Anime-style mecha?

[ShadowB]

Hey guys,

I'm new to ToS:WS, and I was wondering if there were any mods that added anime-style mecha chassis types to the game. The default ones are all western mechs, and I think it'd be much better if I could choose among some eastern mecha too.

Please don't hit me for asking this.

[Aensland]

Aside from making new mechs with names lifted from wherever, I have no idea. I'm not sure how to mod the game... since there's a bunch of stuff I'd like to add as well.

[ShadowB]

I've been checking around the game folders and found out that it IS possible to modify (perhaps add) graphics. They're stored in quite accessible formats, such as .tga. Mech chassis are stored in the images folder, and are named tos01, tos02, tos3, etc.

I got some sort of mecha rush recently, after watching Full Metal Panic! so I started looking for reasonably deep mech games. ToS:WS was the closest thing I found, the only disadvantage (probably many will disagree) being the exclusive use of blocky and generally uncool western mechs. [:'(]



Aren't they goddamn gorgeous? [:D]

[Thorgrim]

Yep, it's possible to mod the titan graphs, plus the terrain gradients and the special terrain features (buildings, etc). If you have the skills and the patience that is [;)]
Eastern mechs have the disadvantage of being a bit on the unrealistic side [:D]

[ShadowB]

Yes, I know it's possible, but I'm asking if there are any of the aforementioned mods around since I don't have the skills involved in the creation of one.

As for realism, that's highly debatable. Eastern mechs tend to be more agile (and cooler looking, but that's another issue), which is a great advantage. Western mechs tend to be really sluggish, which basically beats the purpose of having such vehicles altogether. They might look more real simply because of the higher similarity with modern vehicles, but that has nothing to do with realism. Besides, it's odd that by 3000 AD (around Mechwarrior's time) all we have are those walking metal boxes, and nobody has thought about agility and delving into alternate materials and mechanisms to achieve that goal.

As silly as it may sound, if we ever develop mechs/mecha in real life, they'll be more like eastern than western fiction ones, simply because the latter aren't practical.

[Aensland]

Interesting points. I'm more interested in equipment variation though, which is my biggest beef - I mean, I find it strange only 5, 6 companies are making Titan components (Krios, etc), if you read the item names
 
I was thinking of running extras like say cheaper and lighter versions of weapons, but at the cost of using more PUs and causing more firing heat. Or heavier scanners but with longer range. Or generic booster-style packs that increase anything from extra cooling to extra jump time (nothing crazy, just mods like maybe +25%).
 
So for example you'd have the standard Large Laser, then one that fires one hex further but has worse targeting, or one that's cheaper but heavier (probably not gonna be popular considering money really isn't an object), or one that is lighter but fires hotter and consumes more PUs.
 
Thing is, the chasis limits are pretty tight - customising a 40t Recon takes some skill to not make it crumble within a round of being fired on - I thought of possibly upping the limits a bit. Graphics-wise, well, I'm no artist but as you point out, they're already there in the folder exposed for sprucing up.

[Thorgrim]

ORIGINAL: ShadowB

Yes, I know it's possible, but I'm asking if there are any of the aforementioned mods around since I don't have the skills involved in the creation of one.

Eric (Petersen, aka Rosary, VB's gfx man) released some terrain mods a long time ago (Mars, Moon, Gaia, ...), he made them available in his homepage at the time, but I don't think it exists anymore. I still have them buried deep in my HD IIRC. As for the titans, I don't know of any mod ever made.

As for realism, that's highly debatable. Eastern mechs tend to be more agile (and cooler looking, but that's another issue), which is a great advantage.

So, your point is westerners are more stupid than easterners, if they make crappier mechs? "Eastern" mechs are made to be "cool" and agile, they have to if you want animé to have any appeal at all - for those who like that kind of stuff of course. "Western" mechs don't live off of that, so they can be more oriented towards realism.
Now, guess why LAMs all but disappeared in BattleTech.

Western mechs tend to be really sluggish, which basically beats the purpose of having such vehicles altogether.

Why? They beat the crap out of any land-based, armored vehicle. And I don't understand where the sluggish comment comes from. You mean the ability of a hundred tons of metal made primarily for ground movement have the movement profile of a feline?
Anyways, I don't see what's so uncool in an iconic lump of metal such as the world-wide famous Timber Wolf.

They might look more real simply because of the higher similarity with modern vehicles, but that has nothing to do with realism.

