Andy Mac v PZB ....The Allies Fight Back

[Andy Mac]

I will check it out and see but I suspect its heavily garrisoned worth investigating though.
 
 

[aztez]

I would recommend using LBA cover for next phases. You really need repair and replenish your naval forces.
 
This naturally means that no huge "leaps" are possible but what the hurry. Since I doubt you lacking any ground bombers nor fighters that would be an good strategy.
 
Also by looking the screenshot I think you need more bases in Timor region from which to support your future operations.

[Andy Mac]

LBA is one option and I certainly want a few more bases, my fleet is in reasonable shape with the refitted ships on the way to rejoin the remaining operational ships.
 
I will be as strong as when I attacked the Marianas in about 20 days aqlbeit without full replenishment gps on my CVR's but I wont be refilling all of those again anyway.
 
The hurry is the game endss in 12 months I dont have a choice I NEED to attack if I dont the game will end with me being nowhere I need to get into his vitals and squeeze soon and I need to get bases in range of China to start interrupting this dammed training programme.
 
Timor is heavily guarded and behind the lines unless I want to head towards Java its a sink that would cost me to much.
 
I do need to pick off a few bases around northern NG and Sulawesi to strengthen my base of operations

[Jim D Burns]

ORIGINAL: Nemo121
the solution might be for both sides to give up something...

This cracks me up. [:D] I wonder how many Japanese players would be willing to "give up" their KB deathstar for the first two years because its CAP is impenatrable. PZB got a little of the same medicine he dealt out for over two game years and reverted to a game exploit to get around it. I'm with Andy on this one, I'd walk from any game where an opponent did this.

Jim

[Andy Mac]

p.s. I am sitting watching In Harms Way at the moment with PT Boats about to ambush Yamato !!!!
 
Not seen this film beforevery exciting a war film I havent seen before !!!!
 
 

[Andy Mac]

Har now there is evidence 3 PT boats sank 1 DD and a CA for the loss of all 3 boats see its in Hollywood there is my evidence to say PT Boats are underpowered in this game....
 
Its a John Wayne war film so it must be true [:D][:D][:D] 

[Andy Mac]

Oooh this is exciting an Omaha class CL (USS Swayback) and some DD's are going toe to toe with the mighty Yamato !!!!

[Andy Mac]

I like this film [:D][:D][:D]
 
The Duke saves the day

[Feinder]

I'm sorry, somebody catch me up here. What's the issue here? I hate to see one of the long-running PBEMs go south.

-F-

[ChezDaJez]

There are basically 7 real options for my next deep offensive after I have consolidated

1. India - probably a waste of time and resources
2. Sumatra - stops the oil at the source
3. Malaya - Still a reasonable target providing lots of good airbases and ports on PZB's LOC's
4. North Boneo/SEA - a little close to the PI for comfort.
5. PI - Extremely risky
6. Formosa or some other isolated island off the China coast - deep and very risky
7. Back to the Marianas - same risk as before but more weight in one assault force i.e. land 15 Divisons in one go take one base then move on.

Andy,

Have you considered a landing on the west coast of Java? I would recommend a 3 part landing: a landing at Tjilitap, one at Djokjakarta and one at Malang. I suggest these for the following reasons:

1. Tjilitap has a (2)(2) port/airfield. If PzB hasn't built them up yet, you can easily build them to level 5 port and airfield. Perfect for bombing Palembang or any of the bases on the west coast of Borneo. They can even reach Singapore but without escort. This base also constitutes a major threat to Batavia.

2. Djokjakarta cuts the road between Batavia and Soerabaja effectively isolating one from the other. It also has a potential level 5 airfield but has no port. It is a relatively safe landing though if you land at the other two sites as any troop movement towards here leaves his rear open and supply could easily be cut.

3. I like Malang due to its proximity to Soerabaja. It is well suited for attriting any fighters at Soerabaja. PzB would absolutely have to react to a landing there if he wishes to hold Soerabaja. Any force that he directs against Malang weakens his defense in Soerabaja and he won't be able to draw reinforcements from the nortth with the road cut. Malang also makes a nice 2E bomber base (capable of level 4). It also has no port so landings must be done from landing craft to get them all onto the beach before PzB can move any forces.

Taking Java would make a perfect stepping stone into Malaya or to the north coast of Borneo. Its perfectly suited for armor units and landings on Java would also prevent PzB from shipping LCUs elsewhere. Supporting the landigs shouldn't be too difficult as the threat from surface forces would be nearly non-existant and I'm not sure his air forces can resist you there and near Tarakan simultaneously. The biggest drawback is that most, if not all, air support would need to come from carriers until you capture an airfield and supply could become an issue in the south due to the slowness with which it unloads at non-ports.

