More Titans for Titans of Steel

[rosary]

Originally posted by THE Iceman:


No, *yours* is an interesting statement. Especially for a designer. A VB one. You have a formula for engine quality depending on a titan's tonnage?! That's interesting. So you disregard PU output/requirements completely?! Nice Eric.

---

Iceman, You are continously questioning my perfection! Probably with good reason too. Thats fine. Perhaps you can give us a point by point run down of why 8 Pu's is not enough for the Shaman mk II. Hint* I knew there were problems with it when I posted it. So why would I do such a thing? I don't need to post my good designs. Its the designs that aren't so great that need help.

By the way, your comments have always been well recieved by VB. Don't go changing to try and please us.

[rosary]

THE Iceman, I see I didn't answer your question about the databases. This is still being worked on but I can safely assume that there will be the basic 5 titan databases 1-5 as v1.4 uses as well as some others. We are probably going to add a 'campaign only' and a "duel only' database.

[Thorgrim]

Originally posted by Eric Petersen:


I'm not trying to kill players; just give them a good challenge so they can move to the next map in the campaign. IT would be a moment where players first say oh crap! then proceed to mop up the enemy and gain good experience. Also called shots make sl's much more deadly than you are suggesting.

---

Ok, let me try to express my point without sounding aggressive. <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> If the AI uses these "weak" designs and the players design their own "overpowered" designs, then where's the challenge? OTOH, if the AI also has access to those overpowered designs, what's the point of these weak designs? Am I making any kind of sense?

About called shots with SLs, how are they deadly? You need to be *really* close, and for that you need to move. Your design, as well as A Card's Apparition II which you said is very good, will not recycle the SLs if you're on the move, so how are they good? The Apparition II's 3 SLs are even dead weight, as 2 of them won't recycle if you use the CSs. As I said before, why not using 1 ML instead of 2 SLs?

[Thorgrim]

Originally posted by Eric Petersen:


Iceman, You are continously questioning my perfection! Probably with good reason too. Thats fine. Perhaps you can give us a point by point run down of why 8 Pu's is not enough for the Shaman mk II. Hint* I knew there were problems with it when I posted it. So why would I do such a thing? I don't need to post my good designs. Its the designs that aren't so great that need help.

By the way, your comments have always been well recieved by VB. Don't go changing to try and please us.

---

Well, when you make such a comment about weight/engine quality and say I'm wrong, I feel I must say something. Wouldn't you?

About the Shaman, and assuming its the titan in question, you need 5 PUs base (movement, scanner and heat reg), and then you have an ECM and a shield 2, which accounts for the other 3 available PUs the engine provides. So how are you going to recycle the SLs? And then I said, only if you're standing still, but your weapons' ranges are very low. So where exactly am I wrong? You can count on the 2 PUs from the shield when it is not necessary, but what about when it is? It cuts down your firepower seriously. So I suggested dropping the SLs and putting in a ML. It can recycle slowly if you don't have enough PUs, but you can stand still at 9- hexes and shoot, which you can't with SLs. Also it matches the SRM range. It's really quite simple.
It's got good defense, could be used as spotter if it had some more range. Range 4 doesn't cut it IMO. Not for the most part of your arsenal.

[Thorgrim]

Originally posted by Jukka Mikkonen:
Iceman,

The manual states that moving only requires 1-3 PU. At least I haven't seen a table (no, it's not in the guide either) where the actual usages have been clarified more, so it was only natural to assume the following :

---

I see you haven't examined the guide closely. It *does* have the tables, in an excel file that is part of the guide, in the Movement section.

[rosary]

Originally posted by THE Iceman:


Well, when you make such a comment about weight/engine quality and say I'm wrong, I feel I must say something. Wouldn't you?

About the Shaman, and assuming its the titan in question, you need 5 PUs base (movement, scanner and heat reg), and then you have an ECM and a shield 2, which accounts for the other 3 available PUs the engine provides. So how are you going to recycle the SLs? And then I said, only if you're standing still, but your weapons' ranges are very low. So where exactly am I wrong? You can count on the 2 PUs from the shield when it is not necessary, but what about when it is? It cuts down your firepower seriously. So I suggested dropping the SLs and putting in a ML. It can recycle slowly if you don't have enough PUs, but you can stand still at 9- hexes and shoot, which you can't with SLs. Also it matches the SRM range. It's really quite simple.
It's got good defense, could be used as spotter if it had some more range. Range 4 doesn't cut it IMO. Not for the most part of your arsenal.

