CC Weapons on Heavy and Assault titans.

PrinceCorrin · Post by **PrinceCorrin** » Mon Oct 22, 2001 6:16 pm

You compare them like one side should come out on top, but this isn't the case. I have not argued for one side or the other for a very good reason. No one weapon is clearly superior in every aspect than all others.
Let's compare some similar weapons.

First, the age old battle: GMs vs LRMs
GMs have slightly longer range, concentrate damage more, have better to-hit against moving targets and indirect targets. Are effectively countered by flares and/or ECM.
LRMs do not have the disadvantage imposed by flares and/or ecm, but they can be effectivel countered by dodging.
No real winner there.

Gauss Cannon vs Plasma Gun (these really are similar in range and damage)
GC has less range and less damage. Takes up a lot more space and weight. Takes 1 PU per cannon to fire. Is far more accurate. Neither weapon has ammo that will explode.
PG has more range, is much smaller and lighter, takes PUs to reload. Has a minimum range.
No clear winner here either, most people would take the GC, but what if you don't have the space or weight? I've seen a PG on a recon, but never a GC on a recon.

See, my point is, you can compare and compare and compare, but all it really comes down to is personal preferance. There really isn't any weapon type that's better than all the others.

jmikkone · Post by **jmikkone** » Mon Oct 22, 2001 7:10 pm

I mostly agree with you, PC, I still use energy weapons eventhough my studies have shown that they may not always be the 'wisest' choise. It's usually a matter of finding an extra two slots' worth of free space somewhere, and the question : Shall I put in Flares, ECM, Shield, DCS, or, perhaps an extra pulse laser? Even engine 1 does have some excess PU's available if you're just standing still & sniping. Excactly what a support titan needs. <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

I also proved earlier that if you're to put The Big Gun (tm) into a light, it'd better be energy weapon or you'll run very low on either armor or ammo, usually both. My study above clearly suggests at least medium, preferably heavy titan setups. Lighter titans may have a variety of weaponry and still expect to play fairly well, but twin-PL's don't do much on Assaults. <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

I'm still not convinced about that point you made about GM's and LRM's. You mentioned dodging as the main defense against LRM's. Well, guess what? It also works against GM's! But here again, it's finesse vs brute power. Very similar setup with AC12 and GC, just looking at the stats would easily reveal AC12 being 'better', but you'll need an experienced jock that doesn't need that extra +10% toHit mod to utilize AC12 to its full effect. I suppose you agree with me that a quad-AC12 titan sneaking on you gives you a lot more creeps than a quad-GC one, but it'd be the other way around when that titan stood on a forested mountain hex..

PrinceCorrin · Post by **PrinceCorrin** » Mon Oct 22, 2001 7:51 pm

Actually, I disagree. Quad GC's are much more of a terror than AC12s. Ac12s are lovely, and I do like them, but GCs are just so much more accurate. I fear them because of what *I* can do with them. Ask Hetzer about how an assault stands up to 5 GCs.

tarendelcymir · Post by **tarendelcymir** » Mon Oct 22, 2001 9:00 pm

Personally, I prefer to have both on my titans, just in case the enemy gets really close to me. That penalty on the GC can hurt when he's on top of you. If you've got a GC and an AC12, you've got accuracy and power at both ranges.

LarkinVB · Post by **LarkinVB** » Mon Oct 22, 2001 10:22 pm

Thats also what I prefer. I like the Gauss for its accuracy but like the extra punch *and* the smoke ability of the AC12. In WS smoke will be a bit higher ( 25m instead of 20m ) and will no longer be reduced by scanner capability.

Thorgrim · Post by **Thorgrim** » Tue Oct 23, 2001 3:31 pm

Originally posted by PrinceCorrin:
You compare them like one side should come out on top, but this isn't the case. I have not argued for one side or the other for a very good reason. No one weapon is clearly superior in every aspect than all others.
Let's compare some similar weapons.

I've seen a PG on a recon, but never a GC on a recon.

See, my point is, you can compare and compare and compare, but all it really comes down to is personal preferance. There really isn't any weapon type that's better than all the others.

Aren't you comparing?! <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> Comparing is healthy. I have nothing against it. The kind of comparison Jukka made, a very detailed one, that's what I think is useless. It's not only a matter of personal preference, but also of available space and weight. And of purpose of course.

I like energy weapons as complementary weapons, for torching woods and 'final push' alphas. They're also great if you find a lake to park in, or for disabling downed opponents when you don't have to worry about other titans, when you're out of ammo or want to save it.
An energy based titan *must* have a TB to overload shields in case it runs into one, IMO. That's the best role for the TB if you ask me.
I'm not saying cannons are better, all weapons have their place and purpose.

