More Titans for Titans of Steel

tarendelcymir · Post by **tarendelcymir** » Sat Nov 10, 2001 6:04 am

Originally posted by Eric Petersen:
'needler God'" I'm not sure why you would install 2 or more srm4's in the same location. I don't think I'm seeing the advantage over 2 srm's vs 1 srm 8.

Firing speed, I guess. 4s recycle faster than 8s. And since the heat from 2 SRM4s is the same as 1 SRM8, you get to fire five seconds faster with the same heat. Another advantage I can think of is the amazing tendency for missiles to hit the head--if you fire 4 SRM8s, you'll probably hit the head three times or so. If you fire 8 SRM4s, you'll probably hit it five or six times. I don't know, just spewing thoughts off the top of my head. <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> I still hate the Needler. <img src="tongue.gif" border="0">

Lyhrrus · Post by **Lyhrrus** » Sat Nov 10, 2001 6:20 am

I did 3 SRM4s vs 2 SRM8s based on slot equvalence and 2 SRM4s vs 1 SRM8 based on weight equivalence (not counting ammo).

Results are as follows:

3 SRM4s
1.15 heat/sec
1.85 dmg/sec (max potential)
4.8 dmg/heat (max potential)
6 missile minimum if all racks hit

2 SRM8s
1.11 heat/sec
1.78 dmg/sec (max potential)
3.2 dmg/heat (max potential)
8 missile minimum if all racks hit

2 SRM4s
0.77 heat/sec
1.23 dmg/sec (max potential)
3.2 dmg/heat (max potential)
4 missile minimum if all racks hit

1 SRM8
0.56 heat/sec
0.89 dmg/sec (max potential)
1.6 dmg/heat (max potential)
4 missile minimum if all racks hit

So, at slightly marginally higher heat, you can get a better damage potential. That's my reasoning for SRM4s over SRM8s. Also, it allows for a more constant bombardment as well as saving slots in the legs for more armor. <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

Lyhrrus · Post by **Lyhrrus** » Sat Nov 10, 2001 6:22 am

It's also the same reason for LRM6s over LRM12s in my Launcher design. LRM6s outclass the LRM9s and LRM12s pretty much in every way.

Lyhrrus · Post by **Lyhrrus** » Sat Nov 10, 2001 6:23 am

Last thing, collectively a bunch more tiny weapons (in missiles at least) allows for constant damaging. Each miss hurts slightly less. Downside is there's a lot lot lot more ammo to pop. <img src="biggrin.gif" border="0">

Lyhrrus · Post by **Lyhrrus** » Sat Nov 10, 2001 6:33 am

Same principle.

Titan Name: Eternal Flame (Assault Defense Titan)
Chassis: Mark MK-A4
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Weight: 179.6t (200t maximum) Height : 19 [meter]
Bmt : 32 (37 kph) Reduce Heat: -4.8C/sec.
Jmt : 12 (100 kph) for 41 secs Cost : 423253 ($)

Equipment:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Component/Type/Location

Engine :CyberSys [Engine 3] [CT ]
Heatreg.:Mark MH-II [Heat A]
Flare :FL Large [Flare2] [CBT ]
Shield :Simson-Light [Shld1] [LowT]
LifeSup.:Bisvo Inc. [Life 6] [Head]
Scanner :Mark M-S [Scan 5] [Head]
Computer:Mark BC-X [Comp. 6] [CBT ]
JumpPort:Mark MJ-I [Jump 6]

Weapons:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Location/Weapon/Ammunition/SL

[RA ] N.M. 7 RACK (014) [1]
[RA ] N.M. 7 RACK (014) [1]
[LA ] N.M. 7 RACK (014) [1]
[LA ] N.M. 7 RACK (014) [1]
[RT ] N.M. 7 RACK (014) [1]
[RT ] N.M. 7 RACK (014) [1]
[LT ] N.M. 7 RACK (014) [1]
[LT ] N.M. 7 RACK (014) [1]
[CT ] N.M. 7 RACK (014) [1]
[RL ] N.M. 7 RACK (014) [1]
[LL ] N.M. 7 RACK (014) [1]