---

Maybe removing the sl's and mg's would make this a decent light if instead I add another srm 4 or better yet, switch to LRM 6 or 1 LL. It still won't have punch but its role as a spotter/support would be augmented. Then the shield might as well be removed as it won't be in range of most energy weapons. How does that sound?

[PrinceCorrin]

Originally posted by THE Iceman:


I see you haven't examined the guide closely. It *does* have the tables, in an excel file that is part of the guide, in the Movement section.

---

Well *I* don't have excel. So <img src="tongue.gif" border="0"> <img src="tongue.gif" border="0"> <img src="tongue.gif" border="0"> <img src="tongue.gif" border="0"> <img src="tongue.gif" border="0"> <img src="tongue.gif" border="0"> <img src="tongue.gif" border="0"> <img src="tongue.gif" border="0">
How you like them rasperrries?

[rosary]

Originally posted by THE Iceman:


Well, when you make such a comment about weight/engine quality and say I'm wrong, I feel I must say something. Wouldn't you?

About the Shaman, and assuming its the titan in question, you need 5 PUs base (movement, scanner and heat reg), and then you have an ECM and a shield 2, which accounts for the other 3 available PUs the engine provides. So how are you going to recycle the SLs? And then I said, only if you're standing still, but your weapons' ranges are very low. So where exactly am I wrong? You can count on the 2 PUs from the shield when it is not necessary, but what about when it is? It cuts down your firepower seriously. So I suggested dropping the SLs and putting in a ML. It can recycle slowly if you don't have enough PUs, but you can stand still at 9- hexes and shoot, which you can't with SLs. Also it matches the SRM range. It's really quite simple.
It's got good defense, could be used as spotter if it had some more range. Range 4 doesn't cut it IMO. Not for the most part of your arsenal.

---

Well, this all seems to be true but in test runs I usually have 1 or 2 free PU. Maybe I'm missing something.

[PrinceCorrin]

Originally posted by THE Iceman:

About called shots with SLs, how are they deadly? You need to be *really* close, and for that you need to move. Your design, as well as A Card's Apparition II which you said is very good, will not recycle the SLs if you're on the move, so how are they good? The Apparition II's 3 SLs are even dead weight, as 2 of them won't recycle if you use the CSs. As I said before, why not using 1 ML instead of 2 SLs?

---

I have a question: If he's supposed to get real close before he fires, why would he fire while moving? It makes no sense. Perhaps he would fire from one hex away, *THEN* move? In which case there should be plenty of time for them to recycle (I did test it). Also, I found the Apparition II's SLs to be quite adequate. An alpha strike after entering the opponent's hex was quite lovely. 98% and all. Called shots too. And when a titan is overheating SLs instead of saws are a welcome option.
I have a design called Gabriel, with lots of SLs. According to you if i substituted one ML for each pair of SLs I would be better off. In some ways that proved correct. Better range, more damage per hit, etc. But, heat was a huge problem. I could have kept a near continuous rate of fire with SLs (nearly, heat is a smaller factor with them, but still there) and would in the end do far more damage with 6 SLs than with 3 MLs.
I like Gabriel. It has less range than most other titans but it still manages to be formidable.
SLs are not useless.

[Lyhrrus]

Slight question on design, does the BC take a PU? I vaguely remember reading somewhere that it does, but practically it doesn't.

[A Card]

Just a simple observation & question... the discussion on PUs has gone on long enough to get its own topic, so why don't people make a new topic if you want to continue?

[Thorgrim]

Originally posted by Lyhrrus:
Slight question on design, does the BC take a PU? I vaguely remember reading somewhere that it does, but practically it doesn't.

---

It doesn't, and it doesn't say anywhere that it does. At least official documentation.

[Thorgrim]

Originally posted by PrinceCorrin:


I have a question: If he's supposed to get real close before he fires, why would he fire while moving? It makes no sense. Perhaps he would fire from one hex away, *THEN* move? In which case there should be plenty of time for them to recycle (I did test it). Also, I found the Apparition II's SLs to be quite adequate. An alpha strike after entering the opponent's hex was quite lovely. 98% and all. Called shots too. And when a titan is overheating SLs instead of saws are a welcome option.
I have a design called Gabriel, with lots of SLs. According to you if i substituted one ML for each pair of SLs I would be better off. In some ways that proved correct. Better range, more damage per hit, etc. But, heat was a huge problem. I could have kept a near continuous rate of fire with SLs (nearly, heat is a smaller factor with them, but still there) and would in the end do far more damage with 6 SLs than with 3 MLs.
I like Gabriel. It has less range than most other titans but it still manages to be formidable.
SLs are not useless.

