I seem to have too much free time on my hands..
I created a new Weapons chart for TOS v1.4 weapons as an Excel sheet. It can be downloaded at my homepage at http://www.hut.fi/~jmikkone
On top of the normal weapon data obtainable directly from the Factory module, a lot of miscellaneous and IMHO very much useful statistics are also included. Please feel free to suggest new ones and/or possible bugfixes and I'll update!
Also included are a chart that pits titans with nothing but a single weapon type and their maximal firepower, keeping heat and slot restrictions in mind. The other one is a chart that lets you compare weapons under very varying conditions and different ranges easily. A few illustrative graphs are also included.
I recommend this chart to anyone interested in taking part in weapon balance discussions..
Indepth study of weapons
Moderator: MOD_TitansOfSteel
Indepth study of weapons
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Jukka Mikkonen a.k.a. Sir Rechet
Jukka Mikkonen a.k.a. Sir Rechet
Some observations that instantly hit my eye while creating those charts :
1) Machine Guns and Flame Throwers are THE choice for any titan of medium or larger size, when only thing that counts is sustainable damage output. Closest tiers are SRMs and CLGs. Note how all of these have extremely high damage/heat ratios?
2) GMs are very sensitive to Flare & ECM penalties when they're compared against LRMs in terms of firepower. Already at 15% penalty due to ECM, the GM has lost its edge vs the LRM.
3) At 100% weapon skill, the Plasma Gun rules the long-range damage rate, losing only little to unhampered GM6 beyond range 11.
4) Most bang for the buck (in terms of slots vs damage rate) come from Medium and Small Lasers, not to mention CC weapons. Per slot-damage rate in weapons that need ammo seems rather pathetic in comparison, but patch it up with a higher maximum sustained damage rate due to lower heat.
1) Machine Guns and Flame Throwers are THE choice for any titan of medium or larger size, when only thing that counts is sustainable damage output. Closest tiers are SRMs and CLGs. Note how all of these have extremely high damage/heat ratios?
2) GMs are very sensitive to Flare & ECM penalties when they're compared against LRMs in terms of firepower. Already at 15% penalty due to ECM, the GM has lost its edge vs the LRM.
3) At 100% weapon skill, the Plasma Gun rules the long-range damage rate, losing only little to unhampered GM6 beyond range 11.
4) Most bang for the buck (in terms of slots vs damage rate) come from Medium and Small Lasers, not to mention CC weapons. Per slot-damage rate in weapons that need ammo seems rather pathetic in comparison, but patch it up with a higher maximum sustained damage rate due to lower heat.
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Jukka Mikkonen a.k.a. Sir Rechet
Jukka Mikkonen a.k.a. Sir Rechet
A bugfix/update just a couple of hours after the initial release. Those that downloaded it then, please recheck. <img src="wink.gif" border="0">
A short README could be in order here, as there are quite a few places that seem rather hard to understand at first.
* * * * *
In this version, there are 13 pages of tables altogether, plus a separate sheet for all the graphs.
Pg 1 : Weapon data, as in Factory module v1.4. Nothing strange here.
Pg 2 : Various statistics. By changing the Hit Ratio number just below the table allows you to change the percentage of missiles from each salvo that you expect to hit their target.
Pg 3 : Maximized damage output per second, if you decide to utilize just one type of weapon in your titan. Heat and slot space (with bare minimum electronics, BC6 and 'reasonable' amount of slots left over for armor and heat reg) restrict the amount of weapons you can install. 100% accuracy is assumed here. You can alter the heat restrictions as you please to suit different needs. The chart also states how many weapons you need to install, and in case you've run out of slot space before that, how much you have heat reg capacity overhead.
Pg 4 : A rundown on expected damages per second for a single weapon under every imaginable circumstance, range and all CtH modifiers included. You can alter weapon skill levels for the jock in question, target movement speed, shield and ECM & Flare penalties in effect and the total amount of global CtH modifiers, such as yellow/green scans, BC bonuses, dodging, forest cover, you name it.
