Help needed - MWIF naval counter descriptions

[terje439]

Well after using way too long time on writing down the information about the naval counters for MWiF I am finally complete. Or that is as finished as I could get, the problem however is that I was left with some units where I could not find all the information I wanted/needed, and for some none at all, the latter usually being because I do not speak spanish, chinese or japanese. On that behalf it was suggested that I turned here for help, hoping that someone of you guys could help me find the lacking information that is needed.
I think I will need to do the pieces some a few at the times, and hopefully you could reply on this thread if you have any information about the ship.

In advance, thank you for your help
Terje

[terje439]

ok so here we go with the first pieces;

-The USS Montana. This BB was never completed, but if anyone is capable of finding some information of what sorts of stats this class would have had, it would be greatly apreciated. (stats=thickest armor, main guns, top speed, engine output etc)

-the USS Coral Sea, anyone know her thickest armor?

-the USS Midway. anyone know her total Horsepower on the shafts (all shafts combined), and her thickest armor?

I think we will start with these 3, again any help is greatly apreciated. Thank you all

Terje

[wfzimmerman]

ORIGINAL: terje439

ok so here we go with the first pieces;

-The USS Montana. This BB was never completed, but if anyone is capable of finding some information of what sorts of stats this class would have had, it would be greatly apreciated. (stats=thickest armor, main guns, top speed, engine output etc)

-the USS Coral Sea, anyone know her thickest armor?

-the USS Midway. anyone know her total Horsepower on the shafts (all shafts combined), and her thickest armor?

I think we will start with these 3, again any help is greatly apreciated. Thank you all

Terje

Montana-class BBs were planned to have 12 x 16" guns, 28 knots.

[Froonp]

-The USS Montana. This BB was never completed, but if anyone is capable of finding some information of what sorts of stats this class would have had, it would be greatly apreciated. (stats=thickest armor, main guns, top speed, engine output etc)
-the USS Coral Sea, anyone know her thickest armor?
-the USS Midway. anyone know her total Horsepower on the shafts (all shafts combined), and her thickest armor?

Both CVs are from the same Class, which had 3 Carriers : CV41 Midway, CV42 FD Roosevelt, CV43 Coral Sea.
I've found things about these :

1) "Le guide des porte-avions" by Giano Galuppini, at Nathan Editions, ISBN -209-284 826-7 :
There are 3 pages on them and their various upgrades after the war, with some profile plans and drawings.

The total Horsepower mentionned is 212 000 CV (be carefull as CV -- we say this "Chevaux" in French -- are not exactly the same as your hp), for 4 Turbines, 4 Shafts and 12 Boilers.
About the Armor, it doesn't talk much about that, only saying that the top protection is the flight deck, which is "heavily armored" (the Midway Class are the first US CVs with an armored flight deck). It compares the Midway's armor to the light Essex's armor which it says was 37 mm.

2) "The Illustrated Directory of Warships from 1860 to Present Day" by David Miller at Greenwhich Editions, ISBN 0-86288-677-5 :

There are 2 pages on this class.
Propulsion : 4 Shafts, Westinghouse Turbines, 12 Boilers, 212,000 shp, 33kts, 15,000 nm at 15kts.
Armour : Belt 193 mm, flightdeck 89 mm, hangar deck 51 mm, armour deck over belt 51 mm, bulkhead 160 mm.


Also, I've seen the CV Coral Sea in France, in Marseille's Harbor, a bunch of years ago !!! [:D]


About the BB, here is what I found :

1) "Warships #4 - US Battleships, Part 2" by Bob Stern, at Squadron/Signal Publications, ISBN 0-89747-157-1
There is a short paragraph about them, at the end of the Iowa section :

While the Iowas were released from the constraints of the 35,000 tons treaty limits, their desing wasn't totally free from restrictions. The width of the locks of the Panama Canal restricted beam to 108 ft, the same as that of the North Carolinas & South Dakotas. One last calss of BBs was designed by the US Navy that disregarded this final limitation. The Montana Class would have added a fourth triple 16in turret and 30 ft of length to the Iowa design. Even accepting a reduction in power and speed (172,000 shp and 28 knots), siplacement would have risen to 60,500 tons. Five Montanas were planned and two were actually ordered but all were cancelled in 1943 before any keels were laid.

