Wanted: Better tactical AI

[henius]

Hi guys,

I've been lurking around in here since I bought PC-OWS a couple of weeeks ago, and I have to tell you this:

Dudes, you're not getting the point!

Everybody talks about waypoints and using cover to move units, and that is irrelevant. What this game needs is a better tactical AI! Even the poll Erik have been running doesn't mention this possibillity, and it disturbs me quite a bit.

Let me explain: I, too, have migrated from CM, and I stopped playing CM because I more and more disliked the unrealistic micromanaging style that seems to be giving the best results in battles. But while playing CM I more and more asked myself: Is this _really_ the way a colonel acts when commanding his troops? Does he _really_ have to tell that tank to fire at the hostile tank in stead of hostile infantry? Does he _really_ have to decide exactly what route his unit takes to get to their destination? More and more I found myself saying "No way, boy, you're just shuffling chess pawns. This is not reality". I ended up finding that too much control was simply tedious, too much detail was simply unrealistic.

And being realistic, _that_ is what I want of a tactical wargame. And fun, of cause...

Along comes PC-OWS with an entirely new angle. Gone are the excessively detailed ballistics and stuff, in are a tested system. Gone are the "Only we know, and we are done when when we are ready" approach, in is a more "workshop - like" approach where the game is evolving even after it has gone gold. I really think it is a good idea to start with the basics and then gain consensus on how to evolve. I really do. It bring memories of Steel Panthers, doesn't it? And if it comes to choosing between tedious realism and gaming fun, Erik R told us they would choose the fun. That had to be my kind of game - keeping track of every bullet on the entire eastern front does _not_ bring a more realistic approach than "Third Reich", IMHO. And certainly not more fun. Even Panzer General gave somewhat realistic results.

I was kind of excited when I started my first game in the german campaign. The first battle I really messed things up, but managed to get a marginal victory. Not too bad. In the second I thought I had learned my lessons and started planning the battle like a real colonel. But when I must have been too sloppy in executing or clicked at the wrong spot, beacuse somehow my VETERAN reconnessance armored car ended up between two chunks of covering trees in the beginnng of an order phase. And it sat there for almost thirty seconds while the russkies I _knew_ had to be there (there was an objective nearby) fired two shots at the car barely missing it. During the reaction phase I frantically clicked "withdraw" just about anywhere on the map to get the damn car moving again. Backwards, forwards, whatever.. DO something. But of cause the armored car was hit in the beginning of the reaction phase by the third shot from the AP cannon. The fourth shot hit a truck carrying some panzergrenadiers which, by some strange chance involving an equally sloppy clicking from my side, ended up right next to the destroyed recon car... I just slammed alt- tab and tried for some minutes to calm down by playing Napoleon before returning to the game again. Can _anyone_ think of _anything_ this stupid? I remember attending a class about brain intellect, where the absolute basis package was described as that of a cockroach: When anything extraordinary happen, RUN, run like hell. Where doesn't matter, just run. And these veteran recon troops just sat still for thirty seconds right in the middle of an easily foreseen threat.

Well, I kind of pulled myself together and continued the game, the car engine could have been broken after all. And I was getting more the hang of it this time, slaughtering infantry and zooming across the map with my armored cars as recon troops. At some time I heard the "actung feintliches panzer" sound and realised that one of the cars had driven right by some T34's hiding in some valley in the middle of an otherwise flat area. One of the T34 had noticed this and was firing shot after shot into the edge of the valley, not able to get a clear shot. My car just sat there with the rear side to the T34 untill I moved it some metres forward so the tank couldn't see it. The rest of my forces was in disarray, as I still had plenty to infantry to kill elsewhere, but by now I was getting in a kind of RTS mode and just ignored the mighty threat until I was done with the infantry killing and then redirected all my tanks in a C - shape around the spot where the tanks had been seen. The "?" was gone by now but I wasn't easy to fool, and when _all_ my tanks was ready, I ordered them all forward! It went like a breeze, even as the T34´s wasn't easy to kill and the edge of the valley was attracting a lot of fire... I finally inched one of my "edge- pounders" a few inched forward so it could hit the last tank. But whatta ya know, that kind of things DO happen a lot in RTS games... Here again, can you think of a commander of four T34 tanks NOT doing SOMETHING when hearing the rumble of 12 tanks positioning themselves around his sweet little valley? Don't you think he would crawl up from his tank to the edge of the valley to take a peek? Would he just sit there wishing they would go away, please?

Continuing with my gaming experience, I then realised that I had to get the last red flag quickly, summoned ALL my units and told them to race for the flag at super- max speed, and just as I was approaching the flag with my units while ignoring an AP gun that got a couple of my armored cars, BANG! The battle stopped! Right there floating in mid air, me using every gamey tactics in the RTS book, just before I reached the gaming goal. There seemed to be a time limit I missed in the briefing (and I re-read it later -there was no limit mentioned). And tell me: How fun exactly is a limit on battle time?