Iceman, could you check that the assumptions I've written down are correct in there?
Pg 5 & 6 : Comparison ratings for weapons according to their expected damage potential (pg 4) vs the amount of slots needed for that particular weapon, both with 1 slot of ammo and with 3 slots. Energy weapons use up extra slots via requiring bigger engines and/or heat regs.
Pg 7 : Comparison ratings for weapons according to their expected damage potential (pg 4) vs the tonnage needed for that particular weapon. Energy weapons use up extra tonnage because of the bigger engines they require.
Pg 8 : Comparison ratings for weapons according to their expected damage potential (pg 4) vs the heat they cause to shoot.
Pg 9-13 : Maximum damage potentials for each size class under all possible circumstances using just one type of weapon. To alter the circumstances, fiddle with the numbers in pg 4.
Most of the tables can be seen also as a graph if you switch over to the 'charts' sheet. I've noticed the damage envelope graphs (damage per second vs range) especially clarifying.
* * * * *
So, enjoy the maths, my friends! Now it is rather easy. <img src="cool.gif" border="0">
A short README could be in order here, as there are quite a few places that seem rather hard to understand at first.
* * * * *
In this version, there are 13 pages of tables altogether, plus a separate sheet for all the graphs.
Pg 1 : Weapon data, as in Factory module v1.4. Nothing strange here.
Pg 2 : Various statistics. By changing the Hit Ratio number just below the table allows you to change the percentage of missiles from each salvo that you expect to hit their target.
Pg 3 : Maximized damage output per second, if you decide to utilize just one type of weapon in your titan. Heat and slot space (with bare minimum electronics, BC6 and 'reasonable' amount of slots left over for armor and heat reg) restrict the amount of weapons you can install. 100% accuracy is assumed here. You can alter the heat restrictions as you please to suit different needs. The chart also states how many weapons you need to install, and in case you've run out of slot space before that, how much you have heat reg capacity overhead.
Pg 4 : A rundown on expected damages per second for a single weapon under every imaginable circumstance, range and all CtH modifiers included. You can alter weapon skill levels for the jock in question, target movement speed, shield and ECM & Flare penalties in effect and the total amount of global CtH modifiers, such as yellow/green scans, BC bonuses, dodging, forest cover, you name it.
Iceman, could you check that the assumptions I've written down are correct in there?
Pg 5 & 6 : Comparison ratings for weapons according to their expected damage potential (pg 4) vs the amount of slots needed for that particular weapon, both with 1 slot of ammo and with 3 slots. Energy weapons use up extra slots via requiring bigger engines and/or heat regs.
Pg 7 : Comparison ratings for weapons according to their expected damage potential (pg 4) vs the tonnage needed for that particular weapon. Energy weapons use up extra tonnage because of the bigger engines they require.
Pg 8 : Comparison ratings for weapons according to their expected damage potential (pg 4) vs the heat they cause to shoot.
Pg 9-13 : Maximum damage potentials for each size class under all possible circumstances using just one type of weapon. To alter the circumstances, fiddle with the numbers in pg 4.
Most of the tables can be seen also as a graph if you switch over to the 'charts' sheet. I've noticed the damage envelope graphs (damage per second vs range) especially clarifying.
* * * * *
So, enjoy the maths, my friends! Now it is rather easy. <img src="cool.gif" border="0">
--
Jukka Mikkonen a.k.a. Sir Rechet
Jukka Mikkonen a.k.a. Sir Rechet
A few quick remarks:
* reload times of CC weapons are incorrect, they recycle at 1PU/sec only
* there's no such thing as a Tesla Coil <img src="smile.gif" border="0">
* the AC12 has -5% to hit
* not all beam energy weapons have speed/8 penalty, only regular lasers
* MGs also have speed/8 instead of speed/5
* MGs deal double damage at point blank range, with double heat and ammo consumption
When I have the time I'll check the formulas, but one thing did catch my attention. You're using slow recycling for MLs, PLs, CLGs and NBs. Did you include that in your calculations?