Wow, 4 triple 16in turrets !!!! These are monsters !!!!!!!

[Froonp]

Here is an artist conception of BB67 Montana, as taken from Wikipedia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Montana_%28BB-67%29

[Greyshaft]

Hi Terje,
Ive gone through the list you sent and I'm confident that we can fill in the gaps. The Montana class were all cancelled in July 1943 and  information on them is a bit sketchy. Remember that we are not creating a reference book here. We are just looking to add some flavor to the counters so missing "thickest armor" or "total horsepower" isn't fatal.

[wfzimmerman]

It might be worth noting that if actually built, the Montanas would have been too slow to keep up with the fast aircraft carriers (who flew aircraft at 33 knots).  They would have wound up as an extremely expensive covering force and shore bombardment for Operation Olympic. 

They were partly conceived as a response to the Yamato class, but it's not clear that their guns would have been a match for the Yamatos -- although superior 43-45 vintage radar fire control would have probably enabled them to put a lot of iron on target, it's hard to envision one of them sinking a Yamato.

[Greyshaft]

Terje,

Here's a writeup I did for the Montanas. Obviously we can use a little more technical padding at the end but we don't have to rewrite Jane's Fighting Ships. One other titbit about the Montanas is that they were one of the few classes of warship whose armor was designed to defend against the guns they were carrying.


Montana
The cancellation of the Montana class battleships meant that Montana became the only one of the contiguous 48 states never to have a USN capital ship carry its name. All ships of this class were cancelled in July 1943 prior to start of construction. 60K tons. Twelve 406mm guns. 28 knots.

Ohio
Construction of the Ohio and her four Montana Class sisters was authorised in July 1940 in the days when the recent collapse of France indicated a real possibility that Germany might win the war in Europe and eventually contest the United States for control of the Atlantic. All ships of this class were cancelled in July 1943 prior to start of construction. 60K tons. Twelve 406mm guns. 28 knots.

New Hampshire
The New Hampshire and her four Montana Class sisters were designed as “big gun” ships with the mission of fighting it out on the battleline in the spirit of Trafalgar or Jutland. As such they were five knots slower than their Iowa class predecessors, which were designed to escort the fast carrier groups of the USN. All ships of this class were cancelled in July 1943 prior to start of construction. 60K tons. Twelve 406mm guns. 28 knots.

Maine
The Maine and her four Montana Class sisters were 10K tons heavier and carried three more sixteen inch guns than their Iowa class predecessors. This gave them a broadside of 32,400 pounds of shell vs. 28,800 for Yamato and 24,300 for the Iowa. All ships of this class were cancelled in July 1943 prior to start of construction. 60K tons. Twelve 406mm guns. 28 knots.

Louisiana
The March 1940 design of the Louisiana and her four Montana Class sisters called for a displacement of 70K tons to carry engines of 320K hp giving a speed of 33 knots. By July 1940 the engines had been scaled back to 172K, tonnage reduced to 60K tons and speed dropped to 28 knots. All ships of this class were cancelled in July 1943 prior to start of construction. 60K tons. Twelve 406mm guns. 28 knots.

[wfzimmerman]

ORIGINAL: Greyshaft


Terje,

Here's a writeup I did for the Montanas. Obviously we can use a little more technical padding at the end but we don't have to rewrite Jane's Fighting Ships. One other titbit about the Montanas is that they were one of the few classes of warship whose armor was designed to defend against the guns they were carrying.


Montana
The cancellation of the Montana class battleships meant that Montana became the only one of the contiguous 48 states never to have a USN capital ship carry its name. All ships of this class were cancelled in July 1943 prior to start of construction. 60K tons. Twelve 406mm guns. 28 knots.

Ohio
Construction of the Ohio and her four Montana Class sisters was authorised in July 1940 in the days when the recent collapse of France indicated a real possibility that Germany might win the war in Europe and eventually contest the United States for control of the Atlantic. All ships of this class were cancelled in July 1943 prior to start of construction. 60K tons. Twelve 406mm guns. 28 knots.

