re. reducing Heavy Industry. I think that there is scope for a massive review of the entire industrial model which will actually make the game more interesting for a Japanese player like myself. It needs a really far-reaching and complex rebalancing but that is the work for a large team of people and can't be expected from a small group no matter how dedicated And as you say, it seems that positions are firmly entrenched and it might end up with the modder being lynched or (even worse) producing a mod very few people will use.
re. reducing Heavy Industry. I think that there is scope for a massive review of the entire industrial model which will actually make the game more interesting for a Japanese player like myself. It needs a really far-reaching and complex rebalancing but that is the work for a large team of people and can't be expected from a small group no matter how dedicated And as you say, it seems that positions are firmly entrenched and it might end up with the modder being lynched or (even worse) producing a mod very few people will use.
I completely agree with you[;)]
If there ever is a reliable re-evaluation of Japanese industry...I'm gonna incorporate it (read- steal it[:D])
That being said - if you find that Japan is amassing a rediculous number of planes (even by WitP standards) because the model does not kill wholesale anymore - let me know,I may have to do something whether it's universally popular or not.
Thanks very much for doing this AAR. I am very interested in this mod so will enjoy watching. I am particularly keen to see how China plays out. The AI is not very aggressive in China, so I would imagine that as long as you take your time the extra troops will just mean more loss points. Has the China supply been increased to cope with the extra forces? The stock game did not have enough even for the few troops available.
Hi, yes indeed China supply has been increased.The new supply model for China was to retain all of the HI and Res from stock- AND to include all the daily supply from the CHS mod.
I will post a monthly supply break down here - today.
Also, as I pointed out to mefi before he began this game, the static Chinese troops work perfectly in PBEM or AI is Japan- but when AI is Allied - the AI uses Chinese troops as it see's fit...so China under Allied AI will be a tougher proposition.
B
EDIT: Supply Breakdown -
Original Version -
Source
Daily Supply 1200 plus 50 from Urumchi
Burma Road 500
Resources 2220
Heavy Industry 1005
Daily Total 4975
Monthly Total 149250
Supply points used per month* 68804 (theoretical full strength - not counting construction and combat)
Remainder per month 80446
B Mod Version -
Source
Daily Supply 3814 plus 50 from Urumchi
Burma Road (not counted)
Resources 2220
Heavy Industry 1005
Daily Total 7039
Monthly Total 211170
Supply points used per month* 130,559 (theoretical full strength - not counting construction and combat)
Remainder per month 80611 (add 15,000 if the Burma Road is open)
I tend to agree with you about insufficient supply, it may have to be raised further.
I think what is called for is a supply increase to at least keep the same ratio of uncommitted supply /troops as the stock model had (which really was inadequate to begin with).
Revised:
Combined Daily Total=8501
Combined Monthly Total (less Burma Road)= 255,030
Supply points used per month 130,559 (theoretical full strength
- not counting construction and combat)
Stock version:
Combined Daily Total=4475
Combined Old Monthly Total (less Burma Road)= 134,250
Supply points used per month 68804 (theoretical full strength
- not counting construction and combat)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
(2) Air combat has been revised with particular focus on the aircraft of
1943 - 1945. Maneuverability changes have been based on comparative wing
loading at full load (not max load). Also, durability of most Allied
fighters has been raised slightly. Durability has been based on the
Dry Weight of the aircraft.
The reusluts of this are that Japanese planes are more agile than their
Allied counterparts, while Allied Fighters are faster and tougher (higher
durability). These changes have helped tone down the typical late war
lopsided air combat results.
(3) F6F-3 Hellcat and F6F-5 Hellcat have been added. F6F-3 Hellcat will
arrive in Feb 43 (production began in Oct 42, VF9 became the first F6F
equipped squadron in Jan 43). Production will switch to the F6F-5 in Apr 44.
(Note: as no graphics are required for this mod, both models share the
same stock graphic. Anyone who wishes may easily incorporate separate
graphics by supplying the art themselves, and then pointing either Hellcat at
the new graphic slot, using the editor)
(4) B-17, P-38, and F6F are all now "On Map Production" and each aircraft
will auto-upgrade to the newer model at an increased production rate. Obsolete
models will not stay in production through out the war.
