RHS Maneuverability Review: Data [ALL Data Done]

[el cid again]

There is some light at the end of the tunnel Nic:

My assignment was "get the data right and (we) will get the code right."
The data was so badly "nerfed" that it would poison the best code - and prevent a good routine from being validated or calibrated. It really must go in this order. There are a number of fundamental code reforms in progress at this moment. The easiest of these should be dealing with the ammunition issue: since the routine was written with ammo limits, it is not hard to but it back in. The more difficult - one that officially requires "a complete rewrite of the routine" - is the numbers problem. Right now code is only written to address 50 planes on a side (a reason that RHS refuses to give any single unit more than 48 planes - although there is another reason as well - and this will not change much after the routine is fixed). Over 50 planes there is a sort of "repeat loop" process - and that process has serious defects.

That said, I know a professional game developer who thinks the UV/WITP air combat model is "the best ever done" for formation plane combat. IF the data is better it does produce plausable air combat results. One example of this is the matter of weapon range: by grossly overstating the range - and the relative range - of air to air weapons - the data grossly distorted air combat results (never mind what code said). Planes with mg could be shot at almost with impunity - but NOT in RHS - where ranges are generally equal. It is clear that the posting last year that WITP would not be supported any more is out of date - and a decision to make it better has been made - and now officially confirmed by more than one update. I can say as well that player and modder feedback is also being examined, and no item is rated as more in need of reform than the air combat routine - except maybe the land combat routine.

Finally, allow me to point out that numbers DO matter - and matter more than you seem to think. Whatever a routine does, it will in the end turn out to be a "numbers game" - both in the sense we are using data numbers and random numbers - and in the sense that the side with larger numbers has for that reason alone an inherant advantage (in general).

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: Nicholas Bell

Oh let me add this for your consideration of how hopeless this is:  Aircraft do not need weapons to shoot each other down.  Remove all devices from aircraft and casualties are just as bad as ever.  Try it yourself if you don't believe me.

Try not to be so pessimistic: this happens to be true IRL! Not only in fiction (where a heavy plane is used to take down Air Force One deliberately), but in WWII - the Germans and Japanese called these "ram attack tactics." More germane - the way the model works weapons data is used as modifiers ASSUMING that the data is rational - and not many computer models work well when you plug in all zeros. I - and our resident academic no doubt - have our own air combat models - but they were surely not intended for zero everything data sets. Mine originally used human "computers" (usually me as judge in the middle of two teams) and I assumed humans had some sense (as well as no desire to crunch numbers for nothing). Now I use conditional statements to decide if the routine is involked? This is the easiest of problems to address - and I have utter confidence in a number of Matrix programmers to be able to make it better. Total pessimism is in itself not realistic.

[Nicholas Bell]

WOW! Talk about DEPRESSING.... And you've tested this?

Yes, the die rolls for losses must be initially based on plane type.
Here is a test game I've setup just for aircombat - ignore the dates and locations, I've attempted to match something historical.

These are the results with NO DEVICES, SPEED SET TO ZERO (just for kickers)

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 12/07/43

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Tokyo [Honshu] , at 66,43

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zeke x 40
J2M2 Jack x 17

Allied aircraft
B-29 Superfortress x 238

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M5 Zeke: 24 damaged
J2M2 Jack: 12 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
B-29 Superfortress: 56 damaged

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Nagoya [Honshu] , at 64,42

Japanese aircraft
Ki-61-II Tony x 97

Allied aircraft
B-29 Superfortress x 141

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-61-II Tony: 18 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
B-29 Superfortress: 25 damaged

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Rangoon [Burma] , at 29,33

Japanese aircraft
Ki-43-I Oscar x 38
Ki-21-II Sally x 59

Allied aircraft
Buffalo/F2A x 14
Hurricane I x 26

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-43-I Oscar: 16 damaged
Ki-21-II Sally: 2 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
Hurricane I: 2 damaged

