Supply depots

[El Savior]

I finally bought COTA about a week ago! I've been testing few scenarios and I am impressed. I would really like to remake my Seven Roads to Hell scenario, because now cut off units can be simulated much better. But probably I can't do this, coz' I don't have time right now.

Anyway I have a question or more likely suggestion for next AA-game.

I really like SEP's and how Bases got their supplies, but now it is too easy to move you supply bases without losing any supplies. So if divisional base have example 500 tons (are number tons?!?) of supplies and they move to new place it should take time to move all the supplies to new location. To simulate this base could leave supply depot on map and it will be there until all supplies are hauled to new location. There is a bonus too: if base is attacked and it will retreat, most supplies can be lost. It would be nice to have option "destroy supplies/fuel" much like there is a "deny crossing" now. If supplies are not destroyed enemy can use them (at least basic + fuel).

Oh and thanks for awesome game, again! Airborne Assault series is unbeatable!

[HansBolter]

I'm glad some one started a thread asking about supply bases.

I have a few questions t0 add myself.

Just how far up the creek without a paddle does a regiment find itself when it's supply base is overrun and surrenders to the enemy?

In my go at the British side in the Malta scenario, I managed to overrun the supply bases for the 1st and 3rd regiments of the 7th Flieger just as those regiments started a concentrated attack to retake Qrendi airfield from me. The elite fighting qualities of the paratroopers is beginning to tell and my early success in overrunning the airfield is in jeapordy as my troops reel backwards under the pressure.

Will the 1st and 3rd regiments soon find themselves out of supply, or will the Divisional headquarters pick up the slack and start funneling supplies to them?

[MarkShot]

Well, in terms of the ease by which supply bases move, this had been raised by Bil during the development process. I think the supply system will ultimately be an evolving aspect of the series. You are seeing the first cut of it with COTA. This is somewhat akin to how the movement system evolved from HTTR to COTA into the current mixed-mode system that made a firm distinction between foot and vehicle movement. Although it might be a few more product cycles until it is revisited again. The idea is to have a firm handle (control) of the number of major new features introduced with each new game in the series. Otherwise, one could end up with the incredible three year development cycle phenomena for a title.

NOTE: The above opinions reflect only my own thoughts and do not reflect official PG policy as to the future direction of the series (unless, of course, Dave so states).

[El Savior]

I understand that it's impossible to add everything at once and I am ready to wait.

I have couple questions how supply and bases is handled in COTA.

1. I'm playing Maleme historical scenario and it have two supply points (SEPs), one at Maleme (SEP1) and second at south (SEP2). My 7th FJD base is near SEP2 and so its subbase FJR3, but LL Base(Luftlande Regiment) is near Maleme and enemy is holding area between SEP1 and SEP2. Does LL use supplies directly from SEP1 at Maleme because it can't contact 7th Div Base? I know that regiments will first try to get supplies from div base, but if it is destroyed or out of contact. My units next to LL Base are almost out of supply after three days.



2. How does redeploying Base effect to dispatching supplies? Manual says that it takes considerable time to redeploy a Base. Do Bases dispatch supplies immediately when they are deployed or is there a waiting period after move?

3. What happens if Base is attacked or routed? Is there any supply lost?

[MarkShot]

I will defer these questions to Dave as I was cutting class the day supply was covered. It was a question of basics or the beach, and I chose the beach.

[JeF]

Hi,

Happy to see you again on the forums.
Even though I'm not a specialist, I'll risk some answers here.

ORIGINAL: El Savior
1. Does LL use supplies directly from SEP1 at Maleme because it can't contact 7th Div Base?

You can easily check it by displaying supply lines.
My guess is thet LL still uses supply from 7th div base. Only destruction of the 7th div base will reaffect LL base to another one. But I don't know the rules.

2. How does redeploying Base effect to dispatching supplies? Manual says that it takes considerable time to redeploy a Base. Do Bases dispatch supplies immediately when they are deployed or is there a waiting period after move?

No. There is a delay. I don't know what event is used to trig the dispatching process again. But you'll notice that no request is treated while moving and that it takes a certain time afte redeployement to have your requests treated.

3. What happens if Base is attacked or routed? Is there any supply lost?

I'm not sure. I'll leave it up to Dave.

JeF.

[Arjuna]

Everyone leaves it up to Dave! [:)]
 
Re Moving a Depot. Depot's can only process requests and despatch supply columns while they are deployed. It takes hours for Bases to deploy. So if they move they will be off-line for some time.
 