I see. So it has to do with...?
And I guess WarShips in the future will have nothing to do with what Sci-Fi gives us today, they'll be ethereal craft guided by telepathy, so they'll be much cooler and more agile than what we're used to seeing.

Besides, it's odd that by 3000 AD (around Mechwarrior's time) all we have are those walking metal boxes, and nobody has thought about agility and delving into alternate materials and mechanisms to achieve that goal.

Do you know the BattleTech timeline, from the XX century up to the time when the Succession Wars beat humanity back several generations in terms of technology?

As silly as it may sound, if we ever develop mechs/mecha in real life, they'll be more like eastern than western fiction ones, simply because the latter aren't practical.

As you said, that's highly debatable. Practical or not (unpracticability never stopped the advance of science), logic dictates that the earlier models will look more like what we have today. How long it will take for those models to evolve to something a lot more "agile", if at all, that's not something I'd go into.

[Thorgrim]

ORIGINAL: Aensland

Interesting points. I'm more interested in equipment variation though, which is my biggest beef - I mean, I find it strange only 5, 6 companies are making Titan components (Krios, etc), if you read the item names

And then there's weapons companies, and armor companies, and possible sub-contractors. [;)]

I was thinking of running extras like say cheaper and lighter versions of weapons, but at the cost of using more PUs and causing more firing heat. Or heavier scanners but with longer range. Or generic booster-style packs that increase anything from extra cooling to extra jump time (nothing crazy, just mods like maybe +25%).

Some of these (and many more ideas) were discussed here back in the days of release. Of course, balancing and testing these things is not as easy as cranking out the ideas...
It could also turn the game's weapon inventory into a chaos similar to BattleTech's [:D]

[ShadowB]

Thorgrim, you seem to have taken offense from what I said. I was just stating my opinion, and never aimed to turn this thread into a western mech vs. eastern mecha debate. I never said we westerners are more stupid, nor that everything has to be "agile" and "cool" (the latter being just an opinion). After all, if mechs exist just because they can beat the crap out of anything and that's it, why go through the trouble of researching and designing them when a super, mega tank would do, with probably a much smaller profile?

[Aensland]

Nah, small tweaks, not large ones. Unfortunately most equipment is already relatively similar in power, like the low end lasers: 3 dmg for the small laser vs. 6 for the medium. If they were like 30 dmg and 60 dmg, it might have been feasible for a 35 dmg mod. But as it is they are too close so we get balance problems. I don't think inventory is too big an issue. It's most likely only feasible to create several variations on a few of the items, not all of them. Even a three-fold increase means little since the average is 6 items per category.
 
Oh well, the figures aren't in a convenient database which we can modify or add to anyway, this is all just wishful thinking
 
Shadow: got any interesting mech profile pics? I mean the overhead views like you can find in the folder. Might be possible to scale it for ToS:WS graphics.

[ShadowB]

I've noticed that Titans have a LOT of frames in their animation files, so it's virtually impossible to find other mechs with all those frames, exactly in the same semi-isometric angle ToS:WS uses. We'd have to check other mech strategy games. At the moment, I can only think of Power Dolls, but the graphics are somewhat outdated and strictly top-down.

[Aensland]

Anything overhead can do, the rotated frames can photoshoped without too much trouble I hope. Power Dolls you say? I think my brother has that stored somewhere. Old game right, not familiar with it.
 
One thing I noticed, some of the ToS:WS art features Titans without arms - whereas in the game all of the chassis sport arms

[Thorgrim]

ORIGINAL: ShadowB

Thorgrim, you seem to have taken offense from what I said. I was just stating my opinion, and never aimed to turn this thread into a western mech vs. eastern mecha debate. I never said we westerners are more stupid, nor that everything has to be "agile" and "cool" (the latter being just an opinion). After all, if mechs exist just because they can beat the crap out of anything and that's it, why go through the trouble of researching and designing them when a super, mega tank would do, with probably a much smaller profile?

I didn't take offense, you yourself said that probably many would disagree, and I did. [;)] You pointed out that western style mechs are generally blocky and uncool, sluggish and with agility problems, and they add nothing to the current combat vehicles; I don't see you backing any of that up. I know it's not true, and I was trying to determine how well you know BattleTech to make such comments.
Yes, you never said explicitly that westerners are more stupid, but what do you think is implied in saying eastern style mechs are cool and agile and efficient and practical, whereas western style mechs are none of that, without putting things into context (I'm not familiar with any games involving those eastern style mechs; I was addicted to RoboTech, but that was when I was what, 12?). You never mentioned any dates, power of weapons, thickness of armor, etc for for those eastern mechs, so how can there be a comparison?
Notice I only said they are more unrealistic in my first reply, and I then explained my point. You didn't really refute that, convincingly.
As for the reason mechs exist, if you don't know the differences between them and convencional armor, then we're wasting our time. No terrain restrictions, movement profile, airdrop capability, etc. Check how vehicles are treated in BT, if you haven't already.