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Majuro [Nanyo] , at 84,88

Japanese aircraft
Ki-44IIa Tojo x 42

Allied aircraft
B-24J Liberator x 108

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-44IIa Tojo: 20 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
B-24J Liberator: 21 damaged

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Buka [Solomons] , at 64,93

Japanese aircraft
Ki-43-II Oscar x 36
Ki-61-I Tony x 18

Allied aircraft
B-25J Mitchell x 47
P-40E Warhawk x 59

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-61-I Tony: 1 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
B-25J Mitchell: 3 damaged
P-40E Warhawk: 1 destroyed, 8 damaged

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Shortlands [SOL] , at 64,96

Japanese aircraft
Ki-45 KAIa Nick x 21

Allied aircraft
B-26A Marauder x 36

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-45 KAIa Nick: 4 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
B-26A Marauder: 4 damaged

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Lunga [Solomons] , at 67,101

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zeke x 88
G4M1 Betty x 50

Allied aircraft
F4F-4/FM-1 Wildcat x 62

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zeke: 1 destroyed, 6 damaged
G4M1 Betty: 2 damaged


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on IJA 39th Division, at 47,34

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zeke x 36
N1K1-J George x 18

Allied aircraft
F4U-1/AU-1 Corsair x 45
SBD-3 Dauntless x 26
TBF/TBM-1 Avenger x 16

No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
F4U-1/AU-1 Corsair: 1 destroyed, 14 damaged
SBD-3 Dauntless: 3 destroyed, 13 damaged
TBF/TBM-1 Avenger: 1 damaged

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on IJA 14th 15cm Heavy Field Artillery Regiment, at 48,37

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zeke x 22
Ki-43-II Oscar x 18

Allied aircraft
Blenheim IV x 39

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M5 Zeke: 4 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
Blenheim IV: 18 damaged

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on IJA 20th Mixed Brigade, at 48,37

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zeke x 22
Ki-43-II Oscar x 18

Allied aircraft
Blenheim IV x 11

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M5 Zeke: 2 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
Blenheim IV: 10 damaged

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on IJA 35th Division, at 51,32

Japanese aircraft
Ki-43-II Oscar x 30

Allied aircraft
Mosquito FB.VI x 11
Spitfire VIII x 18

No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
Mosquito FB.VI: 2 destroyed, 7 damaged
Spitfire VIII: 2 damaged

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on ROC 38th Corps, at 45,37

Japanese aircraft
Ki-43-II Oscar x 21
Ki-51 Sonia x 23
Ki-21-II Sally x 13

Allied aircraft
Hurricane I x 6

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-51 Sonia: 5 damaged


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on ROC 14th Corps, at 43,32

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zeke x 27
N1K1-J George x 27
P1Y1 Frances x 31

Allied aircraft
F4U-1/AU-1 Corsair x 45

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M5 Zeke: 2 destroyed, 11 damaged
N1K1-J George: 10 damaged
P1Y1 Frances: 1 damaged


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on ROC 92nd Corps, at 49,31

Japanese aircraft
Ki-43-II Oscar x 48
Ki-48-I Lily x 16
Ki-21-II Sally x 31

Allied aircraft
Mosquito FB.VI x 3
Spitfire VIII x 12

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-43-II Oscar: 4 damaged
Ki-48-I Lily: 1 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
Spitfire VIII: 1 damaged

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Pp Army 91st Division, at 43,51

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zeke x 34
G3M2 Nell x 35
G4M1 Betty x 18

Allied aircraft
P-36A Mohawk x 7
P-40B Tomahawk x 14
P-40E Warhawk x 7

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zeke: 1 damaged
G3M2 Nell: 5 damaged
G4M1 Betty: 1 damaged

[el cid again]