Armor:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Loc/Internal/Armor/Points/mm

[Head] (15) Dullaroy 027 [039mm]
[RT ] (29) Vicenium 064 [107mm]
[CT ] (29) Dullaroy 069 [099mm]
[CBT ] (19) Millenia 035 [088mm]
[LT ] (29) Vicenium 064 [107mm]
[RA ] (29) Vicenium 054 [090mm]
[LA ] (29) Vicenium 054 [090mm]
[LowT] (19) Dullaroy 055 [079mm]
[RL ] (25) Millenia 042 [105mm]
[LL ] (25) Millenia 042 [105mm]

Armorindex: 4.20 [Total APts/T]
Internal: 248 [APts]
External: 506 [APts] Max:[107mm]
Total Armor: 754 [APts]

JOCK requirements:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Piloting: skill on Assault Titan incl. Jump
Weapons : N.G.M
Warfare : Defensives Scanner
Skills : Ind.Fire

jmikkone · Post by **jmikkone** » Mon Nov 12, 2001 3:25 pm

I suppose I prefer larger missile racks just because the only weapons you can install two per location are SRMs and NM7s if you also want to have anywhere near decent ammo count and/or thick armor plating. Besides, having to shoot umpteen racks at a time does take quite considerable IRL time, after all. <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

LRM6s and NM14s with their 3-slot weapon would allow only for one slot of ammo for each and still take up 8 slots combined. Those places that have 12 slots usually have a Heat Reg in there as well, so you'll have only 3 left for armor. An Assault shouldn't have less than that, IMHO.

Other than that, those multi-SRM designs take you down surprisingly fast once they get in range..

jmikkone · Post by **jmikkone** » Mon Nov 12, 2001 10:25 pm

In search for the most difficult titan to master, here's one pretty decent sample. This one has all the toys you could imagine plus a wide variety of weapons - a true all-around titan indeed. Only thing that is NOT included is usability, though. <img src="biggrin.gif" border="0">

Interestingly, eventhough this P.O.S stinks in all accounts, the pegboard gives it full 18 pegs, propably due to its fine electronics. BTW, try shooting this down with GMs, Mesons or energy weapons only and see why I like cannons & LRMs. <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

Titan Name: (Tech Toy) (Assault Close Combat Titan)
Chassis: Mark MK-A4
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Weight: 200.0t (200t maximum) Height : 19 [meter]
Bmt : 34 (35 kph) Reduce Heat: -4.7C/sec.
Jmt : 12 (100 kph) for 37 secs Cost : 488181 ($)

Equipment:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Component/Type/Location

Engine :Mark MK-X [Engine A] [CT ]
Heatreg.:Mark MH-II [Heat A]
Flare :FL Surround [Flare6] [CBT ]
Shield :Surko Ensure [Shld6] [RT ]
D.C.S. :S.A.W.Fast [D.C.S.6] [LT ]
LifeSup.:Bisvo Inc. [Life 6] [CBT ]
Scanner :Mark X-S [Scan 6] [Head]
Computer:Mark BC-X [Comp. 6] [LT ]
E.C.M :Mark EXL [E.C.M. 6] [RT ]
JumpPort:Mark MJ-I [Jump 6]

Weapons:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Location/Weapon/Ammunition/SL

[RL ] FLAME THROWER (014) [2]
[LL ] LIGHT MESON GUN (026) [2]
[RA ] S.R.M. 4 RACK (024) [1]
[RA ] BLACK RAY GUN
[RA ] POWER AXE
[LA ] G.M. 3 RACK (024) [2]
[LA ] PULSE LASER
[Head] SMALL LASER
[CT ] SMALL LASER
[LowT] SMALL LASER

Armor:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Loc/Internal/Armor/Points/mm

[Head] (15) Dullaroy 027 [039mm]
[RT ] (29) Vicenium 033 [055mm]
[CT ] (29) Vicenium 033 [055mm]
[CBT ] (19) Vicenium 016 [027mm]
[LT ] (29) Vicenium 033 [055mm]
[RA ] (29) Vicenium 033 [055mm]
[LA ] (29) Vicenium 032 [054mm]
[LowT] (19) Vicenium 032 [054mm]
[RL ] (25) Vicenium 032 [054mm]
[LL ] (25) Vicenium 032 [054mm]