Re Which SEP to draw from. Each resupply determination event ( 0600 and 1800 ) the AI will determine which Depots draw from which SEPs. What happens in this process gets quite complex. Suffice to say that all SEPs are ranked by their suitability to each Base and the BAse assigned to the most suitable SEP. In determining suitability it factors in range, enemy FP, reachability, whether it's superior Base is also drawing from it etc. So its biased to having Bde Bases draw from the same SEP as the Div Base but if there is a closer SEP handy it will more than likely use that.
 
Re Overrunning Depots. The effects are not immediate for a number of reasons. Units have their own stock of supplies and in some cases these may suffice for up to 48 hours, though unlikely if in heavy combat. What's more at the next Resupply Determination event, the units will try and draw from the next superior Base/Depot. This will place an extra burden on that Depot's transport capacity and so deliveries will be delayed. What's more the loss of all the supplies overrun may introduce rationing. However, if there is no superior Base to draw on or it is unreachable, then units will run out of supplies on average within 24-48 hours. If they are heavily engaged in combat then they may run out of ammo within hours. Once a unit gets below 20% of its ammo allocation it starts rationing and reduces the rate of fire. SO you may see them continue to fire but less often and using less rounds.

[Arjuna]

Re Retreating Bases. Yes they will lose at least 50% of their supplies. Sad isn't it.[:(]
 
They automatically lose 50% but any supplies they cannot carry are also lost. So if they were stockpiling for some time, then they could lose heaps.

[Arjuna]

Re Creating onMap Supply Dumps when a Depot moves. We did discuss this at length, but decided to keep things simple. We wanted to avoid a plethora of dumps all over the map and to reduce the processing load that would be involved in managing them. After all players are supposed to be commanders not logisticians. This is one case where abstraction won out.

[Major Disaster]

Since supply (and perhaps capture of fuel from allied stockpiles if you believe the BOTB Movie) was such a major factor for the Germans any chance the decision to abstract stockpiles may be rethought for BftB?

[Arjuna]

In reality the Germans never captured any significant stocks of allied supplies during the Ardennes battle, but yes it may add a nice what-if. It will all depend on available developemnt time. At the moment we have spend a lot more time on the COTA patch than I anticiapted.  We'll see.

[El Savior]

Thanks for the answers!

It seems I hadn't defended my bases enough. I love how new logistics works now. Now it is important to defend your Bases and your HQs to avoid delays and disorganisation. It feels much authentic to re-fight those battles when supply works like it is now. It seems my Crete campaign is going bad because my bases and HQs are under attack. Enemy is everywhere!

Capturing depots would be a nice feature in the future. Already command structure, movement and AI is awesome. Adding supply depots that can be captured would add another level for logistics. But there is so many other (probably more importanting too) than supply depots. One is mines. Second is effect of severe weather. Yes, I would love to see effect of -40 degreed celsius frost and deep snow on tracked/fueled vehicles. Maybe someday AA engine can simulate Finnish Winter War. [:D] I've been reading a lot about Finnish Winter and Continuation War lately.

Look at the time! I have only two hours to spend for COTA. Maybe just enough to make the breakthrough. [8D]

[Trigger Happy]

actually, such things would be useful for the east front game too where the Soviets and Germans often captured their adversary's supply base. For example, the trucks and equipment 24TC captured in Mankovo during their drive towards Tatsinskaja was probably vital for 24TC's succesful raid. 

[Arjuna]

The thing with captured supplies is that the only stuff of use to the other side is the basics and fuel. Yet for the defender the majority of tonnage is ammo. Ammo probably accounts for 70%, fuel 20% and basics 10%. On the offensive the fuel component rises at the expense of ammo to around 45/45/10. It's rare for an attacker to have its supply base overrun - I know that in the cauldron of the North African desert and the see-sawing battles on the Russuain steppes it did happen.

So even if an attacker does overrun an enemy base, they can use the fuel ( unless its petrol and friendly tanks use deisol or vice versa ) and eat/drink the basics. Incorporating captured trucks was not as straight forward as you might think. They had to be remarked, otherwise friendly aircraft shot them up. So often they didn't factor until the next battle.

The point I wanted to make was that overruning an enemy's base is important not because of what it may provide your forces but what it will deny to the enemy forces.