* reload times of CC weapons are incorrect, they recycle at 1PU/sec only
* there's no such thing as a Tesla Coil <img src="smile.gif" border="0">
* the AC12 has -5% to hit
* not all beam energy weapons have speed/8 penalty, only regular lasers
* MGs also have speed/8 instead of speed/5
* MGs deal double damage at point blank range, with double heat and ammo consumption
When I have the time I'll check the formulas, but one thing did catch my attention. You're using slow recycling for MLs, PLs, CLGs and NBs. Did you include that in your calculations?
Iceman
Thanks, Iceman, for the info! The bugfixed version is online, same URL. <img src="biggrin.gif" border="0">
Some comments..
So, the only weapons having Speed/8 CtH penalty instead of Speed/5 are SL, ML, LL, MG and both GMs?
That recycle time for PG and TB I got straight off the manual. But yes, 15 seconds is correct. *counting fingers* Counting the sum of the recycle pattern given out in the manual gives 35 total PUs. Guess no one thought that example should be updated when the PU costs got down. <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> I got carried away with counting the PU usage for PX and CS also..
Making the comparisons between energy and other weapons isn't exactly straightforward since engine tonnage grows exponentially as you need more PUs. I also tried to keep the PU costs 'reasonable' in that having, say, 2 CLGs or NBs don't really need 6 PU constantly to fire if you alternate a bit. I'm open for more advanced formulas for those comparisons! Note also that the maximum damage calculations I used pay no heed to tonnage, so some extreme combinations may not actually be possible. You don't exactly see too many Recon titans with 5 NM7s or 2 CLGs running around..
Those 'USED' columns are not integers just because it's highly unlikely to meet the heat cap with an exact integer multiple of weapons. If that column says 8.13 AC4s, it means that you need to install 9 but you can't fire all of them unless overheating is acceptable. The same goes with missile rack hit ratios : You don't see 0.6 * 12 = 7.2 missiles hitting out of an LRM12 rack, but for the sake of average damages per second it's an acceptable figure. As a matter of fact, since I didn't know the percentile, I left it as a variable so those that know better may alter it easily. <img src="wink.gif" border="0">
Having the heat caps as modifiable parameters allows you to quickly check how many weapons you can afford to cram in with your current heat reg. Some designs that rely on alphastriking, rise up the heat cap accordingly, but remember that having, say, 10C/sec heat buildup will toast your titan in just a matter of seconds, making those extra weapons just dead weight.
Some comments..
So, the only weapons having Speed/8 CtH penalty instead of Speed/5 are SL, ML, LL, MG and both GMs?
That recycle time for PG and TB I got straight off the manual. But yes, 15 seconds is correct. *counting fingers* Counting the sum of the recycle pattern given out in the manual gives 35 total PUs. Guess no one thought that example should be updated when the PU costs got down. <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> I got carried away with counting the PU usage for PX and CS also..
Making the comparisons between energy and other weapons isn't exactly straightforward since engine tonnage grows exponentially as you need more PUs. I also tried to keep the PU costs 'reasonable' in that having, say, 2 CLGs or NBs don't really need 6 PU constantly to fire if you alternate a bit. I'm open for more advanced formulas for those comparisons! Note also that the maximum damage calculations I used pay no heed to tonnage, so some extreme combinations may not actually be possible. You don't exactly see too many Recon titans with 5 NM7s or 2 CLGs running around..
Those 'USED' columns are not integers just because it's highly unlikely to meet the heat cap with an exact integer multiple of weapons. If that column says 8.13 AC4s, it means that you need to install 9 but you can't fire all of them unless overheating is acceptable. The same goes with missile rack hit ratios : You don't see 0.6 * 12 = 7.2 missiles hitting out of an LRM12 rack, but for the sake of average damages per second it's an acceptable figure. As a matter of fact, since I didn't know the percentile, I left it as a variable so those that know better may alter it easily. <img src="wink.gif" border="0">
Having the heat caps as modifiable parameters allows you to quickly check how many weapons you can afford to cram in with your current heat reg. Some designs that rely on alphastriking, rise up the heat cap accordingly, but remember that having, say, 10C/sec heat buildup will toast your titan in just a matter of seconds, making those extra weapons just dead weight.
