To defend Chungking

[niceguy2005]

ORIGINAL: ctangus
Back to the OP's Q - do you have any room & forces left to maneuver with? Personally I'd risk weakening the garrison at Chungking if there was a chance of cutting, or even just threatening your opponent's supply lines. Another thought (might be considered gamey) - if you have any units at less than 1/3 strength, use them - if you lose 'em you'll get them back stronger. A pure siege will probably be futile, ultimately.

I can't answer this question here, but I will address China in my next AAR update.

[ctangus]

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005


China is for the most part hopeless if your opponent is skilled in the art of siege, for all of China is no more than one big castle under siege. It is not a game of move and counter move as much as it is of waiting out the supply levels of the defenders. The analysis I have been doing in my game says that Chunking can be beaten IF the Japanese player plays his cards right.

The basic problem with China is that with the supply system the way it is it is virtually impossible for Chinese units to go on the offensive. While they are great defenders it takes about half the Chinese army to move even 3 divisions of Japanese troops. Without a serious threat of counter attack the Japanese will eventually wear an opponent down.

You may be right, but I still refuse to admit it. [:'(] I want to play the game in China & take my chances. (Perverse as it may sound I like it.) The supply drain from bombing can be lessened by applying pressure elsewhere on the map. Supply can also be captured on occasion.

Two corps will usually route a Jap div in the clear. Less will do once their experience is built up. I once routed @60K Japs with maybe 100-120K troops in a woods hex, after cutting their most direct supply line. I'd agree taking a well-fortified & defended base would be rough.

[ctangus]

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005

I can't answer this question here, but I will address China in my next AAR update.

I'll check it out.

[Mynok]

CHS makes some important changes to the map and road structure that make it extremely difficult for the Japanese to force the issue in China. I like the changes.

In the stock game, the Japanese can certainly push the Chinese back to the innermost cities without much trouble.

[niceguy2005]

ORIGINAL: ctangus
You may be right, but I still refuse to admit it. [:'(] I want to play the game in China & take my chances.

I will agree with one thing. Never stop fighting.

[tsimmonds]

ORIGINAL: Mynok


CHS makes some important changes to the map and road structure that make it extremely difficult for the Japanese to force the issue in China. I like the changes.

In the stock game, the Japanese can certainly push the Chinese back to the innermost cities without much trouble.

The map changes in China are essential for a more realistic game. I'd never consider a game using the stock map.

[moses]

China is quite defensable in the current version of the stock game. In fact I would go so far as to say; If the allied player simply sends a large mass of troops toward Changsa in the first couple days and just defends there till the death it is very difficult for Japan to do a whole lot.

Sure Changsa may eventually be taken but then you just retreat to the next city (which is wooded terrain and defend there.

The total routs that were common when the game first came out can now only be accomplished against players who are totally outmatched or who make serious errors in the early going.

[bradfordkay]

"I'd never consider a game using the stock map. "


A wholehearted BEER.

[jolly_pillager]

ORIGINAL: ctangus

The solution to the Chinese Exp. Army is simple - don't lose China. [;)]

I refuse to believe China is hopeless for the allies. Ultimately I might be proven wrong but as late as Feb '43 I'm mostly doing well there. To be fair to others, I'm only playing on AB's map which helps.

Back to the OP's Q - do you have any room & forces left to maneuver with? Personally I'd risk weakening the garrison at Chungking if there was a chance of cutting, or even just threatening your opponent's supply lines. Another thought (might be considered gamey) - if you have any units at less than 1/3 strength, use them - if you lose 'em you'll get them back stronger. A pure siege will probably be futile, ultimately.

I disagree.

If you are playing a stock game versus a reasonably competent Japanese player, you are doomed in China. China has neither the forces nor (more criticaly) the supplies to fight off a well planned Japanese assault.

[jolly_pillager]

ORIGINAL: pauk

i do agree with you. The problem with China for the Allies is this is only theatre where than CAN NOT make a mistake. If they make a mistake than there is a big chance that they will be steamrolled....

Well, i can say that evil part of me is enjoying knowing that Allies are are in same position as Japanese in the game, at least in one theatre[;)] (Japan can't affort a mistake anywhere and anytime!)

My only problem with this is the historical factor (again). If Japan could have so easily crushed China why didn't it? Why go into a what? 5 year stalemate? If a Jap player can steamroll through the place, why did the real Japanese not?

This is one of the two prime reasons I will only ever play the CHS scenario (the other being A2A loss rates).