And there is a recon with a GC, the Unicorn, Bblue modified it to sport a GC.

About the GC/AC12 discussion, let's not forget the GC is primarily a sniper weapon. Go up a hill and snipe away at your opponent's leg or something. 5 of them will just savage a leg in no time. The AC12's smoke ability is nice, but it won't cover you if your opponent is up a hill. I'm not stating any preferences here, just saying that an all-GC titan *is* powerful, and IMO loses a bit if some GCs are traded for AC12s. The Annihilator is a beast.

Thorgrim · Post by **Thorgrim** » Tue Oct 23, 2001 3:40 pm

Originally posted by tarendelcymir:
Personally, I prefer to have both on my titans, just in case the enemy gets really close to me. That penalty on the GC can hurt when he's on top of you. If you've got a GC and an AC12, you've got accuracy and power at both ranges.

GCs have a min range of 2, and they have a 15% edge over AC12s for accuracy. Those 15% cover exactly the 'range 1 hex' penalty, so you only have to worry about point blank. But by then you should have your target on its knees <img src="smile.gif" border="0">
Also, with an all-GC titan you can fire constantly even in the red or white, you can't do that with the AC12. Even losing CtH to heat, you still have the accuracy of the weapon to compensate. Not with the AC12. Well, not exactly, the AC12 has ~4% over the GC for range, but my argument still stands.

Thorgrim · Post by **Thorgrim** » Tue Oct 23, 2001 5:34 pm

D'oh! What am I saying?! In fact it's the GC that has a *further* edge over the AC12 cause of range, 7~8%! So only at point blank does the AC12 have advantage, but a small one. 2 hexes more is murderous for this weapon.

Thorgrim · Post by **Thorgrim** » Tue Oct 23, 2001 5:43 pm

Originally posted by THE Iceman:

And Mike, Larkin saw for himself the power of GMs, which I had already told him about way back. *I* didn't change a thing. I see it as my obligation to report whatever I think is unbalanced. Is this wrong in your oppinion?

This was obviously not for Michael, but for Lyhrrus. Sorry. <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

Lyhrrus · Post by **Lyhrrus** » Tue Oct 23, 2001 10:08 pm

Never said it was wrong. Just said it got changed because you pointed it out. <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

IKerensky · Post by **IKerensky** » Tue Oct 23, 2001 11:32 pm

Sorry to be late, I just conduct some more test and want to apologize to Iceman ( did I really need too ). it seems I have to revert to my no weapon in the arms politic when I reach class heavy titan ( wich can look stupid cause they have more space in the torso , but sigh ).

I want also say I was only concentrated on PG so I just forgot about all the others.

About the testing of Canon versus laser I want to disagree about the needded HR and ENgine I saw to use 2PG, that is plainly wrong, especially with a sniping AT that just sit in a dank wood to be usefull, here is my Heavy Long Tom ( Light titan with 2PG ) and I can insure you it work perfectly heat and reload wise:

Titan Name: Heavy Long Tom (Light Attack Titan)
Chassis: Morola L2
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Weight: 70.0t (70t maximum) Height : 9 [meter]
Bmt : 21 (57 kph) Reduce Heat: -3.1C/sec.
No Jump-Ports Cost : 148921 ($)

Equipment:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Component/Type/Location

Engine :Triton T2 [Engine 2] [CBT ]
Heatreg. <img src="biggrin.gif" border="0"> elinit H7 [Heat 7]
LifeSup.:B.M.I. [Life 3] [LT ]
Scanner :Triton [Scan 4] [Head]
Computer:Mark BC-X [Comp. 6] [CT ]

Weapons:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Location/Weapon/Ammunition/SL

[RT ] PLASMA GUN
[LT ] PLASMA GUN

Armor:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Armorindex: 5.10 [Total APts/T]
Internal: 158 [APts]
External: 199 [APts] Max:[065mm]
Total Armor: 357 [APts]

You see E2, HR7 and it is nicely fonctionnal and so damn quick on the grass he doesnt need that JJ that much. His only downpoint is his armor but thatis corrected in the Deluxe version ( 100T ). Thsi design is made just to operate 2 PG from static station with great precision and he work really nice this way. Now if I have had to put 2GC with enough ammo to stand the full fight... I dont think I would have succeed, or perhaps I will but I would have had to put them in the arms wich I dont want to do on a light design, with already not so nice armor.

jmikkone · Post by **jmikkone** » Wed Oct 24, 2001 12:15 am

Greywolf,

It's true that a sniper doesn't really need that many EXTRA PU's for his weapons as its main purpose is to stand still, but in way too many cases you'll have to run for those hills for more than just a couple of hexes. And while running you'll have reload times skyrocketing. Sniper is not very good at ground level, having usually way too many obstacles hindering sight.