Aaarh! I think I kind of got around the full circle with this one, memorable game. And it tells me that this game is neither bird nor fish. I think you designers should decide what you want with this game. Not that it doesn't have potential - a lot of the stuff in the game is OK. But if you keep adding details, you'll end up with a clone of CM. And belive me when I say that that base is covered... I'd rather that you use some of the computer cycles saved by using miniature rules in stead of ballistic equations for some BETTER tactical AI. That could really put you ahead and make this game a sleeper hit. If your unit behave somewhat more intelligently than CM, that would make a splash.


And in general I think you got the basics right, but need to improve. You should go for a better Tactical AI to get a better immersion of the gamer in the game. And of cause Erik's list is ALWAYS good. Here are my list of what could be improvements:

- A way to set up battle plans from the start that could last several turns but aborted if the player saw the plan fading. Long -term goals is all- important. "Move around this lump of trees and arrive at this point at 1300 hours. Expect hostile s from this area". Hint: Just like a colonel would say to his thinking subordinates.

- SOP for units which they are supposed to follow when engaging. And when idle or without orders.

- Role playing "personality" of the individual units - some are braver and better than others. Maybe pictures of the platoon commanders. Whatever.

- A method to link turns up to a film, like it was done in Myth. That way a battle can be shared with others.

- "Threat arcs" and "cover arcs" determining where to aim the big guns at and where to run to if nescessary. This needs to have a "memory" so that a unit doesn't forget where that big KV-1 was hiding.

- Some effect of the chain of command. Some ideas: Wouldn't it be cool if enemy units was visible and "?" according to what unit was selected, and according to that unit's field of view? Maybe the commander could reveal found positions of enemy units to other friendlies? What if the commander only could make xx number of orders each turn? What if _no_ orders could be given to units if the commander's tank was taken out? I think there are lots of posibillities to make the chain of command visible. As it is now the chain is non- existing.

So here is to an evolving engine, hoping you will take the right direction. But damn me if I ever play the second battle in the german campaign again!


Best of luck,
Henius

[Erik Rutins]

Henius,

ORIGINAL: henius
I've been lurking around in here since I bought PC-OWS a couple of weeeks ago, and I have to tell you this:
Dudes, you're not getting the point!
Everybody talks about waypoints and using cover to move units, and that is irrelevant. What this game needs is a better tactical AI! Even the poll Erik have been running doesn't mention this possibillity, and it disturbs me quite a bit.

Thanks for your detailed feedback. Sorry it's taken me a bit to reply to you. It's true that improved Tac AI is not on the poll, but that's largely because it's an assumed "background task". In other words, with each expansion, we'll put some time into making the AI a bit smarter, if only as a function of getting it to understand all the new features.

their destination? More and more I found myself saying "No way, boy, you're just shuffling chess pawns. This is not reality". I ended up finding that too much control was simply tedious, too much detail was simply unrealistic.
And being realistic, _that_ is what I want of a tactical wargame. And fun, of cause...

Ok, sort of the COTA of tactical games is what you're looking for, if I understand you right. I think PzC is straddling a line in between CM and your goal.

But when I must have been too sloppy in executing or clicked at the wrong spot, beacuse somehow my VETERAN reconnessance armored car ended up between two chunks of covering trees in the beginnng of an order phase. And it sat there for almost thirty seconds while the russkies I _knew_ had to be there (there was an objective nearby) fired two shots at the car barely missing it.

Note that this is a function of a design decision we made in the first release. We've since decided to change it. We were originally looking to give the player more control and figured that within the 40 second reaction time it would be fine to leave this up to the player, but I agree that having the AI react in this instance would be more fun. So, that's definitely in for the first expansion.

During the reaction phase I frantically clicked "withdraw" just about anywhere on the map to get the damn car moving again. Backwards, forwards, whatever.. DO something. But of cause the armored car was hit in the beginning of the reaction phase by the third shot from the AP cannon. The fourth shot hit a truck carrying some panzergrenadiers which, by some strange chance involving an equally sloppy clicking from my side, ended up right next to the destroyed recon car... I just slammed alt- tab and tried for some minutes to calm down by playing Napoleon before returning to the game again.

Yeah, a successful ambush has this effect on many a wargamer. [;)] I understand your point though.

And these veteran recon troops just sat still for thirty seconds right in the middle of an easily foreseen threat.

The question is did they see it and could they react in time? In the original system, the answer is no. Thirty seconds seems like an eternity to you, but it can pass quickly when confronted with a surprise situation in combat. However, in the updated system, the answer is that they'll have a chance.

At some time I heard the "actung feintliches panzer" sound and realised that one of the cars had driven right by some T34's hiding in some valley in the middle of an otherwise flat area.

Ah, yep - the Balka in the second campaign. This is there to ambush players as well.

but by now I was getting in a kind of RTS mode and just ignored the mighty threat until I was done with the infantry killing and then redirected all my tanks in a C - shape around the spot where the tanks had been seen. The "?" was gone by now but I wasn't easy to fool, and when _all_ my tanks was ready, I ordered them all forward! It went like a breeze, even as the T34´s wasn't easy to kill and the edge of the valley was attracting a lot of fire... I finally inched one of my "edge- pounders" a few inched forward so it could hit the last tank.

