Odd Assumptions

[Sardonic]

ORIGINAL: Murat

ORIGINAL: Sardonic

City Garrison can surrender w Honors Of War
You will get them back.

At attacker's option, not yours. In the case of your Spain, I would kill them.

I believe that there is an option to surrender before the die roll. Possibly w/o the honors.
In any case, you wont get any PP for killing naked troops.
THAT is the whole point.

[Murat]

Well yes, you can surrender (only certain factors) but then those units are out of the war until you make peace and the more you surrender, the less likely you are getting conditional.

[hlj]

ORIGINAL: Sardonic
When I play, and I usually play Spain, I never surrender. I always give my fleets to the Brits.
In fact in some games, I DOW on the English JUST to surrender to them, and give them my fleets.
This requires a accomodating English player.

This is an example of you breaking the rules

ORIGINAL: Sardonic
However, allowing th English to use your fleets, is surely better that having him SINK, those fleets.

Speaking soley as Spain of course.

You can only allow england to use your fleets if you combine move with him and YOU move your fleets as england wishes

ORIGINAL: Sardonic
To surrender to France, negates your greatest advantage. Terrain. He doesnt want to stay around inside
Spain. Sure he can occupy Madrid, and so what? Were you actually getting that much cash anyways?

Make him hunt down and capture each capital, and force a surrender. In money alone it will cost him.
If the English help, it may not be that easy for him to take them all.

By caving in to France, yes you preserve the possibility of 'eventual' victory. But you also, allow the French player
the luxury of not actually fighting.

This strategy depends on you playing with certain optional rules. and a less honest player in charge of another major power, might just declare war on you and laugh when you are forced to surrender to him also without him having to deploy any troops.

ORIGINAL: Sardonic
He gains no points, unless he defeats corp. Is there some reason you absolutely MUST field one?
Read the rules about what generate Political Points.
Storming a Fortress is one way.

No, there is no reason to have a field battle with him, nor is there any reason to fight with your fortress'es. Other than making sure that france is not forced to take his winnings in the peace terms because you made him go into a verry unprofitable war.(I know you dont force france to attack you when you are spain, but the french need for VP usualy forces him to attack, and in my experience he WILL take it personal if you make him fight an 11 month war without any VP gained for him exept the ones for the unconditional surrender and those from a possible royal marriage) If I played france and spain pulled a no fight war on me, I would choose to take his army first time round or his garrisions whereever I could get the most factors, then I would choose 3 provinces to make my seccond grab at spain a little easier, and then I would take his economy to make rebuilding hard for him. in all of the following surrenders he didnt fight me I would probably take Royal marriage money and fleets, army or garrisions. Or more provinces if the rules allowed it.

ORIGINAL: Sardonic
To meet Napoleon in the field, is to give him the advantage. Why do that?

To make him settle for a conditional surrender

ORIGINAL: Sardonic
You can always pile up troops in cities and get them back after the surrender.

Not if they starve in the siege, nor if France select to remove your garrisions as a peace term(he cant take them all, but a spain not fighting doesnt have much manpower)

[Sardonic]

No, there is no reason to have a field battle with him, nor is there any reason to fight with your fortress'es. Other than making sure that france is not forced to take his winnings in the peace terms because you made him go into a verry unprofitable war.(I know you dont force france to attack you when you are spain, but the french need for VP usualy forces him to attack, and in my experience he WILL take it personal if you make him fight an 11 month war without any VP gained for him exept the ones for the unconditional surrender and those from a possible royal marriage) If I played france and spain pulled a no fight war on me, I would choose to take his army first time round or his garrisions whereever I could get the most factors, then I would choose 3 provinces to make my seccond grab at spain a little easier, and then I would take his economy to make rebuilding hard for him. in all of the following surrenders he didnt fight me I would probably take Royal marriage money and fleets, army or garrisions. Or more provinces if the rules allowed it.
****************************************************************************************************

This is to be expected, and so what? The point is to make sure France doesnt get PP. That is the sole point.
If he doesnt get them from you, if he intends to win, he will need to go get them somewhere.

You see in MY view, France can always leave you alone. That is an option.