Mike: There is one other factor that outweighs all you wrote: surprise.
Surprise conveys the initiative - and is 90% successful in air combat situations both for offense and defense - regardless of airframe statistics.
In fact, achieving surprise is slightly easier for a large aircraft than for a small one - for the one thing a large airplane theoretically has is more eyes searching the sky. Detecting the enemy first means that you can elect to engage or not - and if you elect to engage you can usually elect to do so from an angle that will not be detected. In fact, most losers in air combat NEVER saw their attacker. In which case, their ability to maneuver to evade never mattered a whit. A variation on this is the impact of spotting training: IJN invented a way to spot planes "invisible" to normal humans - and I successfully used that way to spot incoming missiles and even shells normally "invisible" to normal humans. [Having just trained this, it was truly magnificent to watch USS New Jersey, first firing practice off San Clemente - then firing for real off the DMZ - we being her protection from ASCM attacks. My spotters and I were amazed we could see individual shells - something not often reported by real world observers in naval combats - not at impact - but at launch - when they are the fastest. In that case it was very easy - she only fired one tube at a time at a very low ROF - and these are positively huge shells - so I came to regard it as very good practice for spotting missiles of similar size - but nothing like as much speed. We came to regard missile spotting as "easy" - for the same reason a Zero pilot would see his opponent at ranges most Americans regard as "impossible."] This is probably not in the designed air combat routine - but we already can put it in if we can figure out what field is critical to determining initiative in air combat?

[el cid again]

Nic: I think you may be right - that initial rolls may be based on plane type. And I think that is clever. It probably skews the results in the right direction. It is not a bad way to create a simple model at all. Done diligently it could even produce a set of results that could be validated.
I am not confident Matrix ever does validation - or even executes much of anything beyond art with due diligence - for mainly bugetary reasons - but good code done by professionals in the most demanding sense REQUIRES MORE TIME in perfection than it does to initially right anyway.
If you don't spend the vast majority of time in modifying the original code - and the routine is more than a couple of lines - it is probably pretty awful - no matter what your approach was. Matrix is now doing what needs to be done to make the code better. What more can you ask for?

[Nicholas Bell]

El Cid-

Again, the point I am attempting to make is that all the fine-tuning of manueverability is relativily pointless because the impact is so small in the overall outcome.  Unfortunately I really think you need to think more "results orientated" than theoretical until the air combat model is fixed - if ever.  After all the goal is somewhat historical air combat casualties within the game - in our lifetime, right? [:)]

And while '0' maybe not be a valid number from a programming perspective, it doesn't crash the program.  Planes without guns should not be able to shoot down other aircraft.   It does illustrate how you cannot count on the game engine being too logical.  Well, at least eliminating the bomb devices stops the planes from bombing!

[Mike Scholl]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

Mike: There is one other factor that outweighs all you wrote: surprise.
Surprise conveys the initiative - and is 90% successful in air combat situations both for offense and defense - regardless of airframe statistics.
In fact, achieving surprise is slightly easier for a large aircraft than for a small one - for the one thing a large airplane theoretically has is more eyes searching the sky. Detecting the enemy first means that you can elect to engage or not - and if you elect to engage you can usually elect to do so from an angle that will not be detected. In fact, most losers in air combat NEVER saw their attacker. In which case, their ability to maneuver to evade never mattered a whit. A variation on this is the impact of spotting training: IJN invented a way to spot planes "invisible" to normal humans - and I successfully used that way to spot incoming missiles and even shells normally "invisible" to normal humans. [Having just trained this, it was truly magnificent to watch USS New Jersey, first firing practice off San Clemente - then firing for real off the DMZ - we being her protection from ASCM attacks. My spotters and I were amazed we could see individual shells - something not often reported by real world observers in naval combats - not at impact - but at launch - when they are the fastest. In that case it was very easy - she only fired one tube at a time at a very low ROF - and these are positively huge shells - so I came to regard it as very good practice for spotting missiles of similar size - but nothing like as much speed. We came to regard missile spotting as "easy" - for the same reason a Zero pilot would see his opponent at ranges most Americans regard as "impossible."] This is probably not in the designed air combat routine - but we already can put it in if we can figure out what field is critical to determining initiative in air combat?

