Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion

[Ballista]

As an aside, just look how good the MWIF maps are (aesthetically) compared to the WIFE maps. Massive improvement all around, without a doubt......

I can't wait to get to scroll across the map....

[Neilster]

ORIGINAL: Ballista

As an aside, just look how good the MWIF maps are (aesthetically) compared to the WIFE maps. Massive improvement all around, without a doubt......

I can't wait to get to scroll across the map....

That's because some of us faced-down the WiF fundamentalists. [:'(]

Courage comrades!

Cheers, Neilster

[Peter Stauffenberg]

ORIGINAL: Toed
If we are moving the border I suggest that it is just moved in the forest hex 3xNE of Oslo. Because the border is, with the exeption of a ~60 km * 30 km Norwegian "bite" at Trysil (a bit small to be represented as a whole hex imo), almost a straight line from east of Oslo up to east Trondheim and this one change would make it as straight as a north to south line can get in a hexgrid.

I agree with you that the hex 3xNE of Oslo is the most important to fix. It's the row where Norway is currently 6 hexes wide while Sweden is only 3 hexes wide. So I concur that this hex is the one to really fix. We can live with the others because they are partly Norwegian and partly Swedish all along the border. But thehex 3xNE of Oslo is clearly much more Swedish than Norwegian. Funny I say that as a Norwegian. Having a larger Norway is a sweet thought. [X(] But I prefer more to have a pretty accurate map. [;)]

I also noticed the others who have posted have agreed so I guess the hex 3xNE of Oslo can be made Swedish and then we let the borders in Scandinavia rest.

Do you agree too, Steve?

Froonp, can you do this and make a map showing the changed border if Steve agrees?

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Borger Borgersen

ORIGINAL: Toed
If we are moving the border I suggest that it is just moved in the forest hex 3xNE of Oslo. Because the border is, with the exeption of a ~60 km * 30 km Norwegian "bite" at Trysil (a bit small to be represented as a whole hex imo), almost a straight line from east of Oslo up to east Trondheim and this one change would make it as straight as a north to south line can get in a hexgrid.

I agree with you that the hex 3xNE of Oslo is the most important to fix. It's the row where Norway is currently 6 hexes wide while Sweden is only 3 hexes wide. So I concur that this hex is the one to really fix. We can live with the others because they are partly Norwegian and partly Swedish all along the border. But thehex 3xNE of Oslo is clearly much more Swedish than Norwegian. Funny I say that as a Norwegian. Having a larger Norway is a sweet thought. [X(] But I prefer more to have a pretty accurate map. [;)]

I also noticed the others who have posted have agreed so I guess the hex 3xNE of Oslo can be made Swedish and then we let the borders in Scandinavia rest.

Do you agree too, Steve?

Froonp, can you do this and make a map showing the changed border if Steve agrees?

Patrice is on vacation with his family (wife and son, I believe) and should be back online in a couple of days. I'll leave this up to him - and the majority viewpoint, of course. The change only requires modifying one number in the map data. This also applies to the new map that c92nichj recently posted.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

There is one point that confuses me about the use of Narvik for shipping the Swedish resources to Germany - once the northern Baltic freezes. Why weren't they sent by rail down to southern Sweden (or Norway). Why was Narvik and the coastal shipping route essential?

[JagdFlanker]

...The history of modern Narvik begins in the 1870s, when the Swedish government began to understand the potential of the iron ore mines in Kiruna, Sweden. If you look at a map, you'll see that the notion of obtaining iron ore from Kiruna had one significant problem: where could it be shipped from? After all, the nearest Swedish port, Luleå, has limitations: it is covered with ice all winter, it is far from Kiruna and it allows only medium-sized bulk freight vessels. Realising these problems, a Swedish company (Gällivarre Aktiebolag) built a railway to Narvik, as the port there is ice free thanks to the warm Gulf Stream, and is naturally large, allowing boats of virtually any size to anchor (208 metres long, 27 metres deep).