[Roads]

I don't think France can AFFORD to take it personally. Of course if you force him to take the whole country he will demand unconditional, and will choose the most onerous (for Spain) conditions. But if you've shown that you're willing to engage in a 11 month war just to cost him PPs he's going to have to think twice before attacking again. He can't afford to commit a large chunk of his army to get 4 PP in a year. If he wants to take it personally and come back for another dosage of a long profitless war let him. Two such wars will make it very difficult for France to win the game without preventing Spain from winning.

[vallu751]

With the risk of annoying many people, I have to say I agree with Sardonic and Roads.
 
I've played a few full campaigns of EIA, even though they take a week if played continuously, or more than a year with weekly turns. In my opinion, those games have suffered from people who make instant surrenders to aggressors who seem more powerful than they are. Those instant surrenders change the nature of the game to a bluffing game with very little real action at all. Perhaps some people prefer it that way, but I'd generally welcome the sight of an Austerlitz or a prolonged Spanish campaign, or whatever might happen. Instead of a country just surrendering the instant another country declares war on it. Can you imagine a historical Russia surrendering in 1812 without a single Frenchman crossing their border?
 
If you don't do an instant surrender, the best bet for Spain against France is to hide your factors in cities or places France can't access. Then you watch their coffers run dry and their army elsewhere be smaller while they run their corps around your pretty country. France occupies Madrid, so what? They did so in real life too. That's no reason to stop using guerilla tactics. Teach those frog-eaters a lesson and make sure they know the cost/benefit of attacking your country is not good.
 
The game is won on political points and the easiest way to get them is victory in war and field combat. You deny these from an enemy by not surrendering and not fielding corps.
 
I'm actually pretty disappointed with the game nowadays because fighting bravely for your country is not considered politically correct. I think there should be some sort of 'discount' for making a brave defensive stance. How come it is less prestigious for the mighty Austria-Hungary to fight Napoleon to the last man than it is to kneel on his whim?

[Murat]

Again, you are counting on only being able to lose 3 provinces. Without that optional rule, Spain forcing civil disorder ends the game for Spain.

[Joisey]

I've never played the game without the "3 provinces only" option. Otherwise, I would think that Prussia and Austria would never recover from a defeat and end up carved up between France and Russia. And without the ressurected armies of Austria and Prussia later in the game, I don't think the coalition would ever be strong enough to seriously threaten France. That would make your games pretty predictable. Not to mention that those players in your group would have to sit out for the last half of the game. Not much fun.

[Sardonic]

ORIGINAL: Murat

Again, you are counting on only being able to lose 3 provinces. Without that optional rule, Spain forcing civil disorder ends the game for Spain.

Not only do I count on it, I use that knowledge.

Start w a DOW against England, on turn #2 Surrender Unconditionally to England.
England MUST accept that surrender, he gets no choice.

You allow HIM to pick the three provinces to lose. Presumably, with some negotiations.

Now you are immune to France AND for the entire game.

[Joisey]

And then what? France doesn't need you for political points, the British have bigger fish to fry, and your economy is now seriously damaged with the loss of three provinces (Spain doesn't have many to start with), about 1/4 of your total. Assuming an average pick by the British player (i.e. not a sweetheart deal) you can expect to lose Galicia, Leon, and Old Castile. That brings your 32/16 economy down to 23/11 (Hey, almost exactly as poor as pathetic Turkey!), a reduction of about one third.

You are now perfectly postioned to defend against an attack by France that will never come (you've succeeded too well in making yourself not worth the effort) and in the meantime, are incapable of going on the offense against anyone. You certainly can't afford to replace cavalry losses. A couple of bad chit picks, and you could lose a war to Portugal!! [:D]

[Sardonic]

ORIGINAL: Joisey

And then what? France doesn't need you for political points, the British have bigger fish to fry, and your economy is now seriously damaged with the loss of three provinces (Spain doesn't have many to start with), about 1/4 of your total. Assuming an average pick by the British player (i.e. not a sweetheart deal) you can expect to lose Galicia, Leon, and Old Castile. That brings your 32/16 economy down to 23/11 (Hey, almost exactly as poor as pathetic Turkey!), a reduction of about one third.