True..., SUPRISE (when it can be achieved) is a serious factor. But I think it's more of a perameter in the individual situation of each combat than a part of any overall "basic formula". And it only really "works" when the "victim" fails to spot you until the gunfire begins. Eric Hartman, the most successfull fighter pilot ever, said he was certain that almost half his "kills" had never seen him coming at all. All we can say for sure in a general "formula" is that in a certain percentage of cases, the side that spots the other first will have some chance of "improving" it's position for the fight to come, or aborting it's mission (which is a win for the other side anyway). It can only be put into a formula when it is consistant and mechanical, as the US Navy's "Fighter-Direction System" eventually became during the war in being able to "vector" an appropriate number of defenders into an advantageous position for intercept.

[el cid again]

We don't disagree (Mike) - I just was qualifying your remarks. Surprise is not part of maneuverability ratings - if it is present it is in other parts of the code - possibly in the pilot rating - and in the code that decides IF there is an air combat at all? I think Hartman had a clue too.

[el cid again]

Nick - I do think in terms of results. That is what "calibration" means - comparing routine results with real ones - and adjusting until the range is right.

[Drongo]

ORIGINAL: Nicholas Bell
Oh let me add this for your consideration of how hopeless this is: Aircraft do not need weapons to shoot each other down. Remove all devices from aircraft and casualties are just as bad as ever. Try it yourself if you don't believe me.

I found a "funnie" with air combat routine some time back. If an aircraft has its durability set to 0, it can be shot down by unarmed aircraft in combat. It was also noted that this result (when it occured) resulted in the immediate destruction of the attacked aircraft, never a damaging of it.

However, any nominal value above 0 will stop this occurring and since all WITP aircraft would be expected to have a durability value greater than 0, I thought it was an interesting but otherwise unimportant observation.

Otherwise, unarmed aircraft appeared unable to shoot down or inflict damage on other aircraft. By unarmed, I'm referring to both the aircraft types that never had armament in the stock game (ie most recon types) and armed aircraft like fighters that I then modified to remove all gun and bomb devices.

During my tests, I found that fighters stripped of their armaments (but otherwise unmodified) still reported "attacking" enemy aircraft at various ranges but no hits were ever achieved (unless the enemy aircraft had durability 0).

Yes, the die rolls for losses must be initially based on plane type.
Here is a test game I've setup just for aircombat - ignore the dates and locations, I've attempted to match something historical.

These are the results with NO DEVICES, SPEED SET TO ZERO (just for kickers)...................

In similar tests, I could not achieve your results, so I'm obviously wondering what you did differently.

Were your only changes to these aircraft to completely clear the armament devices for each aircraft type (both for the d/base aircraft entry and air group entry) and to set the max speed to 0 for the d/base aircraft entry (I'll assume cruise speed was untouched)?

Were all aircraft involved (both attackers and defenders) unarmed and with a max speed of 0?

Some of those aircraft used in the test don't appear to have stock names, so were you using aircraft with different characteristics from stock?

Is it correct to assume no reported damage to attacking aircraft came from the ground target?

Thanks.

[el cid again]

I have seen odd things in air combat. But never an unarmed plane shooting down another - either. And I have now run hundreds of tests - well over a thousand days - and the number of sortees must be in six figures.

[Nicholas Bell]

Here is another run. This is using RHS aircraft. All devices removed from both aircraft and units.