[Thorgrim]

ORIGINAL: Aensland

Nah, small tweaks, not large ones. Unfortunately most equipment is already relatively similar in power, like the low end lasers: 3 dmg for the small laser vs. 6 for the medium. If they were like 30 dmg and 60 dmg, it might have been feasible for a 35 dmg mod.

Hmm, I don't see the point. Increasing the order of magnitude of weapon damage (and armor and internal structure and whatever else) just to create space for additional weapons that will add nothing to the game doesn't strike me as a good idea. There's already 3 regular lasers, plus the pulse. That's enough variety in lasers if you ask me. Besides, the current figures are about the norm for this kind of game.

But as it is they are too close so we get balance problems. I don't think inventory is too big an issue. It's most likely only feasible to create several variations on a few of the items, not all of them. Even a three-fold increase means little since the average is 6 items per category.

There is still some space for some variations of existing weapons, but not that much. What use is having a few more weapons if they'll have the same role as existing ones? Oh yes, you can create a boatload of "new" designs, but will they really add anything new? Now, new weapons are a whole new issue, but they have to fit in the game style.

Oh well, the figures aren't in a convenient database which we can modify or add to anyway, this is all just wishful thinking

Heheh. The equipment database...

[Aensland]

Check out the equipment in Armored Core then - a lot of stuff is similar to each other. And it's not just about damage - weight, power usage, range... there's a lot to tweak. Maybe the differences aren't really big, but it's more about variety.
 
We could have scenarios where certain mech teams have preference to equipment from certain companies for example. Government-backed squads with cheap equipment (heh). Why can't the rebels in the campaign have different armament, after all they're backed by different factions right. Maybe they don't have enough resources for better stuff and have to contend with jury-rigged and salvaged equipment. Or squads from different star systems, surely they don't have the exact duplicate equipment. Take a look at the list, there's only Krios, Morola, Triton, Mark, CyberSys, just a handful of companies really. There's room enough for competing companies.
 
Hmm, there's an equipment database? [X(] Nothing in the folders suggests itself as such - I thought it was all hardcoded since there are so few items.

[Thorgrim]

I was actually thinking of BattleTech's weapons inventory actually [;)] There's lasers in all shapes and sizes, for all kinds of tastes (regular, ER, pulse, heavy, micro, X, combinations of these, etc.). Same for ACs, and LRM ammo types, and whatever else. I kinda prefer the compartimentalization of weapon types. If you want range use LRMs, if you want low heat use ACs, etc. I think this insures that each weapon type has its use. Notice I'm just stating my opinion. I know that variety gives the impression that the game is more interesting, but in the end do you really care if you're using a pulse laser or a gatling laser, as long as it does its job? [:D]

Regarding differentiated equipment, you can always either set one of the sides to use only designs with non-special weapons, or set the weapons to light damage - this requires locking the designs in the map though, no random choice.
As for being from different star systems, this is pretty much like the Inner Sphere [;)]
The equipment companies issue, today the trend is to merge or acquire rival companies (be it computers, cars, whatever), why should it be different in the future?

[Aensland]

To be honest, no, I'm not one of those Armored Core nuts who can tell the difference between handling a Pixie and a Fairy for instance (light machine guns) - but if you hang around the Lost Raven board for example you'll find this kind of geekspeak everywhere. Put variety in the game and people will adapt - as long as each different item actually does perform differently. Titans of Steel has a great turn system, I'm sure people will find a way to think up equip profiles that help shave time / PU usage / heat given the opportunity.
 
I agree most of the campaign stories seem to limit themselves to the Core Worlds with only a couple of forays out. Oh well, maybe somebody will come up with more good maps. Alas, work keeps me too busy currently to digest the editor's full functions at better speed.