You don't actually need to take the entire island. Batavia and Soerabaja could be simply isolated from the rest. That would force PzB to leave his defenses if he wanted to do anything about it. Holding a parachute regiment in reserve if available at Balikpapan (or any base in transport range) would also be valuable in grabbing an uprotected base or in isolating any forces he may attempt to move.

The approach to Java could be done from Perth/Derby unobserved. If your troops are already in Darwin, loading them and movinf down the coast of Australia until out of patrol range would be an option.

As you recall, I conducted a 3-pronged landing on Java in our game. I landed at Tjilitap, Malang and Kragen (east coast). If I hadn't screwed up my supply train I think Java would have fallen much quicker than it did.

Chez

[marovici]

ORIGINAL: Feinder

I'm sorry, somebody catch me up here. What's the issue here? I hate to see one of the long-running PBEMs go south.

-F-

PzB's kami high altitude attacks. I don't think Andy is talking about quitting, right?

[Andy Mac]

Oh god no I am pissed off and slightly insane after watching a John Wayne film I hadnt seen before but I aint quitting just expect the single most asterisk filled post in history when one of those Zekes hits a carrier no matter where you are in the world you will hear my howl of rage !!!

Re Java Chez I am not sure I am looking at it now as I type this.

My intel is limited but it looks to be well garrisoned.

I am really coming back to an attack up the corridor West of Borneo after I take Banja.

I will take a closer look at java via recon over the next few turns and make a final decision then.

I think provisoinally while I wait for my refitted carriers I will take Pomala, Maccasaer, Pinrang and other lvl 1 bases in the area to broaden my options for basing B25's in various lvl 4 AF's and help give me more depth these operations in total will take the balance of 6th Army (primarily 5th Amphib Corps and Army Reserve)

I am still Holding 1st Aus Army in reserve for Malaya so that would leave about 6 Divs of the three uncommitted Corps of 8th Army available for offensive operations.

Andy

[Andy Mac]

Java

[ChezDaJez]

Well, fully developed bases and 3 possible divisions would make it difficult. It could be done but would have to be a major operation.

Your operation up the west coast of Borneo will have the effect of cutting Java off from the Japanese war effort and should be a much easier road. It does mean operating in confined waters with the enemy left, right and in front (Charge of the Light Brigade, anyone?).

His forces in Java can supply themselves assuming that the resource centers are operational. So leaving them means a significant air threat to your supply lines along Borneo. Kamis are sure to operate from there and that's a lot of airfields to keep suppressed. You'll need to take care of that (which I'm sure you will) but otherwise you could leave Java alone once the airfields and air forces are suppressed. If he does have significant land forces there, bypassing them means they won't die off but they won't hurt you either.

Chez

[Andy Mac]

Aye more threat to my supply lines means more CVE's tied up.
 
I need to think this through

[jrlans]

What about bombing the reasource centers there. Once Java is isolated bombing resource centers slowly starves the troops. As we all know it is not worth it to rebuild resource centers for supply purposess.  That would force him to abadon (or kami) the AC there and try to evacuate the troops or let them starve.  Also with enough air support most of those bases could be closed with bombardments as well. Though with some risk to the surface ships from AC and mines. 

[Andy Mac]

Hmmm its possible I guess this is where my inexperience playing the Japanese comes back to bite me.
 
I dont have a feel for how much supply PZB could have stockpiled on Java.
 
I think I need to exploit the enforced admin pause and take out a few rear area bases.
 
Accordingly my primary targets are Noemfoor, Amboina and Makasser
 
5th Amphib Corps will provide the troops in 4 Battle Groups
 
1st BG will be used to reinforce Noemfoor with a fresh Division probably the 6th from Wasile.
 
I will then form 3 Division sized BG's
 
2nd BG will consist of 1 Bde each from the 1st Marine Div and 24th Inf Div plus an attached Armoured Regt and will assault Amboina.
 
3rd BG same composition will assault Makasser.
 