(5) Numerous errors (mostly in unit position) have been caught and fixed
from the previous release.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Version 1.1
Design Notes on the B Mod; alternate scenarios for stock scenarios #15 and
#16.
The purpose of this mod was to give Non-CHS & RHS players an alternative to
stock scenarios 15 and 16 that also do not require any graphics set changes.
The focus is on adding more (hopefully) historical realism, with emphasis
on the following aspects:
(1) Naval Warships –
All warships have had their armor ratings verified and sometimes
changed to what current publications verify (Conway's, etc.). Also, all
ships from DE's to CV's have had their Durability Ratings standardized.
The method I used was to grant 1 Dur for each 200 tons Standard Displacement
(which is the starting point for stock WitP).
[Note: only Standard Displacement was used, as extra tonnage due to a
full fuel load, stores, and added deck houses, adds no structural strength.
Also, the original standard of a sliding scale of durability between ship
sizes has been maintained by giving all DD's and DE's an additional
point, and all vessels over 20,000 tons no real change. No auxiliaries, AK's,
AP's, TK's, or Patrol Craft have had stock durability touched.]
All AK's, AP's, and TK's have had their capacity reduced by approximately
1/3 (as has been done in several other mods) to help slow down the pace
of operations. However, I have rounded the numbers for ease of calculations
by players.
(2) Air Combat –
Air combat in WitP has long been known to be too generally bloody to be
realistic. I have tackled this in the following manner: All Aircraft
guns have had their Accuracy Ratings re-valued. The original method in
stock WitP was to rate accuracy as the square root of the Rate of Fire of
a weapon, divided by 100. The method I have used was to multiply the
square root of ROF with the square root of Muzzle Velocity, and then divide
by 100. This yields a number around half of what the stock game method
generates, it is also unbiased, and reflects the minute differences in the
weapons themselves. (allowance has been made for all Japanese Fighters that
are armed only with two nose mounted machine guns - such as the Oscar and
the Claude. These planes still have double the accuracy of all other aircraft
weapons - so as to keep them useful and competitive).
The net result of these changes is to significantly lower air combat
losses to more realistic levels, without having a ripple affect on other
aspects of combat involving aircraft and land units or ships.
(3) China –
It has long been recognized that the Chinese Army ‘as represented in
WitP’ is less than half of what China possessed. As China was originally
included in WitP to be an area for ‘on map’ training of the Japanese Air
Forces, the actual size of the Chinese forces was not considered to
be a problem. However, since a decisive land war in Asia is a feature most
players wish to have, a more reflective Chinese OOB was necessary.
Through research I have created a much more representative Chinese OOB (which
essentially doubles the size of the KMT Chinese Army). Also added are
semi-independent CCP Guerilla forces, and Chinese Labor Construction units
(16 to 20 units - depending on the map version, and all of which have no
combat strength), as well as Artillery units, as well as more supply
(CHS Daily supply and stock HI and Res). However, these more numerous
Chinese Army units are much reduced in all heavy weapons - as they were
historically.
The main units in the Chinese Army are now divided into the following:
1) Regional Army Corps and Divisions (based on the standard 4000 - 5000 man
Division, these are the various Warlord's troops and the bulk of the army).
2) Central Army Corps and Divisions (based on information stating that the
Central Army used an 8000 man Division - these are Chiang's politically reliable
KMT troops).
3) Provisional Corps and Divisions.
4) CCP Corps, Divisions, and Guerilla Brigades (these last named CCP Guerilla
Brigades are only the size of raider battalions, meant for harassment only).
The stock game Chinese OOB is:
69 Chinese Inf Corps
4 Chinese Cav Corps
1 Chinese Tank Rgt
18 Chinese Inf DIVs
-------------------
Equivalent to 164 Chinese Divisions
My revised Chinese OOB is:
80 Regional and Provisional Army Inf Corps
24 Regional and Provisional Army Inf DIVs
35 Central Army Inf Corps
10 Central Army Inf DIVs
6 CCP Inf Corps
4 Regional Army Cav Corps
3 Central Army Cav Corps
1 Central Army Tank Rgt
16 Central Army Arty Rgt
16 CCP Guerilla Bde
--------------------
Equivalent to 290 Chinese Divisions
China created some 550 divisions during the long war with Japan, but never
had that many divisions in the field at one time. Since no definitive and
exactly detailed Chinese OOB is readily available in English, I felt Going
for approximately half that number is appropriate.
