not pan out and even those that do are often combined with other ideas so much that the original one can be hard to recognize. As an outstanding example of this, take Nils original revision of the Scandinavian portion of the map. Occasionally someone suggests something that is immediately useful just as it is. On those occasions the usual response is "Why didn't I think of that?" or "I thought that was already included?".

So, please keep thinking, questioning, and suggesting. And as Patrice and c92nichj said, many improvements to WIF would be nice - with the more complex ones destined to having to wait for later MWIF release/products.

[gbirkeli]

I think it is sufficient to map the glaciers in Norway as alpine hexsides, rather than inventing a new hex type. They are not as large as a full hex, and it is possible for people to cross them if they are lightly equipped and properly trained. As for Svartisen, ordinary units should be allowed to pass from north to south on both the east and the west side of the glacier.

Bodø should not have a port. Even today it doesn't really have a port, but more a large harbor. I believe Mo i Rana (for iron ore) and perhaps even Fauske (for copper ore) had larger port/harbor facilities back then.

Gaute

[Hortlund]

Excellent map. I have just one suggestion. The river on the NW hexside of Stockholm (Dalälven) should extend 4-5 hexsides west/northwest.
 

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund
Excellent map. I have just one suggestion. The river on the NW hexside of Stockholm (Dalälven) should extend 4-5 hexsides west/northwest.

This is something to consider. Perhaps Toed could give us his opinion, since in post #176 of this thread he drew in the river from Lake Siljan - which seems to be the one you are talking about.

The question is not whether there is a river there or not, but rather if the river poses a difficult enough obstacle for troop movement - comparable to the othe rivers on the European map (for instance).

[Shannon V. OKeets]

Here is a screen shot of the newly constructed forts (1/2 not 1/3 combat effect) for Lulea/Boden. The coastal bitmaps still have to be done, but all the terrain changes from the Scandinavian discussion are in place. I am using the Commonwealth color for the forts, even though they are Swedish (the colors are a close match. You can tell that they only have a 1/2 combat effect because the stars are white instead of black.

[c92nichj]

Dalälven is one of Swedens largest rivers. This picture is taken in the middle between Siljan and the baltic. The river actually starts in Norway close to femunden but it is obviously not as wide up north.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: c92nichj

Dalälven is one of Swedens largest rivers. This picture is taken in the middle between Siljan and the baltic. The river actually starts in Norway close to femunden but it is obviously not as wide up north.

Sounds like it should be on the map then. Which hexsides would be best for it to run along?

[Peter Stauffenberg]

ORIGINAL: trees trees
just curious why Bergen is now five hexes away from Oslo, rather than the four on WiF:FE paper maps?

It's because Bergen was placed in the wrong hex on the WIFFE map. We decided to correct map errors in the
border areas on the WIFFE map (like Iran, Norway, Sweden, Finland etc.) because these corrections have few
implications on game play and makes it easier to link the European scaled WIFFE map to the MWIF map European
scaled maps that were earlier Asian scaled.

[Hortlund]

My suggestion for where the Dalälven should be on the map.

Any comments?

[Toed]

ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund

My suggestion for where the Dalälven should be on the map.

Any comments?

Just one. Dalälven splits roughly halfway (below the D in SWEDEN on the map) between the coast and the Norwegian border into Västerdalälven which has a path similar to your suggestion, and Österdalälven which has a more northerly path. I would suggest that the river is drawn on the north (E, NE, NW) side of the hex containing the letters SWE instead of its south (SE, SW, W) side. This will also better represent the Siljan lake that should have been on the NE hexside of the "SWE" hex if on the map if it was slightly larger. Or both paths can be represented, but I personally feel that one of the two paths is enough to represent their effect in MWiF.

[Peter Stauffenberg]

I'm looking at the map and wonder if maybe the border line between Sweden and Norway should be altered a little.

I think especially about the following hexes should maybe become Swedish instead:
* Forest hex 2xNE of Oslo
* Forest hex 3xNE of Oslo

This takes care of the impression of lake Mjøsa being too far away from the Swedish border. Now it will be just
one hex away from the border. It also takes care of making the most narrow part of Sweden a little wider
(4 hexes instead of just 3). It's strange that the hex line just south of lake Femunden has 6 hexes inside Norway
and only 3 hexes inside Sweden. This change will make it better (5 Norwegian and 4 Swedish). I guess these two
hex changes will have very little impact on game play because it's not along ay rail lines.

The clear hex 1xSE of Oslo and the clear hex 1xE of Oslo are both 50% Swedish, but I think they can stay this way
because they are part of the WIFFE European map.

The forest hex just east of Lake Femunden is also 50% Swedish, but I think it's better to keep it as is so the lake
is not hidden along the border line.

What do you think about my proposed minor change to the border line?

[Toed]

ORIGINAL: Borger Borgersen

I'm looking at the map and wonder if maybe the border line between Sweden and Norway should be altered a little.

I think especially about the following hexes should maybe become Swedish instead:
* Forest hex 2xNE of Oslo
* Forest hex 3xNE of Oslo

This takes care of the impression of lake Mjøsa being too far away from the Swedish border. Now it will be just
one hex away from the border. It also takes care of making the most narrow part of Sweden a little wider
(4 hexes instead of just 3). It's strange that the hex line just south of lake Femunden has 6 hexes inside Norway
and only 3 hexes inside Sweden. This change will make it better (5 Norwegian and 4 Swedish). I guess these two
hex changes will have very little impact on game play because it's not along ay rail lines.

The clear hex 1xSE of Oslo and the clear hex 1xE of Oslo are both 50% Swedish, but I think they can stay this way
because they are part of the WIFFE European map.

The forest hex just east of Lake Femunden is also 50% Swedish, but I think it's better to keep it as is so the lake
is not hidden along the border line.

What do you think about my proposed minor change to the border line?

You are correct. The border are a bit to easterly. I mentioned this in post 209 in this thread and as I wrote then it is very hard get the border in the right place. Since the border seems to enjoy existing in the middle of the hexes. [:)]

If we are moving the border I suggest that it is just moved in the forest hex 3xNE of Oslo. Because the border is, with the exeption of a ~60 km * 30 km Norwegian "bite" at Trysil (a bit small to be represented as a whole hex imo), almost a straight line from east of Oslo up to east Trondheim and this one change would make it as straight as a north to south line can get in a hexgrid.

[c92nichj]

I found the following map on the net, not sure who made it, but I think it is pretty good. It have added swamp in the northern sweden just as northern Finalnd which I guess is pretty accurate way of describing the climate up there.

[Hortlund]

ORIGINAL: Borger Borgersen

I think especially about the following hexes should maybe become Swedish instead:
* Forest hex 2xNE of Oslo
* Forest hex 3xNE of Oslo

...

What do you think about my proposed minor change to the border line?

I agree.