LKAB, the mining corporation, still ships the majority of its ore from Narvik (a total 25 million tons a year) and the corporation is still important in the area, both as an employer and landowner, although its influence is not as prominent now as it has been in previous years. (from http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A533125 )

in the end transporting ore by rail is less efficient and more expensive than by ship, and narvik was the closest and best port to do the job. here's a very interesting post about how narvik/norway was overrated as an important german objective once france was taken:

http://boards.historychannel.com/thread ... 5534143794

[trees trees]

Excellent link, thanks for posting that.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Flanker Leader

...The history of modern Narvik begins in the 1870s, when the Swedish government began to understand the potential of the iron ore mines in Kiruna, Sweden. If you look at a map, you'll see that the notion of obtaining iron ore from Kiruna had one significant problem: where could it be shipped from? After all, the nearest Swedish port, Luleå, has limitations: it is covered with ice all winter, it is far from Kiruna and it allows only medium-sized bulk freight vessels. Realising these problems, a Swedish company (Gällivarre Aktiebolag) built a railway to Narvik, as the port there is ice free thanks to the warm Gulf Stream, and is naturally large, allowing boats of virtually any size to anchor (208 metres long, 27 metres deep).

LKAB, the mining corporation, still ships the majority of its ore from Narvik (a total 25 million tons a year) and the corporation is still important in the area, both as an employer and landowner, although its influence is not as prominent now as it has been in previous years. (from http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A533125 )

in the end transporting ore by rail is less efficient and more expensive than by ship, and narvik was the closest and best port to do the job. here's a very interesting post about how narvik/norway was overrated as an important german objective once france was taken:

http://boards.historychannel.com/thread ... 5534143794

Thanks for the information.

I will have to write special code that only permits the 3 Swedish resources to go by rail to Narvik or Lulea (Boden). Specifically. it will have to forbid their movement over other rail lines.

[Froonp]

I think it is sufficient to map the glaciers in Norway as alpine hexsides, rather than inventing a new hex type. They are not as large as a full hex, and it is possible for people to cross them if they are lightly equipped and properly trained. As for Svartisen, ordinary units should be allowed to pass from north to south on both the east and the west side of the glacier.

While I do not really have an opinion about having the Svartisen displayed as an Ice hex or an Alpine hexside (well, indeed I prefer it as an Ice hex), I wanted to stress the fact that this "new" hex type was not created only for the Norwegian Glaciers, but that the Norwegian Glaciers use them.
I think it was created to display Greenland, and other icy places.

[Froonp]

I will have to write special code that only permits the 3 Swedish resources to go by rail to Narvik or Lulea (Boden). Specifically. it will have to forbid their movement over other rail lines.

Well, I agree that the Swedish Iron Ore was shipped by sea through Narvik in real life, but nowhere does the WiF FE game makes it mandatory for Germany to ship the 3 Swedish resources by Sea. Especially putting 3 CP in the North Sea Sea Zone. The 3 CP that transport the 3 Swedish Resources are placed in the Baltic.
This particularity of the shippment of the Swedish Iron Ore is taken care of by a special rule :

****************************************
8.2.10 Iced-in ports
(...)
If the last impulse of the turn was blizzard or snow in the Arctic weather zone, Germany can only ship the Swedish resources through the Baltic Sea area if Narvik is not controlled by an Allied major power [Designer’s Note: this represents the fact that the resources were transported through neutral Norwegian coastal waters during Winter].
****************************************

So, I think there is no need for coding what you wrote above, just to code what the rule 8.2.10. says, isn't it ?

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

I will have to write special code that only permits the 3 Swedish resources to go by rail to Narvik or Lulea (Boden). Specifically. it will have to forbid their movement over other rail lines.

Well, I agree that the Swedish Iron Ore was shipped by sea through Narvik in real life, but nowhere does the WiF FE game makes it mandatory for Germany to ship the 3 Swedish resources by Sea. Especially putting 3 CP in the North Sea Sea Zone. The 3 CP that transport the 3 Swedish Resources are placed in the Baltic.
This particularity of the shippment of the Swedish Iron Ore is taken care of by a special rule :

****************************************
8.2.10 Iced-in ports
(...)
If the last impulse of the turn was blizzard or snow in the Arctic weather zone, Germany can only ship the Swedish resources through the Baltic Sea area if Narvik is not controlled by an Allied major power [Designer’s Note: this represents the fact that the resources were transported through neutral Norwegian coastal waters during Winter].
****************************************

So, I think there is no need for coding what you wrote above, just to code what the rule 8.2.10. says, isn't it ?