You are now perfectly postioned to defend against an attack by France that will never come (you've succeeded too well in making yourself not worth the effort) and in the meantime, are incapable of going on the offense against anyone. You certainly can't afford to replace cavalry losses. A couple of bad chit picks, and you could lose a war to Portugal!! [:D]

Then I guess it wont come. And If England did that, well it would be rather foolish of him.
Assisting you in preparing to defend against France is in his interests.
If he doesnt see it that way, that is sad. Remember who he is, and when the next game comes, dont make the same mistakes.

The entire point is to make France leave you alone. If he does, then you get what you wanted.

[Joisey]

I think that getting France to leave you alone is only Step One.  Step Two is to have a plan for earning enough political points to have a chance to win.
 
Granted, I think you are on the right track.  How about this approach (assuming a hostile France):
 
Get your cavalry out of the Iberian pennisula and beyond the reach of France.  Morrocco, Majorca, London, somewhere.  Convert infantry factors out of corps and into garrisons.  Deny the French a single field combat and give him only trivial combats.  Make him have to besiege every provinical capital, and harass him with guerillas.  If he rolls badly you may be lucky enough to see him have to leave and deal with another major power threat before he finishes the job.  If not, you've lost three provinces that you can retake in three years when Nappy is off fighting someone else.  The more tedious and frustrating you made his first war against you, the less enthusiastic he'll be to have to do it again.
 
I would personally prefer the high stakes gamble of allying with France and betting the entire game on a single naval battle.  You'll probably lose more than half the time, but when you win you have a good shot at achieving dominant status and winning big.

[Roads]

Sardonic, you've now lost me.  How on earth can it be rational for Spain to give away 3 provinces to GB.  This automatically puts the Spanish fleet (Spain's most important asset, and one Britain would love to eliminate) at risk.  You give up a big chunk of your income and manpower.  And what have you gained?  Immunity from French attack?  That's not worth much if Britain and Turkey are now free to use you to gain political points.  Spain is weak enough as is thank you very much. 

[Sardonic]

ORIGINAL: Joisey

I think that getting France to leave you alone is only Step One.  Step Two is to have a plan for earning enough political points to have a chance to win.

Granted, I think you are on the right track.  How about this approach (assuming a hostile France):

Get your cavalry out of the Iberian pennisula and beyond the reach of France.  Morrocco, Majorca, London, somewhere.  Convert infantry factors out of corps and into garrisons.  Deny the French a single field combat and give him only trivial combats.  Make him have to besiege every provinical capital, and harass him with guerillas.  If he rolls badly you may be lucky enough to see him have to leave and deal with another major power threat before he finishes the job.  If not, you've lost three provinces that you can retake in three years when Nappy is off fighting someone else.  The more tedious and frustrating you made his first war against you, the less enthusiastic he'll be to have to do it again.

I would personally prefer the high stakes gamble of allying with France and betting the entire game on a single naval battle.  You'll probably lose more than half the time, but when you win you have a good shot at achieving dominant status and winning big.

That is of course part of what I was getting at.
I play, to WIN. To prove to the other players that you DONT need to bid high, to win the game.
I have known players that would delibretly bid outrageously high, just to make sure they got France or England.
But they had no chance of winning the game.

[Sardonic]

ORIGINAL: Roads

Sardonic, you've now lost me.  How on earth can it be rational for Spain to give away 3 provinces to GB.  This automatically puts the Spanish fleet (Spain's most important asset, and one Britain would love to eliminate) at risk.  You give up a big chunk of your income and manpower.  And what have you gained?  Immunity from French attack?  That's not worth much if Britain and Turkey are now free to use you to gain political points.  Spain is weak enough as is thank you very much. 

First it requires that you trust England. Let us assume you do, and he sticks you.
There is that guy to the North that 'might' help you out, if you sell him your soul.

Other powers can always intervene if you invite them.

[Joisey]

I'm sure someone else has posted this in another thread, but a third option, in addition to what I've already discussed for making yourself a porcupine for the French snake to swallow, is to ally with Russia.  Be the Ramora to their shark and use them to garner political points.
 