---

I *really* would like to answer you, but am not gonna, cause what you're saying is completely absurd. Is this really you answering, or someone hacked your callsign?!
I find it strange that SLs are better than saws when a titan is overheating. Maybe I have a different weapons table... or do you mean when you *want* to overheat?

[jmikkone]

Sorry, Iceman, I stand corrected. PU usages for movement ARE in fact in the manual. I just never (until now) happened to check the hyperlinks in the upper left corner of the page since I though all of them would be available from the main page anyhow. Apparently not.

[Thorgrim]

The manual does have all the *base* info needed to play the game. If you're looking for the juicy details, then the guide will be of some help. But the guide does *not* replace the reading of the manual, it is merely a complement. Some of the info is duplicated in both documents, as I tried to move as much info as possible from the guide to the manual. Some of it is just too detailed to be in the manual IMO, so I left it out. Neither of them is perfect, but they'll tell you almost everything you need to know.
Oh, and I left the cheats out of the guide, on purpose. <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

[jmikkone]

Back to the original subject.. This titan seems rather weak in armaments department, but patches it up with electronics and especially thick armor for its class. Since heat reg occupies the hands before moving to LoT and CBT, I had to keep it rather weak compared to weapons to allow me to have arms completely unprotected with no risks attached. Even worse nightmare in swarms, as each of them just keeps on beating you like there's no tomorrow. Hence the name. <img src="biggrin.gif" border="0">

Titan Name: (Duracell) (Light Close Combat Titan)
Chassis: Morola L3
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Weight: 70.0t (70t maximum) Height : 10 [meter]
Bmt : 20 (60 kph) Reduce Heat: -2.7C/sec.
No Jump-Ports Cost : 148889 ($)


Equipment:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Component/Type/Location

Engine :CyberSys [Engine 3] [CT ]
Heatreg. <img src="biggrin.gif" border="0"> elinit H6 [Heat 6]
Flare :FL Large [Flare2] [RT ]
LifeSup.:B.M.I. [Life 3] [Head]
Scanner :CyberSys L [Scan 3] [Head]
Computer:Triton TC [Comp. 4] [CBT ]
E.C.M :Electra [E.C.M. 1] [RT ]


Weapons:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Location/Weapon/Ammunition/SL

[LT ] LARGE LASER
[LowT] MEDIUM LASER


Armor:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Loc/Internal/Armor/Points/mm

[Head] (11) Dullaroy 018 [026mm]
[RT ] (17) Dullaroy 043 [062mm]
[CT ] (21) Dullaroy 047 [068mm]
[CBT ] (11) Dullaroy 020 [029mm]
[LT ] (17) Dullaroy 043 [062mm]
[RA ] (19)
[LA ] (19)
[LowT] (13) Dullaroy 047 [068mm]
[RL ] (17) Dullaroy 044 [064mm]
[LL ] (17) Dullaroy 044 [064mm]

Armorindex: 6.69 [Total APts/T]
Internal: 162 [APts]
External: 306 [APts] Max:[068mm]
Total Armor: 468 [APts]


JOCK requirements:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Piloting: skill on Light Titan
Weapons : Energy
Warfare : Defensives Scanner Warfare(ECM)
Skills :

[jmikkone]

If not outright dangerous on its own, but combined with titans that for a reason or another have low armor count, this Pain In The Arse soon makes even the heaviest of titans wish for better heat regs. A pair of these propably would kill most efficiently via causing ammo explosions / shutdowns and letting other hard-hitters do the mopping-up duty on their tracks.

Note also that this doesn't need, and hence doesn't have a scanner installed. A Mk II version does with a little lower armor count for spotter purposes.

