First Impressions and Observations

[JeF]

I've never tried the "waypoint" technique you described. Sounds interresting.
For unit chasing, I usually use a move order with a vee formation and high aggro : that way the forces keep their formation between waypoints. Otherwise, they move in columns to the defend point, with an avoidance path by default IIRC, where they finally deploy.

JeF.

[dinsdale]

I know it's a little late, with the patch imminent, but I wanted to illustrate a couple of the issues, particularly the AA problem.

Started Malta again, but modified the scenario to make German supply sources road ones, so Basics will arrive. Early on day 3, and the pattern has been that Allied units are driven back, with the exception of AA units.

Some have surrendered, taking entire battalions >24 hours to remove them.

A couple of examples:



Above is the current result of two seperate attacks. The first is a battalion attack which has scattered the British units, except for the AA battery. The second is a battalion under Regimental command with additional units which has now stopped to engage the AA, instead of continuing north. The red arrow is the path of retreat for other British units.

That would be fine, a unit slowing down the attack while others retreat, but here's the continuing result of an attack started 48 hours ago with a battalion and some independent units added to try and finish it off



As you can see, despite two days under fire and surrounded, the British unit doesn't appear to be even dented. Somehow, it's prescence appears to be disrupting supply; these are three messages relating to the units in the area, and a road to the base.



It's also the only allied unit I suspect which is directing artillery on a bunch of units resting just east of Luqa airfield. They don't appear to be in LOS of any other allied units.

Elsewhere, it's pretty much the same story. Some have surrendered, others have been fighting for days:



Above, the fortified version in the SE of the screen surrendered quickly, the other one has been holding out for >36 hours of this battalion's attention.



Above, this area contained about 20 allied units. They've all run, but the AA has been fighting for >12 hours, it has been flanking my attacks to the north and I presume if I advance on Valetta to the west it will do the same, and so ties up two battlalions which don't appear to be denting it.

The difference between AA and the rest of the allied units is stark. The others retreat, or take losses and surrender when overwhelmed by multiple battalions overruning them, the AA units simply bed down and become mini-forts wherever they remain after an assault.

Is there something I'm doing wrong, are there other techniques for dealing with these units?

[Jakerson]

I used Finnish encirclement and infiltration assault tactics. I approached those AA units at night deploying all around the enemy and then committed assaulted at first light of morning from all direction at same time. These way AA guns can't take advantage of its guns long range firepower while you approach it and cause huge losses to assaulter. You have to be innovative when fighting with smaller firepower and you don’t have everything tanks, planes, guns and ammo just like Finns had to when they met whole firepower of Soviet Union alone during winter war.

I think you have wasted your men and loosed ability to take those AA out in this game. Frontal assault is not good tactic when you don’t have lots of firepower like heavy artillery and tanks. Paratroopers are way too weakly armed for frontal assault.

I also softened AA at day by using air strikes, mortars and my weak artillery but I think you can take them out even without softening up.

At Raate Road battle Finns destroyed totally two Russian divisions total strenght of 25 000 men by using about 4-5 timer smaller and a lot weaker armed force than what Soviet had. Finns had about 6000 men and suffered 100 casulties while Russians suffered 17 500 casulties at Raate Road. This is something that no other army in the world has never done in modern warfare.

Generally if you find yourself locked in to fair fight you haven’t planned it right. When using superior tactics and strategy you are never locked in the fair fight you mostly locked most unfair fight witch could be called massacre.

[Arjuna]

dinsdale,
 
If you open up the scenario in the ScenMaker and double-click on the AA units, you will see that the scenario designer, Ray Wolfe, has set their stubbornness very high. That accounts for their reluctance to retreat. As to killing them off, well they do have 84 APerFP each and most German Geb and Fj battalions are unlikely to have 84 points amongst all their units. So if you work on the usual 3:1 rule, then you really need more to attack them than just one of these light inf type battalions. But as Jackerson says you need to maximise your chances by advancing under cover of darkness and softening them up.
 
I will ask Ray to review the stubbornness levels. But you have to understand he's an ex gunner and so he's a tad biased towards any gun unit. [;)]
 
TT3072 - Scenarios - Battle of the Maltese Cross - Ask Ray to review values for AA units

[dinsdale]

Cheers for the replies guys.

Jakerson

I'm not really taking high casualties from these encounters, so it's not so much damage being done as it is being soaked up. The second screenshot shows Zebbuj and an almost intact AA long after the main assault has moved off. The units attacking converged from 3 directions and have hardly been scratched, but somehow there are about 1000 men re-enacting the Stalingrad tractor factory in a tiny area of the village

Elsewhere, there are positions which can only be attacked from one direction. Again, it's not a question of taking casualties, it's that battalions blaze away at the defenders without anything at all happening.

While the Winter War is interesting, I'm not sure it's that relevant to the situation in this scenario. Cutting off Valetta on day 2, then mopping up sections of the island in detail, with vastly superior numbers is hardly a fair fight, but there are situations where one must assault regardless of casualties in order to seize areas at opportune times.