The normal rules say that resources can be shipped by rail. So, sending the Swedish resources by rail through Finland and Leningrad to Germany or the USSR would seem to be possible. Is that a possibility that WIF FE RAW intended to exist?

[Froonp]

Froonp, can you do this and make a map showing the changed border if Steve agrees?

Here is how it would look if making the hex 3 hexes NE of Oslo Swede, and adding the Swede River.

Hey, you Swede down here, aren't you trying to make Sweden an impregnable fortress ??? [:D]

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
The normal rules say that resources can be shipped by rail. So, sending the Swedish resources by rail through Finland and Leningrad to Germany or the USSR would seem to be possible. Is that a possibility that WIF FE RAW intended to exist?

Sure.
In history, Leningrad never was German, but nothing would have prevented the Germans to ship the Iron Ore through here if it had been.

If something prevents them, this means that the rail between Sweden and Finland and Leningrad is wrong somewhere, and I would prefer to fix that rather to prevent a given RP not to take a given Rail.

[Froonp]

Patrice is on vacation with his family (wife and son, I believe) and should be back online in a couple of days. I'll leave this up to him - and the majority viewpoint, of course. The change only requires modifying one number in the map data. This also applies to the new map that c92nichj recently posted.

Yes, I was, look, some WiF FE (Fog of War) SAS spy even managed to caught me red handed !!!

[Froonp]

BTW, here is the status of the unresolved issues (the 4 pending ones plus the new that you raised while I was sunbathing in Corsica) :

Tampere (35,47) (Borger) : Add. Third largest city.
6 Voters : 50 % YES, 50 % NO.
City / Finland

Lake Femunden (34,38 E) (Borger) : Remove.
6 Voters : 17 % YES, 83 % NO.
Lake / Norway

Dalälven () (Panzerjaeger Hortlund) : Add.
3 Voters : 100 % YES, 0 % NO.
River / Sweden

Bodø (Bodo) (25,41) (Borger) : Add. For supply reasons.
8 Voters : 50 % YES, 50 % NO.
Minor Port / Norway

Clear hex (Resource) (40,35) (ullern) : Change to Mountain.
5 Voters : 40 % YES, 60 % NO.
Terrain / Norway

Glacier Svartisen (alpine) (26,41) (gbirkeli) : Make it Alpine hexside.
2 Voters : 50 % YES, 50 % NO.
Terrain / Norway

Sweden & Norway Border 1 (36,39) (Borger) : Forest hex 2xNE of Oslo should maybe become Swedish.
4 Voters : 25 % YES, 75 % NO.
Border /

Sweden & Norway Border 2 (35,39) (Borger) : Forest hex 3xNE of Oslo should maybe become Swedish.
4 Voters : 75 % YES, 25 % NO.
Border /

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Froonp
BTW, here is the status of the unresolved issues (the 4 pending ones plus the new that you raised while I was sunbathing in Corsica) :

Tampere (35,47) (Borger) : Add. Third largest city.
6 Voters : 50 % YES, 50 % NO.
City / Finland

Lake Femunden (34,38 E) (Borger) : Remove.
6 Voters : 17 % YES, 83 % NO.
Lake / Norway

Dalälven () (Panzerjaeger Hortlund) : Add.
3 Voters : 100 % YES, 0 % NO.
River / Sweden

Bodø (Bodo) (25,41) (Borger) : Add. For supply reasons.
8 Voters : 50 % YES, 50 % NO.
Minor Port / Norway

Clear hex (Resource) (40,35) (ullern) : Change to Mountain.
5 Voters : 40 % YES, 60 % NO.
Terrain / Norway

Glacier Svartisen (alpine) (26,41) (gbirkeli) : Make it Alpine hexside.
2 Voters : 50 % YES, 50 % NO.
Terrain / Norway

Sweden & Norway Border 1 (36,39) (Borger) : Forest hex 2xNE of Oslo should maybe become Swedish.
4 Voters : 25 % YES, 75 % NO.
Border /

Sweden & Norway Border 2 (35,39) (Borger) : Forest hex 3xNE of Oslo should maybe become Swedish.
4 Voters : 75 % YES, 25 % NO.
Border /

I do not feel strongly about these, but I am quite willing to make the final decisions: as indicated. Where a majority existed, I went with the majority. The others are simply my personal preference.