Titan Name: (PITA) (Recon Close Combat Titan)
Chassis: Cyber C-R4
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Weight: 40.0t (40t maximum) Height : 7 [meter]
Bmt : 14 (85 kph) Reduce Heat: -1.8C/sec.
No Jump-Ports Cost : 89777 ($)


Equipment:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Component/Type/Location

Engine :Morola M1 [Engine 1] [CBT ]
Heatreg.:Mechlarren [Heat 2]
LifeSup.:Livotto [Life 1] [RT ]
Computer:Triton TC [Comp. 4] [Head]


Weapons:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Location/Weapon/Ammunition/SL

[LT ] FLAME THROWER (014) [2]
[CT ] FLAME THROWER (021) [3]


Armor:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Loc/Internal/Armor/Points/mm

[Head] (11) Vicenium 013 [023mm]
[RT ] (15) Vicenium 033 [055mm]
[CT ] (19) Vicenium 033 [055mm]
[CBT ] (11) Vicenium 016 [027mm]
[LT ] (15) Vicenium 025 [043mm]
[RA ] (15)
[LA ] (15)
[LowT] (11) Vicenium 033 [055mm]
[RL ] (15) Vicenium 028 [047mm]
[LL ] (15) Vicenium 028 [047mm]

Armorindex: 8.78 [Total APts/T]
Internal: 142 [APts]
External: 209 [APts] Max:[059mm]
Total Armor: 351 [APts]


JOCK requirements:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Piloting: skill on Recon Titan
Weapons : Energy
Warfare :
Skills : Medical

[Lyhrrus]

Granddaddy of all Needlers. Actually, with the SRM4 sound file, this thing is a pain to play as well as play against. <img src="biggrin.gif" border="0"> Probably should be renamed "Screaming Death". I actually deleted it after making it cuz it was so annoying. <img src="wink.gif" border="0">


Titan Name: Test Launch (Assault Defense Titan)
Chassis: Mark MK-A4
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Weight: 184.0t (200t maximum) Height : 19 [meter]
Bmt : 33 (36 kph) Reduce Heat: -4.3C/sec.
Jmt : 12 (100 kph) for 40 secs Cost : 451947 ($)


Equipment:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Component/Type/Location

Engine :Morola M5 [Engine 5] [CT ]
Heatreg.:Mark MH-II [Heat A]
Flare :FL Large [Flare2] [Head]
Shield :Surko Defend [Shld3] [LT ]
D.C.S. :Repakoff [D.C.S.1] [LowT]
LifeSup.:Bisvo Inc. [Life 6] [Head]
Scanner :Mark X-S [Scan 6] [RT ]
Computer:Mark BC-X [Comp. 6] [CBT ]
E.C.M :Electra [E.C.M. 1] [CBT ]
JumpPort:Mark MJ-I [Jump 6]


Weapons:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Location/Weapon/Ammunition/SL

[RT ] S.R.M. 4 RACK (024) [1]
[RT ] S.R.M. 4 RACK (024) [1]
[LT ] S.R.M. 4 RACK (024) [1]
[LT ] S.R.M. 4 RACK (024) [1]
[RA ] S.R.M. 4 RACK (024) [1]
[RA ] S.R.M. 4 RACK (024) [1]
[RA ] S.R.M. 4 RACK (024) [1]
[LA ] S.R.M. 4 RACK (024) [1]
[LA ] S.R.M. 4 RACK (024) [1]
[LA ] S.R.M. 4 RACK (024) [1]
[CT ] S.R.M. 4 RACK (024) [1]
[RL ] S.R.M. 4 RACK (024) [1]
[LL ] S.R.M. 4 RACK (024) [1]
[Head] MEDIUM LASER


Armor:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Loc/Internal/Armor/Points/mm

[Head] (15) Dullaroy 027 [039mm]
[RT ] (29) Dullaroy 066 [095mm]
[CT ] (29) Dullaroy 069 [099mm]
[CBT ] (19) Millenia 035 [088mm]
[LT ] (29) Dullaroy 066 [095mm]
[RA ] (29) Dullaroy 066 [095mm]
[LA ] (29) Dullaroy 066 [095mm]
[LowT] (19) Dullaroy 055 [079mm]
[RL ] (25) Dullaroy 069 [099mm]
[LL ] (25) Dullaroy 069 [099mm]

Armorindex: 4.54 [Total APts/T]
Internal: 248 [APts]
External: 588 [APts] Max:[107mm]
Total Armor: 836 [APts]


JOCK requirements:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Piloting: skill on Assault Titan incl. Jump
Weapons : N.G.M Energy
Warfare : Defensives Scanner Warfare(ECM)
Skills : D.C.S Ind.Fire

[tarendelcymir]

All I have to say to that is "Ugh", Lyhrrus. <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

[rosary]

'needler God'" I'm not sure why you would install 2 or more srm4's in the same location. I don't think I'm seeing the advantage over 2 srm's vs 1 srm 8.