New Hampshire
The New Hampshire and her four Montana Class sisters were designed as “big gun” ships with the mission of fighting it out on the battleline in the spirit of Trafalgar or Jutland. As such they were five knots slower than their Iowa class predecessors, which were designed to escort the fast carrier groups of the USN. All ships of this class were cancelled in July 1943 prior to start of construction. 60K tons. Twelve 406mm guns. 28 knots.

Maine
The Maine and her four Montana Class sisters were 10K tons heavier and carried three more sixteen inch guns than their Iowa class predecessors. This gave them a broadside of 32,400 pounds of shell vs. 28,800 for Yamato and 24,300 for the Iowa. All ships of this class were cancelled in July 1943 prior to start of construction. 60K tons. Twelve 406mm guns. 28 knots.

Louisiana
The March 1940 design of the Louisiana and her four Montana Class sisters called for a displacement of 70K tons to carry engines of 320K hp giving a speed of 33 knots. By July 1940 the engines had been scaled back to 172K, tonnage reduced to 60K tons and speed dropped to 28 knots. All ships of this class were cancelled in July 1943 prior to start of construction. 60K tons. Twelve 406mm guns. 28 knots.

The Yamato v. MOntana debate (a hardy perennial on sci.military.naval) also takes into account range and armor thickness -- i think Yamato had edge on both counts.

[terje439]

ORIGINAL: Greyshaft

Hi Terje,
Ive gone through the list you sent and I'm confident that we can fill in the gaps. The Montana class were all cancelled in July 1943 and  information on them is a bit sketchy. Remember that we are not creating a reference book here. We are just looking to add some flavor to the counters so missing "thickest armor" or "total horsepower" isn't fatal.

Yes I think so too, I suspect that the main reason I had gaps at all was that I become "stuck" in my way of looking for information, so someone else might find heaps of information that I missed. So when Steve gave me the go ahead to post about it here I was deligthed. And I agree that is it not the end of the world if we miss some stats, but if it can be avoided all the better
So I will continue to post ships I need help on here, as is obviuos alot of people here have access to sources I do not (besides my local library is not the best place to find information as it is located in the back of a shop and only contain some 1000 titles all in all:P )

[terje439]

More ships were help is needed.

USS Langley - engine output is the only thing I need about this one
USS Wasp - anyone know how many aircrafts it would have (max#)?

And then I am gonna add one of those ships I could not find information about because my spanish is limited to "uno cerveza por favor" (and not pronounced too good either )
Mexico - the cruiser "Anahuac"

Again thank you all for any input!
Terje

[kafka]

hi,
 
that's what I found on the light cruiser Anahuac
 

C a r a c t e r í s t i c a s

Deslocamiento: 3.162 ton.
Dimensiones: 81.43 m de comprimento, 14.48 m de boca, 6.80 m de pontal y 4.60 m de calado.

Blindaje: cinta blindada de 350 mm.
Propulsion: 2 máquinas alternativas a vapor, generando 3.400 hp, acoplado a dos ejes.

Velocidad: máxima de 14 nudos.

Radio de accion: ?
Armamento: 2 cañones Armstrong L/45 de 9 pol. (240 mm); 4 cañones L/50 de 4.7 pol. (120 mm); 6 cañones de 57 mm, 4 cañonees de 37 mm y 2 tubos lanza-torpedos submarinos Whitehead de 17 pol. (450 mm).

 
http://miarroba.com/foros/ver.php?foroid=833521&temaid=3834743
 
there are lots of pics on that page, too

[terje439]

ORIGINAL: kafka

hi,

that's what I found on the light cruiser Anahuac

C a r a c t e r í s t i c a s

Deslocamiento: 3.162 ton.
Dimensiones: 81.43 m de comprimento, 14.48 m de boca, 6.80 m de pontal y 4.60 m de calado.

Blindaje: cinta blindada de 350 mm.
Propulsion: 2 máquinas alternativas a vapor, generando 3.400 hp, acoplado a dos ejes.

Velocidad: máxima de 14 nudos.