--
Jukka Mikkonen a.k.a. Sir Rechet
Jukka Mikkonen a.k.a. Sir Rechet
Oh, and I also fixed the Machine gun damage envelopes at point-blank range. The maximal damage is not necessarily doubled since you have to keep the double heat rate in mind as well. Don't worry, the sheet already calculates that for you now. <img src="smile.gif" border="0">
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Jukka Mikkonen a.k.a. Sir Rechet
Jukka Mikkonen a.k.a. Sir Rechet
Yep.Originally posted by Jukka Mikkonen:
So, the only weapons having Speed/8 CtH penalty instead of Speed/5 are SL, ML, LL, MG and both GMs?
That recycle time for PG and TB I got straight off the manual. But yes, 15 seconds is correct. *counting fingers* Counting the sum of the recycle pattern given out in the manual gives 35 total PUs. Guess no one thought that example should be updated when the PU costs got down. <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> I got carried away with counting the PU usage for PX and CS also..
Making the comparisons between energy and other weapons isn't exactly straightforward since engine tonnage grows exponentially as you need more PUs. I also tried to keep the PU costs 'reasonable' in that having, say, 2 CLGs or NBs don't really need 6 PU constantly to fire if you alternate a bit. I'm open for more advanced formulas for those comparisons! Note also that the maximum damage calculations I used pay no heed to tonnage, so some extreme combinations may not actually be possible. You don't exactly see too many Recon titans with 5 NM7s or 2 CLGs running around..
Those 'USED' columns are not integers just because it's highly unlikely to meet the heat cap with an exact integer multiple of weapons. If that column says 8.13 AC4s, it means that you need to install 9 but you can't fire all of them unless overheating is acceptable. The same goes with missile rack hit ratios : You don't see 0.6 * 12 = 7.2 missiles hitting out of an LRM12 rack, but for the sake of average damages per second it's an acceptable figure. As a matter of fact, since I didn't know the percentile, I left it as a variable so those that know better may alter it easily. <img src="wink.gif" border="0">
Where exactly in the manual?! No recycling times in the manual...
What version of the manual are you using?! Mine says 30 PUs for 15 secs for a PG, and it is absolutely correct. I changed it myself, and the latest release comes with this version of the manual...
There might be some problems if you have lower power weapons.
So why does it say 'Used = how many weapons is maximum for this size class'? <img src="wink.gif" border="0">
Iceman
Iceman,
I got the recycle time 17 secs from the old manual version (v1.3b, I suppose?) and time for the PG somehow remained in my mind. The newest manual apparently has this corrected, as it says, under "Energy" heading in the Battle Module page :
"A Plasma Gun will recharge in 15 seconds, recharging 3,3,3,3,3,2,2,2,2,2,1,1,1,1,1 PUs.
A Medium Laser will recharge in 7 seconds, recharging 2,2,1,1,1,1,1 PUs."
I know, the wording for those 'USED' columns could have been a bit more descriptive. <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> It is supposed to mean that it's the maximum by either reaching the heat limit (usually non-integer amounts) *OR* the slot space within that size class.
Only thing I'm still missing is the all-including formula that would take into consideration all the possible circumstances at once and give a rating for the weapons.. I don't think there's one, but hey, no one said I shouldn't be searching. <img src="biggrin.gif" border="0">
I got the recycle time 17 secs from the old manual version (v1.3b, I suppose?) and time for the PG somehow remained in my mind. The newest manual apparently has this corrected, as it says, under "Energy" heading in the Battle Module page :
"A Plasma Gun will recharge in 15 seconds, recharging 3,3,3,3,3,2,2,2,2,2,1,1,1,1,1 PUs.
A Medium Laser will recharge in 7 seconds, recharging 2,2,1,1,1,1,1 PUs."