The rest of the allied army is gone, but there are several enclaves of solely AA units holding up the proceedings.

Arjuna

That accounts for their reluctance to retreat. As to killing them off, well they do have 84 APerFP each and most German Geb and Fj battalions are unlikely to have 84 points amongst all their units.

That has me puzzled, the AA units seem to be 4 guns, some MGs and 200 rifles. Is that really a force strong enough to be almost untouchable by a battalion? Not to mention air strikes and supporting artillery? What you're suggesting is a regimental sized assault each time one of these units survives an attack which has scattered regiments and moved on.

What's weird is that some of them have fallen exceedingly quickly. I'll have to look at the scenario file to see if there's a difference between units, because the way things seem to work, either they fall within an hour or two, or they last in perpetuity.

The stubborness, IMHO, works well. For the cost of one unit (in the first screenshot) the allies have successfully extracated ~8 units (according to intelligence reports) and slowed down an undersized regiment from completing their task. But my units may be stuck there for 2 days finishing it off. Now I know there are isolated examples of such occurrences, and I'm reminded of Panzer Battles where Von Mellinthin recounts what they thought was a regiment and turned out to be 200 Russians in a trench holding up an advance for almost a week, but such stories appear to be rare and striking. The way the scenario is set up, the Allies need no more than the AA units on the map, because everything else is possible to be swept aside, but these units just don't appear to want to die.

The unit in Zebbuj is almost intact, though appears not to have been supplied for a couple of days as it's down to 50 Anti Personnel and 0 AArmour (according to intelligence.) The combined weight of my units is 244/84, but neither side has done anything, except disrupt supply to each other for about a day.

I continued playing this current game, and isolated and trapped in the Calcara area (extreme NE) about 20 Allied units were either destroyed or surrendered, but one AA continues to fight on. It just seems so bizarre that I've been able to have a good deal of success against all but one type of unit.

I appreciate you taking a look at this.

[Arjuna]

Send me a saved game where you have an AA that can't be shifted and I'll step through and see if I can discern what it is.

[RayWolfe]

ORIGINAL: Arjuna
I will ask Ray to review the stubbornness levels. But you have to understand he's an ex gunner and so he's a tad biased towards any gun unit. [;)]

TT3072 - Scenarios - Battle of the Maltese Cross - Ask Ray to review values for AA units

As there may be a problem with these units, I must declare that I didn't design it, only modified the objective points after Dave corrupted the original. Had everything been fine with the scenario I would have been pleased to take the credit! [;)]
I will look at these units but I think Steve "Golf 33" Long" the real designer's OOBs/TO&Es are without parallel so I'm a bit reluctant to alter his work. Are others finding these units an ahistorical problem (as opposed to something stopping your total victory [:'(] )
Steve, any thoughts?
Ray

[Jakerson]

I scored a marginal victory in this scenario and very near decisive victory I don’t hassle. Only thing that eluded decisive victory was that I made some mistakes at first two days by frontal assaulting couple objectives when I could have spend some time to outflank during night and take them with more finer manoeuvre.

Nobody cannot say what is historical in Maltese battle as it is never happened historically. I think that conquering malta would have been too hard historically becouse of strong fortications and small space and thats why paratrooper assault never happened. Defenders could have been bombard supply planes with coastal guns and artillery relative easily cut off paratroopers from reinforcement and supplies.

I love this scenario because it is one of only ones where mindless all out berserk’s assault approach won’t work and there is time frame for finer manoeuvres. Another thing is that these lightly armed paratroopers are like Finnish troops from winter war that’s thing why I like playing them and I’m a Finn myself. Finns had no tanks or artillery just like these paratroopers don’t have tanks or artillery.

[HansBolter]

I'm curious which objectives you may have frontally assaulted. I had similar results the first time I played this scenario. I tried rushing Luqa Airfield as it is a second day objective and was resoundingly repulsed.

I am in the middle of my second go at this scenario now. I waited until the third day to assault Luqa after outflanking it on both east and west sides. I tool Takali on day two and expanded east to get Safi and Halfar all on the second day and then finally assaulted Luqa with the better part of three regiments from three sides. The allies had abandoned most of their western defense and stationed almost half their entire defense force at Luqa. I trapped them in a cauldron and destroyed almost all of them. The rest of the push into Valetta appears as though it will be a bit anticlimactic now.

I wonder though if I will be penalized victory poit wise by waiting until day three to secure the day two objective.

[sterckxe]

ORIGINAL: HansBolter
The allies had abandoned most of their western defense and stationed almost half their entire defense force at Luqa. I trapped them in a cauldron and destroyed almost all of them.

That's mighty fine maneuver warfare on your part. I've tried this a couple of times in the past and the result I get is that the Allied AI pulls these forces back before I can close the lid on that cauldron [:D]

hm, maybe some carefully timed nightime marches could be the key ...

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

[HansBolter]

I did say "most".

They got about half the force out before I closed the circle, but the ones who escaped were heavily attrited.