Now with the greatly increased reload times for cannons, energy weapons have gained my approval as well, since while you can't stand the heat firing all the time, they'll dish out so much damage so quickly that it evens out to some extent.

I do agree that Long Tom design of yours will certainly raise up some curses if found under multiple jocks at 3:1 ratio against my Assault team.. A good heat reg never made up a bad titan, IMHO. With so few critical slots, you're better of with energy as you suggested.

IKerensky · Post by **IKerensky** » Wed Oct 24, 2001 1:17 pm

Hum yep perhaps but I think aginst your Assault team they will fight the "God" , a longtom with 4 PG <img src="tongue.gif" border="0"> and heavy class armor, at a 2 to 1 ratio.

Also when you calculate the efficiency at long range I guess youdont neede to calculate for constant fire, simply cause you will probably make some 15 to 9 second scans between shoots, that is what I do for my first 2 reload.

Yes I will move 2 to 3 hexes probably but that doesnt imper me really, after all the opponent too need to close on, and he need it badly than me (or perhaps he dont if he is GM heavy ). But when fighting start moving dont become such an hurry.

I dont play a lot on large map cause I found it plain boring, but on medium map you dont have to move a lot to find a good spot...

IKerensky · Post by **IKerensky** » Wed Oct 24, 2001 1:46 pm

I am replying to myself, holy cow I should get a life, dont I ?

I forget to say that Laser benefit more than canon from the game environnement:
- They can burn forest and cause smoke in water. AC could cause smoke but that wate a perfectly good round for not guaranteed effect. With laser you can fancy yourself in pyrimania without drawbacks.
- They benefit more from the water extra cooling because tehy rely more on heat. a bit silly but not that much afterall as a pro argument . I dont like river 'cause I dont like pilot skill test but they can be a viable option nevertheless.
- In polar environnement they rule, and the extra smoke is really welcome when outnumered to partiton the battlefield.
- In Hell environnement they should have a problem but not that much in fact, because all EW design have 99% luck of having a "more than needed" HR and Canon/Missile design a "just as needed" one, so they tend to be less annoyed by extra heat, and they dont risk ammo problem at all, in the worst case. Of course plenty of AT Canon design have bigger than needed HR, but with the extra slot they used they tend to not have that many place avaliable...

Thorgrim · Post by **Thorgrim** » Wed Oct 24, 2001 2:01 pm

Hey Ivan, no offense meant but I really think you should try some other weapons. The PG is a great weapon, but no reason for a fixation. It does produce a lot of heat, even after the modification. Your Long Tom won't be that heat efficient if the woods you're standing in are torched. *Then* you'll need those PUs you're reserving for recycling. It *will* be a primary target in team games.

Thorgrim · Post by **Thorgrim** » Wed Oct 24, 2001 2:07 pm

Originally posted by Ivan GREYWOLF Kerensky:
About the testing of Canon versus laser I want to disagree about the needded HR and ENgine I saw to use 2PG, that is plainly wrong, especially with a sniping AT that just sit in a dank wood to be usefull, here is my Heavy Long Tom ( Light titan with 2PG ) and I can insure you it work perfectly heat and reload wise:

Huh, how can this work perfectly heat and reload wise if you have engine 2 (6 PUs), and it needs to feed the scanner and the heat reg (2 PUs) *and* recharge the 2 PGs (6 PUs)??
Plus you have a heat dissipation of -3.1 C/sec and PGs heat at +2.0 C/sec each??
Not that I let myself guide by these when designing titans, but your math is a little off here... <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

Thorgrim · Post by **Thorgrim** » Wed Oct 24, 2001 3:56 pm

Originally posted by Ivan GREYWOLF Kerensky:
- In Hell environnement they should have a problem but not that much in fact, because all EW design have 99% luck of having a "more than needed" HR and Canon/Missile design a "just as needed" one, so they tend to be less annoyed by extra heat, and they dont risk ammo problem at all, in the worst case.

I don't agree with the 99% argument. Energy based titans that have a heat overhead are either a miracle or severely short in firepower. Most energy weapons produce ~2C/sec, so any 2 of these will overtax *any* heat reg - I'm counting with movement here, and then there's shields.