Armorindex: 2.76 [Total APts/T]
Internal: 248 [APts]
External: 303 [APts] Max:[107mm]
Total Armor: 551 [APts]

JOCK requirements:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Piloting: skill on Assault Titan incl. Jump
Weapons : N.G.M G.M. Energy Cannon C.C.
Warfare : Defensives Scanner Warfare(ECM)
Skills : D.C.S Ind.Fire

jmikkone · Post by **jmikkone** » Mon Nov 12, 2001 11:39 pm

On a bit more serious thought, how about this one?

My original Clockwork design was similar, but had a futile Chainsaw and worse heat reduction rate because of the Dullaroy armor I used in it. I thought there was room for improvement, and this is what I ended up with. This is one of the designs I certainly would place into the 'most dangerous' category, as I've seen the beauty of how everything seems to fall in place with this one.

Having extremely good heat reduction rate, you can run/dodge and keep your shield up while blasting away with all three GCs, with their +toHit mod countering penalties. While running, you're most likely to get green scans on the way, thus pinpointing enemies that will die like flies when you reach the Neutron Blaster range. Once there, slow down, alternate targets quickly and take those weakling Replicants out with NBs while using GCs to beat on tougher opponents. Utilize the BRG to hold your enemies prone if you feel so inclined to. We all know you are. <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

One of the unfortunate sacrifices is rather low armor count, but as it stands, changing over from Millenia to Dullaroy wouldn't net you much more APs because of having limited amount of slots available. IMHO the extra ~30 APs pale in comparison with that extra -0.5C/sec heat reduction bonus achieved here. You have to keep in mind that you'll also be reducing enemy's capabilities to mount an attack on you.

Titan Name: (Clockwork) (Assault Close Combat Titan)
Chassis: Mark MK-A3
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Weight: 199.0t (200t maximum) Height : 19 [meter]
Bmt : 35 (34 kph) Reduce Heat: -4.9C/sec.
Jmt : 14 (85 kph) for 30 secs Cost : 458177 ($)

Equipment:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Component/Type/Location

Engine :Morola M5 [Engine 5] [CBT ]
Heatreg.:Mark MH-II [Heat A]
Shield :Simson-Light [Shld1] [LowT]
D.C.S. :Surko [D.C.S.3] [CT ]
LifeSup.:Bisvo Inc. [Life 6] [Head]
Scanner :Mark M-S [Scan 5] [Head]
Computer:Mark BC-X [Comp. 6] [CT ]
E.C.M :TraCop [E.C.M. 5] [LT ]
JumpPort:Morola MJ [Jump 4]

Weapons:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Location/Weapon/Ammunition/SL

[RA ] GAUSS CANNON (045) [3]
[RT ] GAUSS CANNON (045) [3]
[LA ] GAUSS CANNON (045) [3]
[LT ] BLACK RAY GUN
[RL ] NEUTRON BLASTER
[LL ] NEUTRON BLASTER

Armor:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Loc/Internal/Armor/Points/mm

[Head] (15) Dullaroy 026 [038mm]
[RT ] (29) Vicenium 052 [087mm]
[CT ] (27) Dullaroy 055 [079mm]
[CBT ] (17) Millenia 017 [044mm]
[LT ] (29) Vicenium 052 [087mm]
[RA ] (29) Millenia 041 [104mm]
[LA ] (29) Millenia 041 [104mm]
[LowT] (17) Millenia 041 [104mm]
[RL ] (25) Vicenium 057 [095mm]
[LL ] (25) Vicenium 057 [095mm]

Armorindex: 3.42 [Total APts/T]
Internal: 242 [APts]
External: 439 [APts] Max:[104mm]
Total Armor: 681 [APts]

JOCK requirements:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Piloting: skill on Assault Titan incl. Jump
Weapons : Energy Cannon
Warfare : Defensives Scanner Warfare(ECM)
Skills : D.C.S

A Card · Post by **A Card** » Fri Nov 16, 2001 8:29 am

When my single player game advanced I made a few heavies for my pilots. This is a LR energy titan; I tried to optimize the output for the PGs, with the LL for shorter range options.