Not included in the revised Chinese OOB are the approximately 2 million
Chinese troops in Japanese service (mainly in Manchuko). However, since
these troops were not used in Field Armies, nor were they well armed or
trusted by the Japanese, hey remain as invisible police units - as are the
extra 1.5 million British Indian troops in India.
This vastly increased China has been counter balanced by the fact that
most of it is static and may not move. Only 20 Chinese Divisions and 30
Chinese Corps start the game mobile. The rest are tied down in static
positions that are immobile – Unless attacked and forced to retreat by
the Japanese. Thus, the Japanese player may ignore the Chinese juggernaut –
so long as he does not activate them himself by attacking them. The idea is
to recreate the quagmire that really existed for Japan in China.
Also Chinese territory has been brought in line with CHS as to the 1941
start lines.
(4) The USSR –
Hand in hand with China, the USSR in stock WitP no longer gets
reinforcements if attacked, nor does it stage units for the Aug 1945 attack.
So - I have added a few reinforcements for the second half of 1943 and I
restored the majority of the large corps that took part in the Manchuria
campaign of 1945 – all of which arrive in June 1945 as in the Manchuria scenario.
I have also made the following changes for Historical Accuracy or Game Play:
All BB main guns have had their Rate-Of-Fire slightly increased (in the Data
Base accuracy rating = ROF for naval guns). The stock ROF is from 12 to 20,
this has been raised to 29. This will increase their participation in surface
actions, but still not have as high a ROF as 8* guns.
500 lb and 250kg bombs, devices 203 and 208 respectively - have both have been
slightly enhanced. PBEM experience has amply demonstrated that both devices are
a bit weak in effect on warships (actually my Japanese opponent first suggested
that the 500lbr was just too weak after his CA Myoko was hit a verified 25 times
in one attack by carrier based SBD's using 500 lb'rs and suffered trifling damage
- not much more system damage than is usual from several weeks peaceful steaming).
The solution I used was to raise the pen value of the 500 lbr from 45 to 51,
and to balance this by raising the effect of the 250 kg from 370 to 400. Now both
devices are a bit more to be feared by the enemy - but still in proper
relationship to each other.
Political Points for both sides have been increased from 50 to 100
points daily, to give more freedom of action for each player. (This can
always be easily re-set in the Scenario Editor).
The B-17 monthly replacement rate has been drastically cut from 75 to 20.
(All groups still come in at ½ strength).
F4U-1 Corsairs are No-Longer Carrier Capable.
F6F Hellcat - The first series production Hellcats at Grumman were completed
in Oct 1942, with production continuing throughout the war. The first
Carrier air group operational with Hellcats was the USS Essex in March 1943.
Therefore, Hellcat avaiability has been moved up to March 1943.
Fighter aircraft have been a bit re-evaluated. I have gone in favor of weighting
maneuverability (that slippery mystical rating) based more on wing loading -
resulting in NO Allied fighter having a maneuverability rating over 34, while
the KI-43I and II have had their maneuverability increased to 37 and 36 respectively.
Allied fighters greatest strengths are more of speed, armament, and durability.
The KI-43III has been added for 1944 as a replacement for the KI 43II.
The KI-61 Tony now comes in two variants, one in 1942 (armed with 4x.50 mg's) and
the other in 1944 (with 2x .50s and 2x 20mm's).
F4F4 Wildcat production will not begin until March 1942.
The P-26, P-35, P-36,and P-40C (no longer P-40B) are all effectively Out Of
Production at start.
P-40E-1-CU is the main American P-40 variant, and production has
increased to 60 units per month.
The AVG have their own unique aircraft (which they did) - the Curtis H81-2A.
This aircraft has a history of it's own, but in game terms - it has a bit higher
speed and climb than the standard P-40, and is available in limited numbers only
to the AVG (it's replacement aircraft is the standard P-40E).
There are Two P-38F units at start in Los Angeles, these should be left
on the USA West Coast until Oct 1942.
The P-400 has been done away with (as only one unit I found is assigned the
P-400, that unit has been re-equipped with the virtually identical P-39D).