Those T-34s will normally move out if you threaten an objective. Sometimes, they'll move out anyway. In your case, they decided to stay put and paid for it. This was a bad decision in that case, but many players have had a different experience with those particular T-34s.

Continuing with my gaming experience, I then realised that I had to get the last red flag quickly, summoned ALL my units and told them to race for the flag at super- max speed, and just as I was approaching the flag with my units while ignoring an AP gun that got a couple of my armored cars, BANG! The battle stopped! Right there floating in mid air, me using every gamey tactics in the RTS book, just before I reached the gaming goal. There seemed to be a time limit I missed in the briefing (and I re-read it later -there was no limit mentioned). And tell me: How fun exactly is a limit on battle time?

There's no time limit, but after 15 turns, the defender earns bonus points. - that's mentioned in the manual What it sounds like happened is that by over-preparing for those T-34s, you let the Soviets sit on the rest of the objectives long enough to slow down the advance. This is a defender bonus we put in to reflect the fact that there was absolutely no time to spare in this advance. If the Soviets slow you down enough, they will earn points and it can lead to a defeat. By watching the VP bars, you can see if they're getting close to winning or not. Another thing that can sometimes happen is players can thing they own an objective free and clear, but they've missed a hidden infantry unit or two. They move their units off and the objective switches back to the other side, leading to an unexpected defeat. If you moved ALL your units, this may have happened to you as well.

We're planning on adding a post-battle map review so you can better see exactly what happened.

Aaarh! I think I kind of got around the full circle with this one, memorable game. And it tells me that this game is neither bird nor fish. I think you designers should decide what you want with this game. Not that it doesn't have potential - a lot of the stuff in the game is OK. But if you keep adding details, you'll end up with a clone of CM. And belive me when I say that that base is covered... I'd rather that you use some of the computer cycles saved by using miniature rules in stead of ballistic equations for some BETTER tactical AI. That could really put you ahead and make this game a sleeper hit. If your unit behave somewhat more intelligently than CM, that would make a splash.

We're not looking to clone CM, but we are aiming to stay realistic and fun. We are in agreement on continuing to improve the AI, but based on your comments I do think that if you play a bit more, you'll find that non-RTS tactics work best. The RTS tactics didn't get you a decisive victory, but playing historically generally does. In the initial campaign, there's also a fine balance between speed and caution that you have to find to really get the VP sweet spot.

- SOP for units which they are supposed to follow when engaging. And when idle or without orders.

This is already in there to a degree. By default, units without targeting orders will auto-target at the start of each phase, but they'll only fire if they have an "Average" shot or better. You can also now (as of v1.12) order them to Hold Fire entirely or only take Good shots or only when in Close Assault range.

- Role playing "personality" of the individual units - some are braver and better than others. Maybe pictures of the platoon commanders. Whatever.

Agreed, this would be nice additional flavor to have in there.

- A method to link turns up to a film, like it was done in Myth. That way a battle can be shared with others.

Would definitely like to do this in the future.

- "Threat arcs" and "cover arcs" determining where to aim the big guns at and where to run to if nescessary. This needs to have a "memory" so that a unit doesn't forget where that big KV-1 was hiding.

I think true arcs are probably more complex than we want to do. Right now, each unit has a defined LOS and fire arc based on how you face it. Using this knowledge together with the new Hold Fire orders should allow you to do just about everything you want.

- Some effect of the chain of command. Some ideas: Wouldn't it be cool if enemy units was visible and "?" according to what unit was selected, and according to that unit's field of view?

This would probably drive players crazy, but I think some kind of overlay or toggle to let them see that if they wanted to would be useful.

Maybe the commander could reveal found positions of enemy units to other friendlies? What if the commander only could make xx number of orders each turn? What if _no_ orders could be given to units if the commander's tank was taken out? I think there are lots of posibillities to make the chain of command visible. As it is now the chain is non- existing.

Yes, that was deliberately left for a later date, to have time to really look at a good implementation. Right now there are some command effects if sub-units get too far away from a platoon commander and losing a HQ unit can result in a morale test, but a true hierarchy was not a priority given the scale of the game.

So here is to an evolving engine, hoping you will take the right direction. But damn me if I ever play the second battle in the german campaign again!

Well, I hope you do! I'm able to regularly get a Decisive on that one with historical tactics. Anyway, thanks a lot for the feedback and please check back as time goes on.

Regards,

- Erik

[henius]

Eric,
 
- and I thank YOU for a very detailed answer. Sorry for writing that long, but that game made a big impact...
 
And I still think making orders too detailed is a wrong path to take. Recon units, for instance, should by themselves avoid firefights and stay in cover. If at all possible, of cause [;)]  - AI is not an easy thing to make. But I think you have all the prerequisites: A "simple" equation model (it is useable for mini's) and a working, bug - free 3D engine easily on par with CM.
 
But maybe I should give it another try - this time with a more realistic sense of what can be done. Perhaps even read the manual? [:)]
 
Regards,
Henius
 
P.S. At some time I have to try out COTA, but I fear it could be a bit dry. I really like these little tanks rolling around.