Titan Name: <%Flare> (Heavy Close Combat Titan)
Chassis: Durania H2 Jock:TIRA Team:SORCEROR HUNTERS
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Weight: 140.0t (140t maximum) Height : 15 [meter]
Bmt : 31 (38 kph) Reduce Heat: -4.8C/sec.
Jmt : 15 (80 kph) for 37 secs Cost : 325888 ($)

Equipment:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Component/Type/Location

Engine :Mark MK-I [Engine 8] [RT ]
Heatreg.:Mark MH-II [Heat A]
Shield :Simson-Medium[Shld4] [CT ]
LifeSup.:Triton TL [Life 4] [CBT ]
Scanner :Mark M-S [Scan 5] [LT ]
Computer:Mark BC-X [Comp. 6] [Head]
E.C.M :TraCop [E.C.M. 5] [LT ]
JumpPort:Coltos [Jump 3]

Weapons:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Location/Weapon/Ammunition/SL

[LA ] PLASMA GUN
[RA ] PLASMA GUN
[RA ] LARGE LASER

Armor:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Loc/Internal/Armor/Points/mm

[Head] (13) Vicenium 019 [032mm]
[RT ] (25) Vicenium 032 [054mm]
[CT ] (23) Vicenium 031 [052mm]
[CBT ] (13) Millenia 017 [043mm]
[LT ] (25) Vicenium 032 [054mm]
[RA ] (23) Vicenium 027 [045mm]
[LA ] (23) Vicenium 031 [052mm]
[LowT] (15) Vicenium 032 [054mm]
[RL ] (19) Vicenium 031 [052mm]
[LL ] (19) Vicenium 031 [052mm]

Armorindex: 3.44 [Total APts/T]
Internal: 198 [APts]
External: 283 [APts] Max:[089mm]
Total Armor: 481 [APts]

JOCK requirements:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Piloting: skill on Heavy Titan incl. Jump
Weapons : Energy
Warfare : Defensives Scanner Warfare(ECM)
Skills :

Lyhrrus · Post by **Lyhrrus** » Fri Nov 16, 2001 8:38 am

kinda thin on armor...

A Card · Post by **A Card** » Fri Nov 16, 2001 8:39 am

This is my Heavy LRM. The SRMs seem to work well on those closer titans and let you conserve ammo somewhat. I didn't run out of ammo against 2 heavy/mediums & 4 recons by alternating racks; this of course gave me a lower damage output.

Titan Name: <%Storm Wind> (Heavy Defense Titan)
Chassis: Durania H4 Jock:CHOCOLATE Team:SORCEROR HUNTERS
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Weight: 138.4t (140t maximum) Height : 16 [meter]
Bmt : 29 (41 kph) Reduce Heat: -2.9C/sec.
Jmt : 14 (85 kph) for 43 secs Cost : 259846 ($)

Equipment:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Component/Type/Location

Engine :CyberSys [Engine 3] [LowT]
Heatreg. <img src="biggrin.gif" border="0"> elinit H6 [Heat 6]
LifeSup.:B.M.I. [Life 3] [CBT ]
Scanner :Mark M-S [Scan 5] [CBT ]
Computer:Mark BC-X [Comp. 6] [Head]
E.C.M :Electra [E.C.M. 1] [CBT ]
JumpPort:Morola MJ [Jump 4]

Weapons:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Location/Weapon/Ammunition/SL

[RT ] L.R.M. 6 RACK (020) [1]
[RT ] L.R.M. 6 RACK (020) [1]
[LT ] L.R.M. 6 RACK (020) [1]
[LT ] L.R.M. 6 RACK (020) [1]
[CT ] L.R.M. 6 RACK (020) [1]
[CT ] L.R.M. 6 RACK (020) [1]
[LA ] L.R.M. 6 RACK (040) [2]
[RA ] L.R.M. 6 RACK (040) [2]
[LL ] S.R.M. 4 RACK (024) [1]
[RL ] S.R.M. 4 RACK (024) [1]
[RA ] CHAIN SAW
[LA ] CHAIN SAW