4th BG same composition will stay in reserve and go where its needed and if not needed will form the basis of FT raiding TF's to back up 11th Airborne
 
I prefer to fight Divisions as Divisions and not split into small columns in this way but needs must I need to spread the marine combat engineers about

[ny59giants]

Andy,
At this point in the game, the Allies have superior air power and naval power. All planning should encompass using this advantage to meet your objectives.
I see Java as being a place that I would avoid invading. He has an unknown amount of supply there, plus he could send LCU's from Sumatra over to Batavia. Any reinforcements of Borneo has to come by either sea or air transport - into your areas of advantage. I might take Bali and again a base off the coast of Palembang eventually. I would not want to get tied down to a protracted land combat until you get to Malaya.
Stay mobile and be like Ali - Move like a butterfly, sting like a bee!![:D]

[1275psi]

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

A couple of minor points with that 1275psi I have no issue with the Kamikaze threat or the fact that I may lose carriers it is as expected but I find this particular Tactic to be an exploit of the worst kind and it sticks in my craw because of that.

Ignore the fact that the only defence I will have is stronger screens for my TF's which I cannot do because I am short of CA's and CLs (I toook this game on knowing this so I cannot use this defence) and look at why he is relying on this 'tactic'.

PZB has not made a major attack on my fleet at any point after I have dispersed he has always attacked me when I have been concentrating on destroying his airforce.

Off the Marianas the whole point was to kill off his trained pilots (it worked to well and my 600 reserve Hellcats were insufficient) that was why I sent my carriers in en masse BEFORE my transports were in harms way with extra fighter loaded it was a CAP trap and IT WORKED he fell for it.

So he is now using this bullshit exploit because he wanted to hit my fleet when it was in trap mode.

As I have pointed out many times had he waited until I had my 1st wave unloading and my fleet had been forced to seperate to different hexes and tasks (GSupport requires carrier TF's to be in different hexes, Interdiction of reinforcements, guarding for KB and surface TF's, LR Capping the invasion hex and bombardment TF's etc etc) then he would had the fight he sought and my UBER CAP would not have been nearly as strong but he wasted 1,000's of trained pilots attacking an unshaken USN on the open Ocean sorry that is NOT my fault.

Answer me this how many times did Kamis penetrate a CAP when the USN was on its own and not multi tasking ?

How many carriers or ships were hit in open ocean by Kamis when not covering a landing force ?

I dont know these answers but I suspect none so PZB is using this 'tactic' because he got impatient and fell for a trap designed to cripple his AF.

Sorry I find this to be unconscionable.

Is UBER CAP to strong absoulutely is this 'tactic' the correct way to deal with it absolutely NOT.

In case there is any doubt over this I am FUMING over this issue and would have walked away from any other game over this issue but this game is to far down the line to do that but FYI it was a close run thing for me.

Oh and BTW lets not forget what is it 2 or 3 Carrier damaged/sank by Kamis already in this game ok they were CVE's but they are carriers


AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 07/23/44

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sub attack at 34,52

Japanese Ships
AK Teisen Maru, Shell hits 2, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage

Allied Ships
SS Queenfish

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Kweiyang , at 41,35

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zeke x 117
D4Y Judy x 27
B6N Jill x 69
B7A Grace x 35
Ki-43-Ib Oscar x 36
Ki-44-IIb Tojo x 35
Ki-84-Ia Frank x 72

No Japanese losses

Airbase hits 12
Airbase supply hits 2
Runway hits 87

Aircraft Attacking:
36 x Ki-84-Ia Frank bombing at 2000 feet
36 x Ki-84-Ia Frank bombing at 2000 feet
36 x Ki-43-Ib Oscar bombing at 2000 feet
35 x Ki-44-IIb Tojo bombing at 2000 feet
27 x A6M5 Zeke bombing at 2000 feet
27 x D4Y Judy bombing at 2000 feet
27 x A6M5 Zeke bombing at 2000 feet
27 x A6M5 Zeke bombing at 2000 feet
36 x A6M5 Zeke bombing at 2000 feet
23 x B6N Jill bombing at 10000 feet
27 x B6N Jill bombing at 10000 feet
15 x B7A Grace bombing at 10000 feet
14 x B6N Jill bombing at 10000 feet
18 x B7A Grace bombing at 1000 feet
3 x B6N Jill bombing at 10000 feet
2 x B7A Grace bombing at 10000 feet
2 x B6N Jill bombing at 10000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Lautem , at 33,78


Allied aircraft
P-40N Warhawk x 21


No Allied losses

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Hollandia , at 49,79

Japanese aircraft
no flights

Allied aircraft
Hurricane II x 7
Kittyhawk III x 6
B-24J Liberator x 26

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-45 KAIb Nick: 2 destroyed
G4M2 Betty: 1 destroyed


Airbase hits 1
Runway hits 37

Aircraft Attacking:
20 x B-24J Liberator bombing at 10000 feet
6 x B-24J Liberator bombing at 10000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Hollandia , at 49,79