[RayWolfe]

ORIGINAL: Arjuna
So even if an attacker does overrun an enemy base, they can .......... eat/drink the basics.

Then, of course, you had 1941 Brits capturing Italian spaghetti and German cheese in toothpaste tubes. The first they didn't know what to do with it, the second they thought disgusting. When the Axis captured tea and Spam, they probably thought much the same. [;)]
Ray

[sterckxe]

ORIGINAL: RayWolfe

ORIGINAL: Arjuna
So even if an attacker does overrun an enemy base, they can .......... eat/drink the basics.

Then, of course, you had 1941 Brits capturing Italian spaghetti and German cheese in toothpaste tubes. The first they didn't know what to do with it, the second they thought disgusting. When the Axis captured tea and Spam, they probably thought much the same. [;)]
Ray

There's a famous picture of a Volksgrenadier chewing on some captured American chocolate during the Bulge - he seemed to like it [;)] - good boots and cigarettes were also highly in demand - that's not really combat material but maybe we could enhance the moral of a unit after it overruns a base [;)]

For game/combat purposes : During the Bulge Peiper did capture some minor quantities of fuel, he never went for the large supply depots though there's some evidence he knew about at least one of them. It's an interesting what-if of course but I think there are historically more important features to implement than the capturing of an enemy supply base which historically the Germans never managed.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

[HansBolter]

ORIGINAL: Arjuna

Re Overrunning Depots. The effects are not immediate for a number of reasons. Units have their own stock of supplies and in some cases these may suffice for up to 48 hours, though unlikely if in heavy combat. What's more at the next Resupply Determination event, the units will try and draw from the next superior Base/Depot. This will place an extra burden on that Depot's transport capacity and so deliveries will be delayed. What's more the loss of all the supplies overrun may introduce rationing. However, if there is no superior Base to draw on or it is unreachable, then units will run out of supplies on average within 24-48 hours. If they are heavily engaged in combat then they may run out of ammo within hours. Once a unit gets below 20% of its ammo allocation it starts rationing and reduces the rate of fire. SO you may see them continue to fire but less often and using less rounds.

I'm quite impressed with how detailed the model is!

The first battallion of the 100th mountain regiment landed on Qrendi airfield right on top of three battalions of British troops, coming in at full strength and with no discernable period of disorganization promptly started to chase the Brits off the airfield. Now thats what I call STORMING an objective. As I pointed out in a prior thread, I think we still need some work on the effects of airlanding on an enemy occuppied or fireswept airfield.

[MarkShot]

A side note: Given how important bases now are, I treat them in a manner similar to arty. I detach them and decide where they should be located during the conflict and rarely move them.

Although maybe I'll add question in here (as result of so much ERG playing) ... should bases ever be exited? And on a somewhat related note, should the most senior HQs ever be exited before subordinate organic forces which are currently dettached?

[JeF]

ORIGINAL: MarkShot
A side note: Given how important bases now are, I treat them in a manner similar to arty. I detach them and decide where they should be located during the conflict and rarely move them.

Same here. I noticed a tendency of the tacAI to keep them close to the SEP. Even though it seems a good idea to keep them safe, you have to remember that your convoy will have to reach your units and it takes time, so it's better to have your bases not too far.

And pay attention at the moment you move them. Move them as soon as they have finished dispatching supplies. Otherwise, they will stop and no supply will be distributed while they move.

Although maybe I'll add question in here (as result of so much ERG playing) ... should bases ever be exited? And on a somewhat related note, should the most senior HQs ever be exited before subordinate organic forces which are currently dettached?

Exiting bases ? Why not ?
Exiting senior HQ ? Again why not ? But IIRC, the game does not like when there is not any on map boss. But I do it often at the end of a game where all points count.

JeF.

[Deathtreader]

Second is effect of severe weather. Yes, I would love to see effect of -40 degreed celsius frost and deep snow on tracked/fueled vehicles.

Interesting point El Savior. If the main effect of weather is currently visibility oriented (thus units move more slowly etc.) it will be interesting to see how axle deep mud is simulated an hour after the rainstorm is over and the sun has come out (thus improving visibility) somewhere on the Russian front. Or even terrible ground conditions during the BFTB after the skies have begun to clear. Maybe modelling sky conditions, temperatures, and ground conditions individually (all influencing each other of course) would do it. Worked well for a certain "wego" series of classic games. [;)]
Regards,

Rob. [:)]