Also, in Polar not everything is good for energy weapons. Woods are harder to burn, so cannon/missile snipers are less threatened in woods. Movement rate is also decreased due to snow, so energy titans, which have shorter ranges and therefore need to close in, will take longer to get into range. PG titans without JPs will also take longer to climb hills <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

IKerensky · Post by **IKerensky** » Wed Oct 24, 2001 5:20 pm

Yes Iknow I am a bit fixated on PG, NM and NG but that is becaus I keep my AT KISS, that is I only give the 1 weaponnary system, and sometimes HtH weapons. I will probably been realy fixed on BRG , Meson Gun next week, and will go for GM, GC, and all the canon or FT afterwards...

About math, yes I am aware of the little problem, that is why I mention you dont have to calculate efficiency with continuous fire, obviously you will have to conduct a Scan or 2 and/or a Flare launch sometimes between your fires, so this extra reloading / heat management problem wont be really taken into account, not to mention the fact I need to adjust lock once every 5 to 6 shoot to another AT ...

That why my LT design is efficient , but less than the Medium one, in battle even if he seems a bit short on paper...

I am also a bit mixed about sitting , and especially in the woods... I am not sure that the extra protection will go for the burn possibility, so if there is wood near that is good, if there is not, I wont move to get in some...

About being the main target, I am not that sure afterall... Remember me of what is the most dangerous titan thread, my typical team is :

- 1 Long Tom serie,
- 1 FireStorm serie ( model with at last 5 NM14 from 70t on , good elec and NICE armor and HR )
- 1 Nephillim serie ( Mixed HtH combat , with 2+ BRG )
- 1 Mind Flayer serie ( Mixed HtH combat , with 2+ NG )

so what to hit for ?? when you have 5 NM14 closing in and 2 guys that can ruin your day if they come close enough to hit you easily 2 puny 11s damage at low % to hit the firer dont seems to be the most dangerous adversary... As always team games have a lot different perspective than duel <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

and I still hate JP ( with or without snowed hill <img src="tongue.gif" border="0"> ) but they seems to be really needed when hitting the 100+ tons range, far more than for the lower titans, that are my favorites...

Thorgrim · Post by **Thorgrim** » Wed Oct 24, 2001 7:22 pm

Originally posted by Ivan GREYWOLF Kerensky:
About math, yes I am aware of the little problem, that is why I mention you dont have to calculate efficiency with continuous fire, obviously you will have to conduct a Scan or 2 and/or a Flare launch sometimes between your fires, so this extra reloading / heat management problem wont be really taken into account, not to mention the fact I need to adjust lock once every 5 to 6 shoot to another AT ...

You really have to make up your mind if the titan is efficient or not. <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> If it requires scans and flare launches (which BTW don't hamper your reloads, they are completely independent), I'd say it isn't.

I am also a bit mixed about sitting , and especially in the woods... I am not sure that the extra protection will go for the burn possibility, so if there is wood near that is good, if there is not, I wont move to get in some...

Well, crouching not only gives you a defensive bonus but also gives you an offensive bonus, that cancels the dense woods penalty.

About being the main target, I am not that sure afterall... Remember me of what is the most dangerous titan thread, my typical team is :

- 1 Long Tom serie,
- 1 FireStorm serie ( model with at last 5 NM14 from 70t on , good elec and NICE armor and HR )
- 1 Nephillim serie ( Mixed HtH combat , with 2+ BRG )
- 1 Mind Flayer serie ( Mixed HtH combat , with 2+ NG )

so what to hit for ?? when you have 5 NM14 closing in and 2 guys that can ruin your day if they come close enough to hit you easily 2 puny 11s damage at low % to hit the firer dont seems to be the most dangerous adversary... As always team games have a lot different perspective than duel <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

It's all a matter of range. All others are short range, so they're no immediate threat.
I'd like to see that 5NM14 light of yours with nice armor... does it have armor at all? <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> Don't tell me you used the arms for the racks <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

Who said it's easier to quote in *this* forum?! Line by line?! Aw.

PrinceCorrin · Post by **PrinceCorrin** » Wed Oct 24, 2001 7:50 pm

Originally posted by THE Iceman:
[QB]

Aren't you comparing?! <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> Comparing is healthy. I have nothing against it. The kind of comparison Jukka made, a very detailed one, that's what I think is useless. It's not only a matter of personal preference, but also of available space and weight. And of purpose of course.QB]

Isn't that what I said? <img src="tongue.gif" border="0">