The slot freed up (with the altitude penalty) has been used for a unique P-40E
in the game – this aircraft is used ONLY by USAAFFE units at start, and has
no replacements. The intent is to simulate the lack of Oxygen available to
fighter squadrons in the Philippines, and to keep these units from getting
replacement aircraft – since none were ever shipped to the Philippines
after the war started.
British Royal Navy J-class Destroyers:
Two Missing 0.5" quad AA MG mounts have been added to the J class DDs (RS & LS).
Also, because of the never ending demand for British Destroyer withdrawals for
the entire war - the following four J class DDs will arrive in early 1942
with British CVs: Javelin, Jervis, Kelvin, and Kimberley.
A U.S. Naval Infantry battalion has been added as a reinforcement to
Bataan in early 1942 to recreate the unit that existed and was created from
US Navy personnel on Bataan – and which participated in the 'battle of the
points and pockets' during the siege of Bataan.
A Marine Defense Bn detachment and a small USN Base Force have been added
to Guam at scen start (as historically they were there).
U.S.M.C. Divisions have had the total number of Infantry Squads brought
up to 364 Div /121 Rgt., just as a U.S. Army Div does. This has brought the
strength of the division back up to what it should be (19,000 men without
combat attachments) and accurately reflects the 25% greater manpower in the
organic Rifle Companies of a Marine Div (compared to a U.S. Army Division).
Bombay India (in the Stock Map scenarios) or Aden (in the Andrew Brown Extended
Map Scenarios) - has been given the option to expand its ship repair yard to
a maximum level of 100, this is the only Allied yard in the game that may
expand. The reason for this is that British naval units in India do not
have the option in WitP to sail back to the US East coast or Britain for
repairs, and must instead sail to the US West coast instead - this is
actually farther (and more dangerous) than returning to the Atlantic. Also,
Bombay had major ship repair facilities, greater than reflected in the stock game.
My Original idea was to incorporate the Nik Mod for aircraft changes,
but after securing Nikademus’s permission to do so, it became apparent that
it would be impractical to implement along side the other changes I was
making, because of the ripple effect on so many other systems that I didn't want
to touch. So I proceeded with a combination of some of his ideas and my own methods,
as well as borrowing from CHS and Andrew Brown.
The Stock Map Scenarios are meant for players who use stock map, or Subchaser's
map - that is - players who have not wished to change to CHS map (AB) and graphic set.
The Andrew Brown Extended Map Scenarios are for those who have already installed
this map package - but it is still intended for stock graphic set (Map Mod Option #3).
Personally, I think the Andrew Brown Extended Map Scenarios are the best, not only
for the map - but they also take advantage of Andrew's great work on his scenarios
#125 and #126 which are rich in detail for the South Pacific, New Guinea, DEI,
Australia New Zealand, CBI, and Canada areas.
I have deliberately NOT gone with an exclusive graphic set of aircraft for this
mod (though one has been made), so as not to require any player change anything
in their stock game.
Well over 200 hours of play testing have gone into this effort....
However - errors are always possible - so any and all feedback from anyone who
tries any scenario will be welcome.
Playtesters - Kadrin, BluesBob, and Big B
A special thanks to Andrew Brown for his assistance in the conversion work he did
so graciously, to Treespider for his advice on China, and to Kadrin for his time
devoted to playtesting and scenario detail and design work.
I like the changes you have made to the durability factor of the aircraft and especially like the inclusion of the F6F-3 in early '43. I've gone through approximately 10 turns this evening and everything looks good.
TOMLABEL
Art by the Rogue-USMC
WITP Admiral's Edition: Ship & Sub Art/Base Unit Art/Map Icon Art
"If destruction be our lot - it will come from within"...Abraham Lincoln
Big B...From your original post, I very much like your handling of the following:
The inclusion of more Brit DD's(for the reason stated).
The "special P40" in the Phillipines to prevent "magic re-equipping".
Static Chinese units to simulate the problem of removing their contol from local warlords,etc.
Ability to "grow" the Aden repair facility.
Ship durability based on actual weight(unloaded) to give a uniform means of calculation across the board without using "loaded figures"(which could have given "Liberty ships" an advantage ,LOL).
Like the Japanese fighters retaining their high maneuverability,(the one advantage they did enjoy)..
Big B...From your original post, I very much like your handling of the following:
The inclusion of more Brit DD's(for the reason stated).