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 12/07/43

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Tokyo [Honshu] , at 66,43

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zeke x 40
J2M2 Jack x 17

Allied aircraft
B-29 Superfortress x 273

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M5 Zeke: 3 destroyed, 24 damaged
J2M2 Jack: 3 destroyed, 11 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
B-29 Superfortress: 26 destroyed, 37 damaged

Aircraft Attacking:
1 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 25000 feet
8 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 25000 feet
4 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 25000 feet
9 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 25000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 25000 feet
8 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 25000 feet
9 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 25000 feet
8 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 25000 feet
6 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 25000 feet
6 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 25000 feet
4 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 25000 feet
4 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 25000 feet
6 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 25000 feet
5 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 25000 feet
9 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 25000 feet
5 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 25000 feet
6 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 25000 feet
6 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 25000 feet
9 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 25000 feet
4 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 25000 feet
6 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 25000 feet
9 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 25000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 25000 feet
6 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 25000 feet
2 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 25000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 25000 feet
6 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 25000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 25000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 25000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 25000 feet
4 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 25000 feet
4 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 25000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 25000 feet
6 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 25000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 25000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 25000 feet
4 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 25000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 25000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 25000 feet
4 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 25000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 25000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 25000 feet
4 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 25000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 25000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 25000 feet
2 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 25000 feet
1 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 25000 feet
2 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 25000 feet
1 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 25000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 25000 feet
2 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 25000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 25000 feet
2 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 25000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 25000 feet
2 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 25000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 25000 feet
2 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 25000 feet
2 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 25000 feet
2 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 25000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Nagoya [Honshu] , at 64,42

Japanese aircraft
Ki-61-II Tony x 85

Allied aircraft
B-29 Superfortress x 134

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-61-II Tony: 3 destroyed, 15 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
B-29 Superfortress: 12 destroyed, 7 damaged

Aircraft Attacking:
2 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 25000 feet
4 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 25000 feet
6 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 25000 feet
9 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 25000 feet
9 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 25000 feet
9 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 25000 feet
9 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 25000 feet
6 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 25000 feet
5 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 25000 feet
6 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 25000 feet
6 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 25000 feet
2 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 25000 feet
4 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 25000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 25000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 25000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 25000 feet
2 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 25000 feet
1 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 25000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 25000 feet
4 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 25000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 25000 feet
4 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 25000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 25000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 25000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 25000 feet
2 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 25000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 25000 feet
2 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 25000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 25000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Rangoon [Burma] , at 29,33

Japanese aircraft
Ki-43-I Oscar x 38
Ki-21-II Sally x 43

Allied aircraft
Buffalo/F2A x 9
Hurricane I x 22

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-43-I Oscar: 11 destroyed, 1 damaged
Ki-21-II Sally: 7 destroyed, 3 damaged


Aircraft Attacking:
16 x Ki-21-II Sally bombing at 20000 feet
2 x Ki-21-II Sally bombing at 15000 feet
12 x Ki-21-II Sally bombing at 20000 feet
3 x Ki-21-II Sally bombing at 20000 feet
3 x Ki-21-II Sally bombing at 15000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Majuro [Nanyo] , at 84,88

Japanese aircraft
Ki-44IIa Tojo x 42

Allied aircraft
B-24J Liberator x 93

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-44IIa Tojo: 22 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
B-24J Liberator: 10 destroyed, 17 damaged

Aircraft Attacking:
5 x B-24J Liberator bombing at 15000 feet
7 x B-24J Liberator bombing at 15000 feet
4 x B-24J Liberator bombing at 15000 feet
6 x B-24J Liberator bombing at 15000 feet
8 x B-24J Liberator bombing at 15000 feet
6 x B-24J Liberator bombing at 15000 feet
8 x B-24J Liberator bombing at 15000 feet
3 x B-24J Liberator bombing at 15000 feet
3 x B-24J Liberator bombing at 15000 feet
3 x B-24J Liberator bombing at 15000 feet
6 x B-24J Liberator bombing at 15000 feet
3 x B-24J Liberator bombing at 15000 feet
3 x B-24J Liberator bombing at 15000 feet
3 x B-24J Liberator bombing at 15000 feet
3 x B-24J Liberator bombing at 15000 feet
3 x B-24J Liberator bombing at 15000 feet
2 x B-24J Liberator bombing at 15000 feet
2 x B-24J Liberator bombing at 15000 feet
3 x B-24J Liberator bombing at 15000 feet
2 x B-24J Liberator bombing at 15000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Jaluit [Nanyo] , at 82,88