You can get respect from England by being potentially too costly for them to take your fleet out if they have to fight the Russians too.  You and the Russians have a common enemy, Turkey, on which to beat on in regular intervals, and Russia will welcome your sending them corps to repel the Grand Armee or, alternatively, being a gadfly in the French rear, attacking French free states in Italy and generally siphoning off French strength against the Russian invasion.  All these things can garner you enough political points to win if you bid conservatively.

[Murat]

ORIGINAL: Sardonic

Start w a DOW against England, on turn #2 Surrender Unconditionally to England.
England MUST accept that surrender, he gets no choice.

You allow HIM to pick the three provinces to lose. Presumably, with some negotiations.

Now you are immune to France AND for the entire game.

Wow this gets even better. So you are going to a pre-existing state of war with Britain, which you declare before France declares their pre-existings, and then pray France does not jump in (wars start at the same time - unmodified die roll determines if France or Britain gets to go 1st on picks). Then on turn 2, you sue for peace hoping no French corps have crossed your border while Britain has landed 3 corps on your provinces? This is an even easier path to Spanish destruction and impotence for the remainder of the game. This game has got to come out soon, lots of great stories will come from these kinds of things.

[Roads]

ORIGINAL: Murat

Again, you are counting on only being able to lose 3 provinces. Without that optional rule, Spain forcing civil disorder ends the game for Spain.

And this isn't entirely true either. France can never force Spain into civil disoder. All he can do is force an unconditional surrender. He will then undoubtedly take three provinces (he's annoyed at having pissed away a year or so in taking out Spain and getting no PPs for it, and wants to ensure that if there is a next time he'll have a head start on taking out Spain.

But the question here is when the next Fr-Sp war happens. Does France want to go through all this trouble again? With a well timed DOW Spain should be able to rapidly regain a couple of those provinces and their guerillas. If not she can immediately sue for peace.

In a game without the three province limit this approach (fighting France with guerillas and garrisons, denying him PPs) is much more dangerous for Spain. But even then a bunch of things have to go wrong for it to really fail. Or I suppose France may decide that he prefers teaching Spain a lesson to winning the game. If he doesn't care about winning he can absolutely wipe Spain out if the 3 province limit isn't in use.

[Joisey]

Even in a game without the three provinces only rule, wouldn't the victorious power (let's say France) want to keep its victim with it's capital province intact? 
 
The reason I say this is because with the one capital province left, this becomes a "Minor Province" with 8-9 corps!  Treat it just as you would a conquered free state, except this free state is nominally "Player Controlled" by another player.  You've convinced him to become your ally & vassal by not removing him from the game, and are even giving him the chance to eke out a win in political points by marching with your own vast victorious hordes.
 
Do this to Austria & Prussia, and you are an irresistable force!
 
Call it the Darth Vader approach, turning former enemies into your pawns.

[Murat]

ORIGINAL: Roads

And this isn't entirely true either. France can never force Spain into civil disoder.

[ 8.7 ] THE CIVIL DISORDER STEP: If, during any Economic Phase, a major power can collect no home nation manpower, that major power goes into "civil disorder" and that major power is permanently out of the game and all of its home nation forces are permanently eliminated from the map.
8.7.1: All conquered minor countries of the major power undergoing civil disorder pass to the control of the major power occupying the major power's capital.
8.7.2: Controlled minor free states of the major power undergoing civil disorder become neutral if no enemy forces control their capital. If a capital is controlled, their control passes to the major power occupying their capital.
8.7.3: Each of that major power's home nation provinces are ceded to the major power controlling the provincial capital. EXCEPTION: Where no major power controls the provincial capital, that province passes to the major power controlling the national capital. These provinces are now all considered to be ceded provinces.
8.7.4: If the forces of two or more major powers are placed to dispute claims to territory arising from civil disorder (ie., mixed forces occupy a capital city), the involved major powers may decide on control in any mutually agreeable manner, or, if unable to agree, may use competitive die rolls to determine the new controlling major power (the modifiers from 4.6.2 apply to these die rolls for disputed minor countries).
8.7.5: Each major power at war with the major power undergoing civil disorder gains 5 political points, the same as if the major power in civil disorder had surrendered unconditionally.