The "special P40" in the Phillipines to prevent "magic re-equipping".
Static Chinese units to simulate the problem of removing their contol from local warlords,etc.
Ability to "grow" the Aden repair facility.
Ship durability based on actual weight(unloaded) to give a uniform means of calculation across the board without using "loaded figures"(which could have given "Liberty ships" an advantage ,LOL).
Like the Japanese fighters retaining their high maneuverability,(the one advantage they did enjoy)..
Thanks m10bob.
Since Herrbear asked me to explain the method I used to rate maneuverability, I thought I would post it for everyone.
ORIGINAL: Herrbear
Would you share your formula used to create the Maneuver figure. Thanks
Hello Herrbear,
Sure, here's what I did.
As you know I decided to base maneuverability on the relative difference between aircraft in wing loading - at loaded weight - (plus a little Kentucky Windage for Horse Power, etc)
After looking at a lot of real data, I decided to take the two most important aircraft of the first year (Zero and Wildcat) and use them as a baseline.
Taking the A6M3 with a stock mvr rating of 36 (wing loading at loaded weight = 24 lbs/sq ft), and an F4F-3 with a stock mvr rating of 33 (wing loading at loaded weight = 28.5 lbs/sq ft) - and using these as starting points, I looked up the wing loading (under loaded weight conditions) for the rest of the important fighters.
Where ever an aircraft's wing loading numbers are - on a scale in relation to the two above aircraft, I rated that aircraft's respective maneuverability. For example, a P-40E has a loaded weight wing loading of 31 lbs/sq ft, so it's mvr rating is 32 (just under the F4F-3); and the F4U-1D Corsair has a wing loading of 33 lbs/sq ft - so it was dropped to 32 mvr - however due to it's high HP I put it up to 33 mvr,....etc.
After readjusting mvr ratings, I had to run air combat tests to see what results I was going to get, to make sure things weren't coming up weird. To my delight it greatly added to improving air combat results by making them much more realistic.
For example, the old joke of "X-Wings upgrade to Corsairs" on account of the massacre kill rates (for F4U-1 vs A6M5, I was seeing pretty consistent 30:2 to 20:1 kill rates when testing stock game aircraft) - has fallen dramatically to the realm of 2:1 or so, give or take a bit.
(Note: those reduced kill rates were based on ALL pilots being 65 experience, and All other conditions being Equal.... this is not likely to be the case in the game where we try hard NOT to fight under equal conditions.)
But anyway, that's what I did, and how I did it. I hope that answers your question...and if not let me know - I don't mind rambling on!
I like the changes you have made to the durability factor of the aircraft and especially like the inclusion of the F6F-3 in early '43. I've gone through approximately 10 turns this evening and everything looks good.
TOMLABEL
I'm glad to see you like it Tom, I plan on finishing up your project this Labor Day Weekend[;)], and starting a new team game too - I'll start an AAR when we do so folks can see how it plays out.
B
EDIT: Remember folks, the 1.2 update has been sent to Andrew and Spooky, but they aren't uploaded yet...I'll post when they are up.
By The Way - to anyone who looks at this mod: WitP is a MASSIVE GAME. Errors in the Data Base are an ever-present probability. If ANYONE finds FUBARs please let me know and I will correct them post haste. Thanks
When planes upgrade, do you know how they convert? Is it 1-1? For example, if a factory is producing 50 A6M2 and converts to the A6M3, will it now produce 50 also?
When planes upgrade, do you know how they convert? Is it 1-1? For example, if a factory is producing 50 A6M2 and converts to the A6M3, will it now produce 50 also?
HiHerrbear,
No they do not necessarily convert 1 for 1. It is dependant on how much production is slated in total.
For example; Say we are producing 100 P-38F's per month. The upgrade of P-38F is to P-38G's at 25 per month. So this means that when P-38G production begins, it will be 100(P38F's) + 25(P38-G's), so Total production will switch to- 0x P-38F(production stopped) and 125 P-38G (combined new total).
I just got an email from Andrew Brown, the updated B Mod version 1.2 is uploaded at his scenarios website, and is available for downloading (no word from Spooky yet)
And as you say, it seems that positions are firmly entrenched and it might end up with the modder being lynched or (even worse) producing a mod very few people will use.