Radio de accion: ?
Armamento: 2 cañones Armstrong L/45 de 9 pol. (240 mm); 4 cañones L/50 de 4.7 pol. (120 mm); 6 cañones de 57 mm, 4 cañonees de 37 mm y 2 tubos lanza-torpedos submarinos Whitehead de 17 pol. (450 mm).

http://miarroba.com/foros/ver.php?foroid=833521&temaid=3834743

there are lots of pics on that page, too

Thnx then another Q for you, do you know spanish? Since I can barely order a beer in spanish (most essential sentence to learn in any language imho [:D]). What I am guessing/thinking is stated here is: 3.162 tons displacement, 2x240mm main guns, 14 knots speed??, blindaje tells me nothing, 2 engines, but not sure if that is 3400 hp in total or on each?

And thnx for the link will go there and check it out later today!

[Greyshaft]

Fund some stuff about "Anahuac"

Built in France in 1898 as the "Marshall Deodora" for Brazil and then sold to Mexico in 1924

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: kafka
that's what I found on the light cruiser Anahuac
C a r a c t e r í s t i c a s

Deslocamiento: 3.162 ton.
Dimensiones: 81.43 m de comprimento, 14.48 m de boca, 6.80 m de pontal y 4.60 m de calado.

Blindaje: cinta blindada de 350 mm.
Propulsion: 2 máquinas alternativas a vapor, generando 3.400 hp, acoplado a dos ejes.

Velocidad: máxima de 14 nudos.

Radio de accion: ?
Armamento: 2 cañones Armstrong L/45 de 9 pol. (240 mm); 4 cañones L/50 de 4.7 pol. (120 mm); 6 cañones de 57 mm, 4 cañonees de 37 mm y 2 tubos lanza-torpedos submarinos Whitehead de 17 pol. (450 mm).

Thnx then another Q for you, do you know spanish? Since I can barely order a beer in spanish (most essential sentence to learn in any language imho [:D]). What I am guessing/thinking is stated here is: 3.162 tons displacement, 2x240mm main guns, 14 knots speed??, blindaje tells me nothing, 2 engines, but not sure if that is 3400 hp in total or on each?

And thnx for the link will go there and check it out later today!

Blindaje: cinta blindada de 350 mm.
Seems to mean : Belt armor 350 mm.

Propulsion: 2 máquinas alternativas a vapor, generando 3.400 hp, acoplado a dos ejes.
Seems to mean : 2 alternative Steam machines, generating 3,400 HP, connected to 2 shafts.

I used this : http://trans.voila.fr/voila to translate.

[argaur]

i am spanish what do you need to translate?

[composer99]

ORIGINAL: Beren

i am spanish what do you need to translate?

Some stabs have already been made at it, but if you look at some of the posts from Kafka's (post #12) on, you can see the data about the Mexican cruiser Anahuac that requires some translation.

[Froonp]

USS Langley - engine output is the only thing I need about this one

2 shafts, General Electric turbo-electric drive, 3 boilers, 6500 shp (I think this is the total), 15,5 kts (from the "The Illustrated Directory of Warships from 1860 to Present Day").

USS Wasp - anyone know how many aircrafts it would have (max#)?

USS Wasp : 76 Aircraft (from the "The Illustrated Directory of Warships from 1860 to Present Day").
This is the same aircraft capacity as USS Ranger.

And then I am gonna add one of those ships I could not find information about because my spanish is limited to "uno cerveza por favor" (and not pronounced too good either )
Mexico - the cruiser "Anahuac"

Can't find it.

[terje439]

This os working out great, so here are some more units

Peru - Almirante Grau - main reason I could not find anything here is my lack of spanish
skills. On this ship I am in need of stats and some information,
anything important that happened in her life, when she was
commissioned/decommissioned etc.

Argentina - La Argentina - same as above (Almirante Grau), only found spanish sites. Any
input would be valued.

Again, thank you all!

Terje

[Froonp]

Argentina - La Argentina - same as above (Almirante Grau), only found spanish sites. Any
input would be valued.

La Argentina.
From the "The Illustrated Directory of Warships from 1860 to Present Day"