Attack on Subchaser 39

[spence]

Interesting reading here about masthead attacks on Japanese shipping by 4e bombers (PB4Y-2s) IRL.

imps.mcmaster.ca/wackfamily-public/documents/uncle-toms-memoir/03-ship.doc

Also describes less than optimal operations using the BAT radar guided bomb against shipping.

[niceguy2005]

What is or is not a war crime will always be difficult to discern. Most of the distinctions boil down to, is the person still an immenent threat or not. It's a tough thing to call in the heat of action I would imagine.

It does remind me of a story about Collin Powel during the first Gulf War calling President Bush (senior) and recommending a cease fire because "it was crossing the line from war into murder." There were still enemies on the field but as to whether of not they were combatants would have been highly debatable.

[BLUESBOB]

War is war. I've never understood why men try to make rules to govern it. But I do think that whenever the enemy is cruel and inhumane, and your taking the moral high ground...one cannot behave just like the enemy.

[Kwik E Mart]

we won the war, thus this was not a war crime...[8|]

[Kwik E Mart]

this reminds me of a short video i was shown during flight school of A-6's taking out Kadfi's "navy"...straffing the crew of the disabled boats appeared to be ok ROE at that time...the air crews on the video certainly didn't seem to give it a second thought, listening to their radio chatter...

[panda124c]

ORIGINAL: Beren

It´s a CRIME WAR, in capitals

Come on now, isn't WAR CRIME redundent???

[Nicholas Bell]

we won the war, thus this was not a war crime...

About sums it up.

Always thought it ironic that the US entered WW1 because of Germany's unrestricted submarine warfare and here it's the first thing the US declares when WW2 starts...[8|]

It's not doing whatever it takes to win that bothers me personally, it's the hypocracy involved. "They started it" "They did it first" doesn't stand any test of morality.

[509th Bob]

Is machine-gunning shipwreck survivors a war crime?  Yes.  No question about it.  Would we treat it as such today?  It depends on the circumstances.  Historically, by the time this photo was taken, in all probability, the United States had obtained copies of the Bataan Death March films the Japanese were so kind to make.  The government was terrified of revealing the film to the public, fearing that it would demoralize them.  Ultimately, they showed it to a test audience, and discovered that it infuriated them.  It was thereafter shown to promote the war (i.e., propaganda).  Remember also, the footage of the Rape of Nanking was already old news then, also.  Plus, the SNEAK part of the attack on Pearl Harbor infuriated Americans.  Add in the racism, which was practiced far more virulently by the Japanese than the Americans at the time, and the whole damned thing was "no quarter given."  Thus, historically, no war crimes trials for U.S. pilots.  In today's politically hyper-correct world, there would be war crimes trials for U.S. pilots, but not for terrorists because they're the PC world "good guys." 

[mlees]

There was an incident where a US submarine machine gunned Japanese sailors floating in the water (after their ship had been sunk by that sub).

The brass knew about it, but made no comments on it. (The usual patrol medals were awarded, based on tonnage sunk...) As far as I know, this info was not communicated to the public.

In anti-nazi propoganda, much was made about the nazis doing just that (although it was the exception, not the rule, as in the US service).

I speculate that the public reaction (to reports of a US sub gunning Japanese sailors) would be mixed, but mostly "Serves them right!". I could be wrong, though...

[anarchyintheuk]

I don't see much hypocracy. Two different adminsitrations taking different courses of actions in different circumstances.

Why would the US voluntarily abide by pre-ww1 rules in ww2 when no one else was doing it? Morality often has little to do w/ common sense.

[whippleofd]

this reminds me of a short video i was shown during flight school of A-6's taking out Kadfi's "navy"...straffing the crew of the disabled boats appeared to be ok ROE at that time...the air crews on the video certainly didn't seem to give it a second thought, listening to their radio chatter...

Operation Prairie Fire:

USN - 4
Lybia - 0

Not a good couple of days to be in Kadfi's military.

Whipple

[Terminus]

Since when were A-6's capable of strafing anything?

[panda124c]

ORIGINAL: BLUESBOB

War is war. I've never understood why men try to make rules to govern it. But I do think that whenever the enemy is cruel and inhumane, and your taking the moral high ground...one cannot behave just like the enemy.

The reason is simple; war in itself is criminal, by defining rules to govern war it become legal thereby making war a civilized and glorious achievement.

The opinions expressed here are mine and do not necessarily reflect the rest of the world barbaric opinion. [:-][:D]

[panda124c]

I am supprised that no one has mentioned the Battle of the Bismark Sea. Where the surviving troops were strafed while in the water so that they would not get ashore.

[Monter_Trismegistos]

I am also surprised that nobody mentioned Malmedy in Ardennes where US surrendering soldiers where shooted by SS so that they would not take part in 1945 offensives.

[Kwik E Mart]

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Since when were A-6's capable of strafing anything?

apologies...meant a-7 corsair, which carry internally mounted 20mm cannon...lost too many brain cells lately...

[Mike Wood]

Hello...

Actually, it looks like they are toss bombing. Come in about 500 feet or and pull up just as the bomb is dropped. In game turns, come in at 1000 feet. Skip bombing is done at 100 feet or less and the bomb is used sort of like a torpedo. It skips along the water and hits the ship along the water line.

Bye...

Michael Wood

ORIGINAL: Nicholas Bell

...These boys were skip bombing. WitP manual says 100 feet altitude. Think the pilots are following the rules? [:)]

[Terminus]

ORIGINAL: Monter_Trismegistos

I am also surprised that nobody mentioned Malmedy in Ardennes where US surrendering soldiers where shooted by SS so that they would not take part in 1945 offensives.

Or how Canadian prisoners were murdered by soldiers of the 12th SS Panzer Division in Normandy, causing their comrades to later not bother with taking prisoners at all...

There were instances on both sides where prisoners were killed because there was no way to get them to the rear. You think that scene in Band of Brothers was imagined?

[Monter_Trismegistos]

No I am not saying that. In a bitt sarcastic way I wanted to show that "they can fight later" is not an excuse for shooting defenceless men. It is still war crime.

The sadest thing is that only one side of war was punished for their crimes.

[Terminus]

ORIGINAL: Kwik E Mart

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Since when were A-6's capable of strafing anything?

apologies...meant a-7 corsair, which carry internally mounted 20mm cannon...lost too many brain cells lately...

Know that feeling...[:D]