[New York Jets]

Could someone please provide a link wherE I can download the CHS mod? I'm playing a practice Southwest Pacific scenario against the AI and see that the A2A losses are way too high. (BTW what does "SRA" mean?) The AARs I've read using stock rules have China falling way to easily. Japan could not have committed this much effort to the China campaign and had a dog's chance in H3ll of doing wjhat I've seen done in the DEI and elswhere given the logostical situation in reakity.

I'm not saying the game should be molded to provide strict historical represenation of the results. Just that the Japanese player really has only one real option, ALL Continental Asia or ALL Pacific. The Japanese player running amok everywhere (i.e. taking China, India, and the DEI while threating Australia should only happen to a completely incompetent Allied player in a properly programmed game) should not happen, given circumstances and doctrine.

[Andrew Brown]

ORIGINAL: Chris Trog

Could someone please provide a link wherE I can download the CHS mod?

Here you go:

CHS Download page

If you want a game with reduced A2A losses, you should try the "Nik mod like" (scenarios 157/158) or experimental (159/160) versions.

[tsimmonds]

BTW what does "SRA" mean?

Southern Resource Area. Essentially synonymous with DEI.

[Hoplosternum]

I was under the impression that the new fort levels in later WitP versions has meant that China has a good chance of survival. Early on the Japanese air force is needed elsewhere so the Chinese player has an excellent chance of digging in at the outer cities. I have not taken or lost China yet, although my opponents don't seem to make that much of a play for it (Im a bit suspicious of Drex though [:)]). I've reached Chungking as the Japanese but have no real hope of taking it. It would require too much of my airforce to even make a serious attempt.

The Japanese reinforcements (with no corresponding Chinese ones) may make the battle swing in the Japanese players favour long term. But the allies should be able to begin putting pressure on the Japanese somewhere long before a 1943 Japanese attack on China can do much damage. China is quite a big point swing but unless the Japanese can redeploy a lot of those troops to the Marshalls/Marianas/Carolines or take India before the allies attack there who cares. The allies can simply hit where the Japanese aren't and bomb Japan and interdict the resources and oil?

[Hoplosternum]

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005

China is for the most part hopeless if your opponent is skilled in the art of siege, for all of China is no more than one big castle under siege. It is not a game of move and counter move as much as it is of waiting out the supply levels of the defenders. The analysis I have been doing in my game says that Chunking can be beaten IF the Japanese player plays his cards right.

The basic problem with China is that with the supply system the way it is it is virtually impossible for Chinese units to go on the offensive. While they are great defenders it takes about half the Chinese army to move even 3 divisions of Japanese troops. Without a serious threat of counter attack the Japanese will eventually wear an opponent down.

This is a potential problem. The lack of Chinese punch means that the Japanese cannot be kept 'honest'. The Chinese cannot really exploit Japanese mistakes while any Chinese ones are tough to recover from.

While I think Japan will struggle to conquer China in time to do him that much good, an unscrupulous Japan can bottle up the Chinese and march numerous divivons out (via Vietnam) without paying a PP cost to garisson Malaya/Thailand/Burma. Not enough to conquer India perhaps but allows for larger garissons elsewhere with the forces freed up.

It's much cheaper for the Japanese to do this as it does not comit large amounts of supply and air forces that should be being demanded by other parts of the Japanese empire by that stage.

Not that I have come across this but its clearly doable.

[tsimmonds]

I know that some PBEMs use a house rule preventing the redeployment of units from any restricted commands without first paying PPs.

[Sneer]

yes and it is good
however if china is free of allied units i see no reason to pay anything to move units out

[niceguy2005]

ORIGINAL: moses

China is quite defensable in the current version of the stock game. In fact I would go so far as to say; If the allied player simply sends a large mass of troops toward Changsa in the first couple days and just defends there till the death it is very difficult for Japan to do a whole lot.

Sure Changsa may eventually be taken but then you just retreat to the next city (which is wooded terrain and defend there.

The total routs that were common when the game first came out can now only be accomplished against players who are totally outmatched or who make serious errors in the early going.

I've been a little too busy to respond to this, but would have to ask the question: why must China take Changsa at all? There are many roads that lead to Chunking or other cities. I'm not sure I understand the significance of Changsa.

[tsimmonds]

It dominates the road net. China doesn't need it, but IJ does.

[dtravel]

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005

I've been a little too busy to respond to this, but would have to ask the question: why must China take Changsa at all? There are many roads that lead to Chunking or other cities. I'm not sure I understand the significance of Changsa.

And China doesn't need to take it. Changsa starts under Chinese control.