Armor:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Loc/Internal/Armor/Points/mm

[Head] (13) Vicenium 021 [035mm]
[RT ] (27) Vicenium 025 [043mm]
[CT ] (27) Dullaroy 027 [039mm]
[CBT ] (15) Millenia 017 [044mm]
[LT ] (27) Vicenium 025 [043mm]
[RA ] (25) Vicenium 027 [045mm]
[LA ] (25) Vicenium 027 [045mm]
[LowT] (15) Dullaroy 027 [039mm]
[RL ] (21) Vicenium 028 [047mm]
[LL ] (21) Vicenium 028 [047mm]

Armorindex: 3.38 [Total APts/T]
Internal: 216 [APts]
External: 252 [APts] Max:[095mm]
Total Armor: 468 [APts]

JOCK requirements:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Piloting: skill on Heavy Titan incl. Jump
Weapons : N.G.M C.C.
Warfare : Scanner Warfare(ECM)
Skills : Ind.Fire

rosary · Post by **rosary** » Fri Nov 16, 2001 9:39 am

The storm wind looks like the kind of titan you hate to approach. You have to get near it to reduce the lrm's effectiveness but who wants to run towards 2 chainsaws. Not me. Interesting combo.

A Card · Post by **A Card** » Fri Nov 16, 2001 9:39 am

Off trying to make an assault for this thread, I ended up trying to re-make the tentakel. I've decided some things can't really be improved upon. My titan has much better heat reduction (4.2) but less armor, ammo & no flares. Unless people ask I won't post it; I think it is too similar.

PrinceCorrin · Post by **PrinceCorrin** » Fri Nov 16, 2001 1:16 pm

Originally posted by THE Iceman:

I *really* would like to answer you, but am not gonna, cause what you're saying is completely absurd. Is this really you answering, or someone hacked your callsign?!
I find it strange that SLs are better than saws when a titan is overheating. Maybe I have a different weapons table... or do you mean when you *want* to overheat?

I happen to take being called an idiot very seriously. Thank you for your opinion, I have considered it.
However I know what I know, and I DID test the titan, rather than dismissing it out of hand. Worked well enough. Perhaps I just did something colossally stupid again?
Forgive the venom, but your derisiveness was rather insulting. If you are going to attempt to maintain that your insults are unintentional, be a little subtler.

Lyhrrus · Post by **Lyhrrus** » Fri Nov 16, 2001 1:25 pm

A couple things on the Storm Wind that I would do. You've got 8 LRM6s which will produce just under 4 heat/sec. I'd reduce the arm mounted LRM6s to 1 ammo slot and upgrade to [heat reg 8]. Also, the Millenia in the back is dead weight as it doesn't help any heat dissapation as there's no heat reg there.

PrinceCorrin · Post by **PrinceCorrin** » Fri Nov 16, 2001 1:40 pm

On the Storm Wind, Lyhrrus has a good idea. I would further suggest changing ALL armor except for head to Vicenium, drop the SRMs in favor of MLs, and the saws for Axes. That gives you much lighter and smaller weapons without losing much firepower. I might also suggest losing the short range weapons altogether, as the thin armor (by neccessity, having crammed all those LRMs in there) makes it shark bait if a Fist or even a Duellist get's inside it's minimum range. There are enough LRMs to prevent that from happennning though. Most times.
One last thing. Add a bigger heat reg. That would probably be your most important change. This thing would make a lovely barbeque.

Thorgrim · Post by **Thorgrim** » Fri Nov 16, 2001 3:38 pm

Originally posted by PrinceCorrin:

I happen to take being called an idiot very seriously. Thank you for your opinion, I have considered it.
However I know what I know, and I DID test the titan, rather than dismissing it out of hand. Worked well enough. Perhaps I just did something colossally stupid again?
Forgive the venom, but your derisiveness was rather insulting. If you are going to attempt to maintain that your insults are unintentional, be a little subtler.

Yeah PC, whatever. You always were the mind reader around here, and the character judge. Think what you want, I don't care. My post was quite clear.