I know, the wording for those 'USED' columns could have been a bit more descriptive. <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> It is supposed to mean that it's the maximum by either reaching the heat limit (usually non-integer amounts) *OR* the slot space within that size class.
Only thing I'm still missing is the all-including formula that would take into consideration all the possible circumstances at once and give a rating for the weapons.. I don't think there's one, but hey, no one said I shouldn't be searching. <img src="biggrin.gif" border="0">
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Jukka Mikkonen a.k.a. Sir Rechet
Jukka Mikkonen a.k.a. Sir Rechet
IMO there's no such thing. You can't really include special effects in a formula, and that's why weapon stats (dps, hps, dph,...) tables IMO are mostly useless. You can get distracted by the numbers and miss what's really important. But that's just my opinion. I never use them. But they might be useful for what you proposed, weapon balance discussion - *but* only for balancing weapons within the same category (all LRMs among themselves, all GMs...).Originally posted by Jukka Mikkonen:
Only thing I'm still missing is the all-including formula that would take into consideration all the possible circumstances at once and give a rating for the weapons.. I don't think there's one, but hey, no one said I shouldn't be searching. <img src="biggrin.gif" border="0">
Iceman
I enjoyed the weapon stats. Thanks you for allowing us to see them too. In a game like TOS something like this can't be perfect especially with all the updates we've done but overall it can help lead some designers in the right direction. Thanks again. I thought you did some excellent work on this file.
I was not dismissing Jukka's work in my post. I was stating my opinion, and that's why I used "IMO" *3* times. I scanned the sheet lightly, but had no patience to really decode all the info there.
Again, numbers might be misleading. You should choose your weapons by what role you want them to perform, and according to the titan's characteristics, not by how much damage per second they do. As I said, that info might be useful in balancing weapons of the same type.
Jukka did a great job, no doubt about that, but how much of that will you actually use when *designing* a titan?
Again, numbers might be misleading. You should choose your weapons by what role you want them to perform, and according to the titan's characteristics, not by how much damage per second they do. As I said, that info might be useful in balancing weapons of the same type.
Jukka did a great job, no doubt about that, but how much of that will you actually use when *designing* a titan?
Iceman
Personally, those ARE my primary considerations when designing a titan.
Jukka, thank you so much for gifting us with the fruits of this effort. I know that you have saved me both a considerable amount of work and many embarassing mistakes by making this information available and I just wanted you to know that I for one am grateful <img src="smile.gif" border="0">
Jukka, thank you so much for gifting us with the fruits of this effort. I know that you have saved me both a considerable amount of work and many embarassing mistakes by making this information available and I just wanted you to know that I for one am grateful <img src="smile.gif" border="0">
Well, nice to know that those 10+ hours weren't spent for nothing. Thanks! <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> <img src="smile.gif" border="0">
There's a lot of statistics you could devise from those weapons, but I can't really think of anything REALLY important that is still missing.
Of course comparing, say, a BRG to an AC12 is a bit silly if you don't count the BRGs specialties, but you also have to keep in mind that a specialty isn't always so great that you'd sacrifice just about anything for it. These charts give you an idea what you'll lose by having that specialty. With the BRG vs AC12 example, a BRG is rather useless against champion jocks but just rocks vs rookies, so value the losses in firepower against that.
And yes, I also think that the damage rate is the single most important characteristic of any weapon. With the heat cap being reachable with so few weapons (especially energy!), heat efficiency comes pretty soon after that.
There's a lot of statistics you could devise from those weapons, but I can't really think of anything REALLY important that is still missing.
Of course comparing, say, a BRG to an AC12 is a bit silly if you don't count the BRGs specialties, but you also have to keep in mind that a specialty isn't always so great that you'd sacrifice just about anything for it. These charts give you an idea what you'll lose by having that specialty. With the BRG vs AC12 example, a BRG is rather useless against champion jocks but just rocks vs rookies, so value the losses in firepower against that.