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zeke x 18

Allied aircraft
B-17E/F Fortress x 24

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M5 Zeke: 1 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
B-17E/F Fortress: 4 damaged

Aircraft Attacking:
9 x B-17E/F Fortress bombing at 15000 feet
9 x B-17E/F Fortress bombing at 15000 feet
3 x B-17E/F Fortress bombing at 15000 feet
3 x B-17E/F Fortress bombing at 15000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Nauru Island [GLB] , at 77,95

Japanese aircraft
Ki-49 Helen x 27

Allied aircraft
F4U-1/AU-1 Corsair x 30

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-49 Helen: 8 destroyed, 11 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
F4U-1/AU-1 Corsair: 4 damaged

Aircraft Attacking:
19 x Ki-49 Helen bombing at 15000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Buka [Solomons] , at 64,93

Japanese aircraft
Ki-43-II Oscar x 36
Ki-61-I Tony x 18

Allied aircraft
B-25J Mitchell x 46
P-40E Warhawk x 54

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-61-I Tony: 1 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
B-25J Mitchell: 1 destroyed, 3 damaged
P-40E Warhawk: 8 destroyed, 2 damaged

Aircraft Attacking:
9 x B-25J Mitchell bombing at 5000 feet
18 x B-25J Mitchell bombing at 5000 feet
3 x B-25J Mitchell bombing at 5000 feet
8 x B-25J Mitchell bombing at 5000 feet
4 x B-25J Mitchell bombing at 5000 feet
3 x B-25J Mitchell bombing at 5000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Shortlands [SOL] , at 64,96

Japanese aircraft
Ki-45 KAIa Nick x 21

Allied aircraft
B-26A Marauder x 27

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-45 KAIa Nick: 3 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
B-26A Marauder: 2 destroyed, 1 damaged

Aircraft Attacking:
4 x B-26A Marauder bombing at 15000 feet
4 x B-26A Marauder bombing at 15000 feet
6 x B-26A Marauder bombing at 15000 feet
3 x B-26A Marauder bombing at 15000 feet
3 x B-26A Marauder bombing at 15000 feet
3 x B-26A Marauder bombing at 15000 feet
2 x B-26A Marauder bombing at 15000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Lunga [Solomons] , at 67,101

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zeke x 88
G4M1 Betty x 53

Allied aircraft
F4F-4/FM-1 Wildcat x 62

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zeke: 8 destroyed, 2 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
F4F-4/FM-1 Wildcat: 1 damaged

Aircraft Attacking:
20 x G4M1 Betty bombing at 15000 feet
20 x G4M1 Betty bombing at 15000 feet
5 x G4M1 Betty bombing at 15000 feet
3 x G4M1 Betty bombing at 15000 feet
3 x G4M1 Betty bombing at 15000 feet
2 x G4M1 Betty bombing at 15000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on IJA 39th Division, at 47,34

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zeke x 36
N1K1-J George x 18

Allied aircraft
F4U-1/AU-1 Corsair x 45
SBD-3 Dauntless x 26
TBF/TBM-1 Avenger x 16

No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
F4U-1/AU-1 Corsair: 13 destroyed
SBD-3 Dauntless: 5 destroyed, 4 damaged
TBF/TBM-1 Avenger: 2 destroyed

Aircraft Attacking:
12 x SBD-3 Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
14 x TBF/TBM-1 Avenger bombing at 10000 feet
9 x SBD-3 Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on IJA 35th Division, at 51,32

Japanese aircraft
Ki-43-II Oscar x 30

Allied aircraft
Mosquito FB.VI x 11
Spitfire VIII x 18

No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
Mosquito FB.VI: 1 destroyed
Spitfire VIII: 1 destroyed, 1 damaged