FYI, I also tested the titan several times and it always came up short on something. It overheats badly, even when *in water*! You cannot call shots *1 hex* away with a veteran jock - I tested it with an 80% energy jock, green scan, crouched, immobile target, that is max CtH, and it was 79%! So you can only start calling shots at point blank with most jocks. Only 3 SLs recycle on a constant basis (even the AI knows how to back away), and engine hits pretty much kill you (yes, did test it). It falls prey to GMs easily.

Also, this design is a variation of my Piranha, a SL version, which I already had designed when I designed the Piranha. I scrapped it right away. SLs suck *AS A PRIMARY WEAPON*. So don't come telling me about dismissing designs out of hand.

You really want a ML vs 2xSL rundown? Ok, here it is.
* the ML will weight 0.1 tons less
* it has 5 more range, with a 5% per hex penalty (11.3% for the SLs)
* it'll cost you less $1,000
* it'll recycle in 2 more secs for the same PUs, but giving you 5 free PUs from its recharge pattern to recycle HtH and JPs; for 2 more secs recycle (9 total) it'll need one less PU (smaller engine)
* it deals less d/s, but it also builds up less C/s, in the same proportion, which leads to exactly the same d/C figure
* against shielded titans the ML is clearly superior, the SLs getting hampered pretty badly (cause of the range penalty)
* ML has 3% chance for internals, SLs 0%
* ML more effective in instability checks and respective move skill checks if needed
* ML starts calling shots much earlier
* ML does concentrated damage
* chances for steam and burning woods are better
* ML cannot overload only shield 6, SL cannot overload shields 3~6; an average Defensive skill will kill a SL's chance to overload even a shield 1
* on head hits a ML has a 24% chance to cause light jock damage (5d12), the SLs only have a 3% chance to cause minor jock damage (2d12)
* XPs earned are higher for higher damage weapons
* XPs earned for passing weapon skill checks depend on CtH, which is clearly better for the ML

Is this enough to make my point?

jmikkone · Post by **jmikkone** » Fri Nov 16, 2001 5:17 pm

Cheers, Iceman. I'm impressed. <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

You did forget one thing, though, and not a minor one if you ask me. A ML uses only one valuable slot while 2 SLs use two.

As a matter of fact, SLs suck on almost every account. No range, no chance for any nice special effects and still all the penalties common to energy weapons. More on this subject on a separate thread.

Thorgrim · Post by **Thorgrim** » Fri Nov 16, 2001 5:25 pm

Originally posted by Jukka Mikkonen:
Cheers, Iceman. I'm impressed. <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

You did forget one thing, though, and not a minor one if you ask me. A ML uses only one valuable slot while 2 SLs use two.

As a matter of fact, SLs suck on almost every account. No range, no chance for any nice special effects and still all the penalties common to energy weapons. More on this subject on a separate thread.

<img src="smile.gif" border="0"> I kinda sounded like you, didn't I? <img src="smile.gif" border="0">
I didn't forget the slots, I just was assuming the slots were available as the discussion started out as trading 2 SLs for a ML. you think I'd actually forget something?! <img src="wink.gif" border="0">
And shhh, don't say SLs suck too loud, someone might turn against you <img src="smile.gif" border="0">
SLs *will* get a little better in WS, as their decreased heat will make them better than MLs in C/s, but still...

PrinceCorrin · Post by **PrinceCorrin** » Sat Nov 17, 2001 12:43 am

Well you were right. I really have no idea how I managed to make the Sls produce less heat than the saws? It's impossible. But I did, somehow, and that's where my argument came from. I still maintain that Sls are an excellent weapon, as I have used them EFFECTIVELY against human opponents as such. However, in this instance I conced that I was wrong about the heat, having never really bothered with the tables (you can't really blame me with Larkin changing the code all the time). So, my apologies.
You still went overboard with your response, and I'm starting to think you really are just an arrogant asshole. Sure you were right, but that's no reason to call me stupid. I'm not, never have been. Yes, your post WAS quite clear. That's why I am thinking what I am. Shape up your posts with a little common courtesy, or you will lose ALL the respect you have, from me and others. Even if you really DID know it all, that's no reason to dump on other people just because they made a mistake.