[Thorgrim]

I took a glance at AC, and the game has nothing to do with ToS. It's real-time for one, and ToS has these things called hexes that are 333m wide. Maybe there are MGs with say different ranges in AC, but is the difference anywhere near 333m? I'm sure there are different Core Worlds manufacturers, that make MGs with different ranges, but surely that difference isn't 1hex! You can elaborate on that if you're writing fiction about the game, but when it comes to the actual game rules, those weapons will just have the same stats - look at the stats as average values if you will. Now, to have a MG with longer range I'd say a new weapon would have to be created, like a Heavy MG. Sadly, there'll be no more patches.
 
I've been thinking about this I said:

Regarding differentiated equipment, you can always either set one of the sides to use only designs with non-special weapons, or set the weapons to light damage - this requires locking the designs in the map though, no random choice

and it's not really true - the part about locking the titans. Just build a new database (edit the standard one after making a backup copy, for example) with only designs that have the weapons you think the other faction should have (regular lasers and ACs and LRMs and SRMs for example), build a campaign, and when playing that campaign switch databases to the modified one. This has no effect on your team's titans. You can set some equipment and/or weapons to light damage in the editor if you want to make the impression that they're using sub-standard equipment.
 
 
@ShadowB
I also took a glance at Power Dolls, and I just can't figure how someone can say that those mechs with huge weapon pods sprouting out of their shoulders can be even remotely labeled as realistic... I'd be surprised if those could move, let alone be agile.
 

[CrushU]

Regarding the few companies:
This is present today. Look at laptops, or CPUs. There's about three or four companies that make laptop parts. All these others, Toshiba, HP, Dell, Acer, etc, just assemble the parts. That's it. Same with Dell and HP computers for the most part, they don't make their own components, they assemble components into systems. This is why they cost so much. ^.^ So, no, I don't see any reason there should be more companies.

Regarding Eastern vs Western mechs.
Mechs don't fly. Putting 40+ tons into the air is hard to begin with, hence why jumpjets last only a few minutes at the most. I can't imagine what the heck they use to sustain flight on their mechs. As for agility, anything you control is only going to be as agile as you are, decreased a little if you're fiddling joysticks or buttons or dials. Now, I do know of one mech game that's completely unrealistic for mech movement. One Must Fall 2097. (And Battlegrounds, but most people are only familiar with 2097) This is a mech fighting game, using roughly humanoid robots, for the most part. (Flail, Gargoyle are notable exceptions) They move way too fast, unless we get some seriously powerful servos and actuators. However! They have a mind interface for their robots (a side-effect is that you can be dizzied by successive hits) so that the robots are as agile as your mind, theoretically.

In any case, I prefer the Western 'mechs (Mechwarrior, Mechcommander, Battletech, Heavy Gear) to the Eastern 'mechs (Gundam) simply because I really don't see mechs being that colorful. [:'(]

Regarding additions to the weapons:
Not necessary. There, two little words that summed up the entire thing.

You *could* put more weapons in, but to what point? IMO, the current complexity of the Titan design is just right. It's complex enough that you can (1) Royally screw up a Titan. (2) Customize a Titan for your specific pilots. (3) Design a Titan from the ground up in roughly two hours and have it work.

Putting more weapons in would supplement (1) and (2), but it would degrade (3), so that you'd be spending alot more time looking at all the weapons that are in the game, and having to think of which ones you want to use, etc, etc. So, it would be *interesting*, but overall not worth it and unnecessary.

[kshinner]

ORIGINAL: CrushU

Regarding additions to the weapons:
Not necessary. There, two little words that summed up the entire thing.

You *could* put more weapons in, but to what point? IMO, the current complexity of the Titan design is just right. It's complex enough that you can (1) Royally screw up a Titan. (2) Customize a Titan for your specific pilots. (3) Design a Titan from the ground up in roughly two hours and have it work.

Putting more weapons in would supplement (1) and (2), but it would degrade (3), so that you'd be spending alot more time looking at all the weapons that are in the game, and having to think of which ones you want to use, etc, etc. So, it would be *interesting*, but overall not worth it and unnecessary.

It would be "worth it" to me. I'd love to have the opportunity to select an AC 4b that costs twice as much as the AC 4, weighs a little more, but results in one less heat. In fact, that would give me a good reason to design more Titans. With as many Titans as come with the game, the design I was thinking of is probably already made.

Really, though, no reason to argue. Some would like it. Some wouldn't. A "Weapons Mod" would certainly be optional for each user. The question is, how can it be done? I've poked around with a hex editor but it hasn't been too fruitful. Even if I do it only for my own use (let's be honest, there isn't a lot of ToS activity these days), I'd like to know.