Japanese aircraft
no flights

Allied aircraft
P-40N Warhawk x 11
PB4Y Liberator x 7

Japanese aircraft losses
P1Y Frances: 1 destroyed


Runway hits 12

Aircraft Attacking:
4 x PB4Y Liberator bombing at 10000 feet
3 x PB4Y Liberator bombing at 10000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Biak , at 46,77


Allied aircraft
Kittyhawk III x 3
P-40N Warhawk x 3
B-24J Liberator x 9


Allied aircraft losses
B-24J Liberator: 4 damaged

Japanese ground losses:
27 casualties reported

Airbase hits 2
Runway hits 5

Aircraft Attacking:
4 x B-24J Liberator bombing at 10000 feet
5 x B-24J Liberator bombing at 10000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Noemfoor , at 45,76


Allied aircraft
Kittyhawk III x 30
P-40N Warhawk x 19
B-25J Mitchell x 80
PB4Y Liberator x 8


No Allied losses

Airbase hits 5
Airbase supply hits 3
Runway hits 49

Aircraft Attacking:
12 x B-25J Mitchell bombing at 10000 feet
15 x B-25J Mitchell bombing at 10000 feet
3 x PB4Y Liberator bombing at 10000 feet
9 x B-25J Mitchell bombing at 10000 feet
9 x B-25J Mitchell bombing at 10000 feet
3 x PB4Y Liberator bombing at 10000 feet
2 x PB4Y Liberator bombing at 10000 feet
6 x B-25J Mitchell bombing at 10000 feet
6 x B-25J Mitchell bombing at 10000 feet
9 x B-25J Mitchell bombing at 10000 feet
7 x B-25J Mitchell bombing at 10000 feet
3 x B-25J Mitchell bombing at 10000 feet
4 x B-25J Mitchell bombing at 10000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Manokwari , at 44,75


Allied aircraft
B-24J Liberator x 6


No Allied losses

Runway hits 4

Aircraft Attacking:
6 x B-24J Liberator bombing at 10000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Wotje , at 82,79


Allied aircraft
P-40N Warhawk x 26
A-20G Havoc x 61
B-25J Mitchell x 34
B-24J Liberator x 38


No Allied losses

Japanese ground losses:
27 casualties reported

Airbase hits 5
Airbase supply hits 4
Runway hits 131

Aircraft Attacking:
18 x B-24J Liberator bombing at 15000 feet
26 x A-20G Havoc bombing at 15000 feet
9 x B-25J Mitchell bombing at 15000 feet
20 x A-20G Havoc bombing at 15000 feet
7 x B-24J Liberator bombing at 15000 feet
9 x B-25J Mitchell bombing at 15000 feet
7 x B-24J Liberator bombing at 15000 feet
9 x A-20G Havoc bombing at 15000 feet
3 x B-24J Liberator bombing at 15000 feet
3 x A-20G Havoc bombing at 15000 feet
12 x B-25J Mitchell bombing at 15000 feet
3 x A-20G Havoc bombing at 15000 feet
3 x B-24J Liberator bombing at 15000 feet
4 x B-25J Mitchell bombing at 15000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Wewak , at 52,81


Allied aircraft
Boomerang II x 5
Spitfire VIII x 6
A-20G Havoc x 11


No Allied losses

Airbase supply hits 1
Runway hits 14

Aircraft Attacking:
8 x A-20G Havoc bombing at 10000 feet
3 x A-20G Havoc bombing at 10000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Wewak , at 52,81


Allied aircraft
B-25J Mitchell x 32


No Allied losses

Runway hits 43

Aircraft Attacking:
20 x B-25J Mitchell bombing at 8000 feet
12 x B-25J Mitchell bombing at 8000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Hansa , at 53,83


Allied aircraft
B-25J Mitchell x 54


No Allied losses

Airbase supply hits 2
Runway hits 55

Aircraft Attacking:
54 x B-25J Mitchell bombing at 8000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Hansa , at 53,83


Allied aircraft
P-38J Lightning x 12
F-5C Lightning x 4
PB4Y Liberator x 23
B-24J Liberator x 56