And yes, I also think that the damage rate is the single most important characteristic of any weapon. With the heat cap being reachable with so few weapons (especially energy!), heat efficiency comes pretty soon after that.
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Jukka Mikkonen a.k.a. Sir Rechet
Jukka Mikkonen a.k.a. Sir Rechet
its a compass not a design spec. You can see what might work well together and try it out. I don't see this as a huge help to advanced designers who already know much of this information intuitively. But a beginner who wants to really get into designing titans in earnest might benefit from looking this over. I guess time will tell.Originally posted by THE Iceman:
I was not dismissing Jukka's work in my post. I was stating my opinion, and that's why I used "IMO" *3* times. I scanned the sheet lightly, but had no patience to really decode all the info there.
Again, numbers might be misleading. You should choose your weapons by what role you want them to perform, and according to the titan's characteristics, not by how much damage per second they do. As I said, that info might be useful in balancing weapons of the same type.
Jukka did a great job, no doubt about that, but how much of that will you actually use when *designing* a titan?
Well, the BRG turns a 100% move skill jock into a 66% one, which is hardly "rather useless" IMO. It also matches the AC12's smoke ability with its own improved fire ability (and the steam of course).Originally posted by Jukka Mikkonen:
Of course comparing, say, a BRG to an AC12 is a bit silly if you don't count the BRGs specialties, but you also have to keep in mind that a specialty isn't always so great that you'd sacrifice just about anything for it. These charts give you an idea what you'll lose by having that specialty. With the BRG vs AC12 example, a BRG is rather useless against champion jocks but just rocks vs rookies, so value the losses in firepower against that.
And yes, I also think that the damage rate is the single most important characteristic of any weapon. With the heat cap being reachable with so few weapons (especially energy!), heat efficiency comes pretty soon after that.
The goal of special effects is precisely that, they should be worth it to sacrifice something to get them, else the weapons wouldn't even make it into the game.
If you think damage rate is the most important factor, then check the chart for the HMG. Does it give you an accurate figure of this weapon's power? Of course not. Yet a newbie designer might get the impression the HMG sucks bad and never use it. Now imagine what he'd be missing <img src="smile.gif" border="0">
BTW, mesons' damage rates are calculated with the external damage only, giving them really low rates. Full damage should be considered IMO.
Iceman
Ok, I'm seeing some disappointing statements here, some seem to be pure rebukes to my remarks but still they are serious enough to warrant a rebuke of my own.
Damage rate being the main aspect of titan design is pure cr@p. No1 in his right mind designs a titan to be the one that deals most d/s. If you did, then all titans would sport FTs and MGs like Jukka pointed out in an earlier post. Does that happen? No. Why? Because there's this little detail about the game called range. D/s means nothing if you don't have the range to use it, and the heat dissipation and available power to match. So *ALL* these factors are *MAIN* factors, with no single one being more important than the others. So if you're serious about titan design, you first check the role you want your titan to perform, then choose the weapons that match that role, then choose a nice balance between heat, damage, and recycle time (taking into consideration other aspects like scanning time and movement time). Available slots and tonnage will do the rest.
What usually chooses the heat reg for you is available slots, and not weapons' C/s.
I have to go now, but I'm not finished yet.
Damage rate being the main aspect of titan design is pure cr@p. No1 in his right mind designs a titan to be the one that deals most d/s. If you did, then all titans would sport FTs and MGs like Jukka pointed out in an earlier post. Does that happen? No. Why? Because there's this little detail about the game called range. D/s means nothing if you don't have the range to use it, and the heat dissipation and available power to match. So *ALL* these factors are *MAIN* factors, with no single one being more important than the others. So if you're serious about titan design, you first check the role you want your titan to perform, then choose the weapons that match that role, then choose a nice balance between heat, damage, and recycle time (taking into consideration other aspects like scanning time and movement time). Available slots and tonnage will do the rest.
What usually chooses the heat reg for you is available slots, and not weapons' C/s.
I have to go now, but I'm not finished yet.
Iceman