Aircraft Attacking:
10 x Mosquito FB.VI bombing at 2000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on JNAF 301st Engineer Aviation Battalion, at 36,37

Japanese aircraft
Ki-84 Frank x 36

Allied aircraft
B-25J Mitchell x 18
P-47D Thunderbolt x 26
P-51D Mustang x 39

No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
B-25J Mitchell: 1 destroyed, 2 damaged
P-47D Thunderbolt: 4 destroyed
P-51D Mustang: 4 destroyed

Aircraft Attacking:
8 x B-25J Mitchell bombing at 10000 feet
9 x B-25J Mitchell bombing at 10000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on ROC 38th Corps, at 45,37

Japanese aircraft
Ki-43-II Oscar x 21
Ki-51 Sonia x 23
Ki-21-II Sally x 18

Allied aircraft
Hurricane I x 6

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-43-II Oscar: 1 destroyed
Ki-51 Sonia: 1 destroyed, 7 damaged


Aircraft Attacking:
18 x Ki-21-II Sally bombing at 20000 feet
22 x Ki-51 Sonia bombing at 2000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on ROC 14th Corps, at 43,32

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zeke x 54
N1K1-J George x 27
P1Y1 Frances x 36

Allied aircraft
F4U-1/AU-1 Corsair x 45

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M5 Zeke: 34 destroyed
N1K1-J George: 7 destroyed, 1 damaged
P1Y1 Frances: 2 destroyed, 6 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
F4U-1/AU-1 Corsair: 1 damaged

Aircraft Attacking:
17 x P1Y1 Frances bombing at 15000 feet
17 x P1Y1 Frances bombing at 15000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Pp Army 91st Division, at 43,51

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zeke x 32
G3M2 Nell x 19
G4M1 Betty x 9

Allied aircraft
P-36A Mohawk x 7
P-40B Tomahawk x 14
P-40E Warhawk x 7

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zeke: 1 destroyed
G3M2 Nell: 2 damaged
G4M1 Betty: 2 damaged


Aircraft Attacking:
19 x G3M2 Nell bombing at 15000 feet
9 x G4M1 Betty bombing at 15000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Time Surface Combat, near Shanghai [E China] at 52,39

Japanese Ships
CA Iwate

Allied Ships
PG Wake, Shell hits 5, and is sunk

[Nicholas Bell]

Unarmed

[Nicholas Bell]

Unarmed

[Sardaukar]

Only flak losses ?

[Nicholas Bell]

Unarmed

[Nicholas Bell]

Only a few Flak losses

[Nicholas Bell]

Unarmed B-29s

[Sardaukar]

Very weird ! [X(]

[el cid again]

This does not seem to jive with running in a real scenario. It must be some sort of test bed. If I can see the test bed I might be able to find what the issue is?

I still assert that zero field values are outside the design range of any routine, and should not be expected to produce rational results. It is an easy case to avoid too - code wise. Just if around any such values. But why would they bother with nonsensical code like that? There will never be a fighter or bomber with zero field values. I am not upset with Matrix or code for these results - at least not yet. It is impossible to do analysis of this sort out of context (that is, without seeing the code) and be safe in criticism. Literally impossible - because there are too many possibilities. In court we would lose - if somehow this was an issue - if we wanted to proove the code is "wrong." It is not a design case, and lots of things might be happening we just don't understand. Starting with Nic's guess that the values are type related at root. That is a reasonable way to organize such a routine - and no one is going to code a fighter or bomber on the assumption any rational player is going to mod it to no weapons.

Nic is hijacking this thread - and is NOT contributing to developing a better formula or criteria to define maneuverability. I object. He is, in fact, trying to say "don't bother - it cannot be worth the effort." Explicitly so. Well - he is twice wrong: it does matter - and it is something I have been asked to do; and he is wrong to interfere with the process on principle even if it didn't matter.