[Toed]

ORIGINAL: Froonp
Here is how it would look if making the hex 3 hexes NE of Oslo Swede, and adding the Swede River.

Hey, you Swede down here, aren't you trying to make Sweden an impregnable fortress ??? [:D]

Shouldn't it be??? [:D]

Noticed you put the name of the river Dalälven on the map. Thought I'd post the names of the other rivers in Sweden that are shown on the map. Starting with the border-river with Finland then going south: Torneälven, Luleälven, Skellefteälven, Umeälven, Indalsälven, Ljusnan.

Hope that helps. There are a couple of more of those rivers in Sweden (yes we have too much water everywhere) but I'd hate to make it too hard for Patrice to conquer it. [;)]

[Peter Stauffenberg]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

ORIGINAL: Froonp
BTW, here is the status of the unresolved issues (the 4 pending ones plus the new that you raised while I was sunbathing in Corsica) :

Tampere (35,47) (Borger) : Add. Third largest city.
6 Voters : 50 % YES, 50 % NO.
City / Finland

Lake Femunden (34,38 E) (Borger) : Remove.
6 Voters : 17 % YES, 83 % NO.
Lake / Norway

Dalälven () (Panzerjaeger Hortlund) : Add.
3 Voters : 100 % YES, 0 % NO.
River / Sweden

Bodø (Bodo) (25,41) (Borger) : Add. For supply reasons.
8 Voters : 50 % YES, 50 % NO.
Minor Port / Norway

Clear hex (Resource) (40,35) (ullern) : Change to Mountain.
5 Voters : 40 % YES, 60 % NO.
Terrain / Norway

Glacier Svartisen (alpine) (26,41) (gbirkeli) : Make it Alpine hexside.
2 Voters : 50 % YES, 50 % NO.
Terrain / Norway

Sweden & Norway Border 1 (36,39) (Borger) : Forest hex 2xNE of Oslo should maybe become Swedish.
4 Voters : 25 % YES, 75 % NO.
Border /

Sweden & Norway Border 2 (35,39) (Borger) : Forest hex 3xNE of Oslo should maybe become Swedish.
4 Voters : 75 % YES, 25 % NO.
Border /

I do not feel strongly about these, but I am quite willing to make the final decisions: as indicated. Where a majority existed, I went with the majority. The others are simply my personal preference.

I concur with the votes from Steve and think the YES'es can be implemented and the NO's discarded. Soon we can close the Scandinavian map chapter. [;)]

[Peter Stauffenberg]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

Patrice is on vacation with his family (wife and son, I believe) and should be back online in a couple of days. I'll leave this up to him - and the majority viewpoint, of course. The change only requires modifying one number in the map data. This also applies to the new map that c92nichj recently posted.

Yes, I was, look, some WiF FE (Fog of War) SAS spy even managed to caught me red handed !!!

[:D][:D][:D] So THAT is where you have been hiding. [;)] Welcome back from your well deserved holiday. [8D]

[Hortlund]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

Froonp, can you do this and make a map showing the changed border if Steve agrees?

Here is how it would look if making the hex 3 hexes NE of Oslo Swede, and adding the Swede River.

Hey, you Swede down here, aren't you trying to make Sweden an impregnable fortress ??? [:D]

Looks great!

Am I the only one who has been involved in a wif-game that included an epic struggle over Sweden btw? Fortress Europe was too strong for my overlord ambitions (I was US/UK) so I decided to sneak into Germany from the north. Norway was German, but Sweden was neutral. I invaded Norway and caught Jerry completely off-guard. Norway is not good enough though, since you cant enter the Baltic with just Norway, so I decided to invade Sweden. Big misstake. The Swedish army is not really an easy foe and especially not when the Krauts are sending in reinforcements like there is no tomorrow. Taking Stockholm by land is hellishly hard, just look at the map and imagine what an attack from Norway to Stockholm looks like.

Eventually I did manage to take Sweden, but it took the better part of a year, and by the time I was done there, the Krauts had managed to reinforce northern Germany enough to make any invasion into Germany proper look like a very difficult task.

I'll never forget the epic sea battles in the baltic though, where most of Home Fleet were slugging it out with Bismarck and Tirpitz. Good times.