The net result was that my Destroy Enemy Forces objective went from 15% completed to 65% completed!

I should have gotten some screen shots as it was awesome to watch develop. I haven't been so pleased with the outcome of an operation in a long time. I did experience a few moments of pride in the accomplishment. [:D]

And yes, I used the night of the second day to bring up the mountain units that land late in the afternnon of day two and also to push the FJ battalions forward out of their daytime cover positions to be in position for the morning assault.

[Jakerson]

I shock assaulted against Luga from south in the way that one of my regiment never fully recovered from failed assault.

One of my reinforced battalions got beaten up while assaulting toward east to take those objectives and one reinforced battalion was beaten up by those static AA until I figured out how to deal with them.

I think most of objectives in this maltese scenario are completion scored only so Occupation time wont score any points it wont matter when do you conquer them as long as you have them at end of scenario.

[Golf33]

ORIGINAL: RayWolfe

ORIGINAL: Arjuna
I will ask Ray to review the stubbornness levels. But you have to understand he's an ex gunner and so he's a tad biased towards any gun unit. [;)]

TT3072 - Scenarios - Battle of the Maltese Cross - Ask Ray to review values for AA units

As there may be a problem with these units, I must declare that I didn't design it, only modified the objective points after Dave corrupted the original. Had everything been fine with the scenario I would have been pleased to take the credit! [;)]
I will look at these units but I think Steve "Golf 33" Long" the real designer's OOBs/TO&Es are without parallel so I'm a bit reluctant to alter his work. Are others finding these units an ahistorical problem (as opposed to something stopping your total victory [:'(] )
Steve, any thoughts?
Ray

Haha, thanks for that Ray! Here's one in return: why don't you grab one of these guys' save files and run it through the debug build (I don't have that one any more) so you can look at both sides and see if there is anything odd happening in terms of casualties, vulnerability to fire, morale and fatigue?

From memory I assigned very high Stubbornness to the Maltese AA on the basis of their absolutely outstanding performance during the heavy Axis air bombardment. I haven't had a close look at your version of this scenario as it post-dates my departure but on the face of it the reported behaviour could stand a bit of scrutiny.

Regards
Steve

[dinsdale]

ORIGINAL: Arjuna

Send me a saved game where you have an AA that can't be shifted and I'll step through and see if I can discern what it is.

I finished the game, the allies surrendered early on day 6, by then all of the AA units posted above had surrendered. It looked like they reach a fatigue level where they can't go on, as the reported numbers of men hadn't changed.

I will be playing it again soon, I'll make some saves of pre/post attack where these units hang on behind.

---------------

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

I'm curious which objectives you may have frontally assaulted. I had similar results the first time I played this scenario. I tried rushing Luqa Airfield as it is a second day objective and was resoundingly repulsed.

What did you use on Luqa? I sent an FJ regiment there on the night of day 1 and the battle was over very quickly. Prior to that, I had garrisoned the vilage just north of Qrendi with a battlaion who fired for almost the entire day at the units south of Luqa losing hardly a man. By the time the regimental attack got going, they pushed all the way to just south of the roads south of Valetta by morning.

The rest of the push into Valetta appears as though it will be a bit anticlimactic now.

You'll get a surprise in and around Valetta I played before, a more methodical advance, and found units stacked to the heavens in the Valetta peninsular, and the two smaller ones east and west of it.

I wonder though if I will be penalized victory poit wise by waiting until day three to secure the day two objective.

I think they're just possession objectives. Doesn't matter when you take them, you get points for holding them.

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ORIGINAL: Jakerson
I love this scenario because it is one of only ones where mindless all out berserk’s assault approach won’t work and there is time frame for finer manoeuvres.

I think it's the best one in the game. A lot of space and a great deal of decisions how you need to go about taking the island. There are endless options after you first secure Qrendi, and I think it's exceedingly replayable.

ORIGINAL: sterckxe
I've tried this a couple of times in the past and the result I get is that the Allied AI pulls these forces back before I can close the lid on that cauldron [:D]

hm, maybe some carefully timed nightime marches could be the key ...

If you're determined and don't let casualties worry you, it's possible to keep the allies out of the urban areas and seal them off very quickly. What I found worked was to feint with a few battalions to western side of the island. That prevents the west from collapsing, but also isn't enough for you to push them back, so they don't retreat.

Attack north quickly with >2 regiments, and deploy enough mgs/aa/at companies on the east flank to hold off any allied idea of movement/attack. By blocking the roadways, you prevent the Hal Far force retreating, and the eastern garrison stays put until it's too late.

Throw the first large formation of mountain troops to mop up the SE airfields, and then concentrate them and the next lot to push the allies back from a line running roughly from Zebbuj to Valetta. They don't have anywhere safe to retreat to, and if you move some of your small LlSt units behind them, you force a lot of surrenders on that North/South road on the western side of the island.

After a couple of days with relatively few units in the urban areas, Valetta still took about a day to fall, so I don't know if it would be possible to take if you let the allies stock it up with units.