No Allied losses

Japanese ground losses:
9 casualties reported

Airbase hits 9
Runway hits 52

Aircraft Attacking:
8 x B-24J Liberator bombing at 15000 feet
23 x B-24J Liberator bombing at 15000 feet
6 x PB4Y Liberator bombing at 15000 feet
9 x PB4Y Liberator bombing at 15000 feet
12 x B-24J Liberator bombing at 15000 feet
5 x B-24J Liberator bombing at 15000 feet
3 x PB4Y Liberator bombing at 15000 feet
3 x PB4Y Liberator bombing at 15000 feet
2 x PB4Y Liberator bombing at 15000 feet
2 x B-24J Liberator bombing at 15000 feet
3 x B-24J Liberator bombing at 15000 feet
3 x B-24J Liberator bombing at 15000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Wake Island , at 82,63

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zeke x 19

Allied aircraft
F-5C Lightning x 2
B-24J Liberator x 2

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M5 Zeke: 2 destroyed, 1 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
F-5C Lightning: 1 damaged
B-24J Liberator: 1 damaged

Runway hits 4

Aircraft Attacking:
2 x B-24J Liberator bombing at 8000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on 1st USMC Arm Amphib Battalion, at 32,62

Japanese aircraft
D4Y Judy x 22

No Japanese losses


Allied ground losses:
33 casualties reported
Vehicles lost 2

Aircraft Attacking:
22 x D4Y Judy bombing at 2000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on 1st USMC Arm Amphib Battalion, at 32,62

Japanese aircraft
Ki-49 Helen x 15

No Japanese losses


Allied ground losses:
67 casualties reported
Vehicles lost 2

Aircraft Attacking:
15 x Ki-49 Helen bombing at 5000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on 18th/A Division, at 52,81


Allied aircraft
F-5A Lightning x 1


No Allied losses

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Amboina , at 39,73


Allied aircraft
FM-2 Wildcat x 5


No Allied losses

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Biak , at 46,77


Allied aircraft
F4U-1D Corsair x 6


No Allied losses

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Noemfoor , at 45,76


Allied aircraft
Mosquito PR.IX x 1


No Allied losses

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Wotje , at 82,79


Allied aircraft
F4U-1D Corsair x 11
TBM Avenger x 17


No Allied losses

Runway hits 4

Aircraft Attacking:
17 x TBM Avenger bombing at 10000 feet

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Noemfoor

Allied Bombardment attack

Attacking force 23451 troops, 141 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 457

Defending force 22893 troops, 47 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 503


Japanese ground losses:
13 casualties reported


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at 32,62

Allied Shock attack

Attacking force 7645 troops, 0 guns, 396 vehicles, Assault Value = 231

Defending force 10379 troops, 6 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 209

Allied max assault: 380 - adjusted assault: 116

Japanese max defense: 140 - adjusted defense: 41

Allied assault odds: 2 to 1


Japanese ground losses:
292 casualties reported
Guns lost 1

Allied ground losses:
67 casualties reported
Vehicles lost 11


Defeated Japanese Units Retreating!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Makale

Allied Bombardment attack

Attacking force 1937 troops, 16 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 260

Defending force 7284 troops, 62 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 165

havent the time to read everything on the topic-but the big thing that sticks out is you ask is how many times did the kamis penetrate the CAp when the fleet was not multi tasking
You believe none
Sorry -it happened almost daily -especially off okiwana -and the CV raids on home islands I believe
I have just finished reading a crew mans experience on HMAS Shorpshire at Leyte and lingayen gulf -kamis and for that matter convential a/c attacks penetrated on a daily basis, again and again..despite CV CAP especially set to counter them.
how many destroyers were hit on radar and picket duties in the last year of the war -Im not sure of the actual numbers -but I believe it passed 60 odd.
Are you going to quit if PZB hits 60 of your DDs?[:D]

No offense, love reading the AAR -but I personally think trying to stick to a historical timetable in this game especially is really the root cause of so many of your frustrations.

[1275psi]

ok
now Ive read all the posts -I can see why you think its an exploit.
fair enough
But just how would any one propose a way for the japanese player to launch kamis with the knowledge that at least some would get through?

If im going to "spend" a daita in convential attack -I know at the moment I will get little or no return.
If I spend a daitai in Kami attack at normal altitude -no return iether (when in real life there was a very substantial "return")
If I spend a daitai in "bull crap" altitude attack at the moment -I get a small return , surely a more appealing "purchase" -and one at least allowing more historical results.

Id be rapt if some one can get around this impasse.
It might be an exploit -but by late 44, 45, if we say "im not playing against that", please tell me why a japanese player would even bother with airplanes in 44?

Its a tricky one aint it.
If you suffer less than 6 CV, 4 or 5 CVe, 60 DDs half a dozen CAs hit by kamis trying to penetrate the inner defences -then you will have got of very lightly, because thats what it cost in real life[X(]