History Question

[BLUESBOB]

We always play a game looking at what's happening in our game in historical terms. Everything we do is compared to what actually happened in that time frame. Hence, when you come over to Big B's house you might hear things being said such as, "We had a "Savo Island" today", or "Midway" came six months too late". All of our play is done with an eye toward history, even if the things going on aren't following history.

Currently I have AP's and AK's sitting all over the place waiting to pick up troops and move them. I can't, because my political point situation sucks. My question, which is rather silly, is how do I look at political points with an eye toward history? I mean, in some situations I have ships and troops sitting less than a hundred miles from the enemy. Historically I'm sure the ships would want to leave...there's Bettys about. I'm sure the troops would want to leave...a native battalion has no chance against a crack Japanese division. So, what can I say to myself is happening? "Sorry, we can't move you yet, because we don't have the thumbs up from command." sounds lame when everything's in position and threatened.

I know...silly question. I can see that the political points serve a purpose, but they are also a hindrance to playing in a way different from what the Allies did historically. This might not even be a question...I may just be b*tching about what's going on in our current game.

[niceguy2005]

So you want to evacaute the PI army before they get crushed by Japan? [;)]

[BLUESBOB]

I actually had ships at Cebu and Iloilo for a couple of days. I was going to pick up the 61st and 81st P.A. divisions. That might not seem remarkable, but those ships already dropped off troops from Manila at Balikpapan and went back. Not an easy thing to do at times. Then I did the math and realized they would have to sit and wait for an additional twelve days before I could do anything with them. AND, in the meantime nothing else in the P.I. or the ABDA can move.

The whole situation can lead to a lot of frustration.

[rockmedic109]

I am not sure, but would some of those units want to stay? If they were raised as a unit on Cebu, would they want to be thrown into the line at Bataan or would they rather stay on their home island?

Militarily, they would be better served on Luzon but it Mac pulled all the troops from the other islands and left them defenseless, could he count on their support later in the war?

I leave them where they are. Force the Japanese to actually invade the islands rather than have them automatically change over to Japanese rule. Slows the Japanese down.

[Kwik E Mart]

not allowing a player to "denude" the philipines (as an example) is exactly the intent of the political points system...one factor that cannot be simulated any other way in this game is the political pressure exerted to carry out one strategy versus another...it would be like macarthur deciding he was going to leave the PI with his army against the wishes of the supreme commander in chief, who might feel (rightly or wrongly) that leaving the PI would be a cowardly or un-ally like move to the rest of the world...

having said all that, it's beyond my comprehension why a toggle was not included to turn the PP system off for players like yourself that want to explore the "what if"'s of this war...[8|]

[panda124c]

ORIGINAL: BLUESBOB

We always play a game looking at what's happening in our game in historical terms. Everything we do is compared to what actually happened in that time frame. Hence, when you come over to Big B's house you might hear things being said such as, "We had a "Savo Island" today", or "Midway" came six months too late". All of our play is done with an eye toward history, even if the things going on aren't following history.

Currently I have AP's and AK's sitting all over the place waiting to pick up troops and move them. I can't, because my political point situation sucks. My question, which is rather silly, is how do I look at political points with an eye toward history? I mean, in some situations I have ships and troops sitting less than a hundred miles from the enemy. Historically I'm sure the ships would want to leave...there's Bettys about. I'm sure the troops would want to leave...a native battalion has no chance against a crack Japanese division. So, what can I say to myself is happening? "Sorry, we can't move you yet, because we don't have the thumbs up from command." sounds lame when everything's in position and threatened.

I know...silly question. I can see that the political points serve a purpose, but they are also a hindrance to playing in a way different from what the Allies did historically. This might not even be a question...I may just be b*tching about what's going on in our current game.

Consider PP's to be the effort that it takes to get politicians off their collective a**'s to allow the military to react.
"Oh no we can't let our troops in Sinapore leave, the impact on the moral of the people back home will be adversly effected."
"Bunch of silly wogs, they will never take Hong Kong."
"The Philliphines are the bastion of American defence, we can't just abandon it!"

[Big B]

ORIGINAL: pbear

Consider PP's to be the effort that it takes to get politicians off their collective a**'s to allow the military to react.
"Oh no we can't let our troops in Sinapore leave, the impact on the moral of the people back home will be adversly effected."
"Bunch of silly wogs, they will never take Hong Kong."
"The Philliphines are the bastion of American defence, we can't just abandon it!"

Well, to me personally - while I can see PPs as a crude but effective way to stop a player from abandoning a country - the side affects that become unrealistic to me are two fold.

1) It keeps a player in a remote outpost like the PI, or DEI from mounting an EFFECTIVE defense of said teritory - because unlike aircraft in a Restricted Command the gound units CANNOT paddle over to the next island where they are really needed and have a chance to contribute. (unless you are playing RHS which seems to have a lot of ferry points between islands - brilliant!)

2) Once you have decided to evacuate some place - which was historically done A LOT in the early phase of the War in the Pacific - unless you have enough PPs saved up - you set around with Large Targets painted on your ships and troops because "well men - we were 2 PPs short to get the entire unit out today...we'll just wait for tomorrow and the Bettys to show up - when we could have left days ago".

Neither of those circumstances above seems realistic to me.

My two cents.... B

[Mike Scholl]

The real problem here is what is restricted and where. No way was Manuel Quizon going to allow the Phillipines Army to be shipped off to defend Dutch Holdings in Borneo. This is absolutely correct, and why PP's need to be in the game. But Matrix, in it's "infinate wisdom", also makes you pay the same PP's to move Phillipines Army Units from Davao to Manilla (one part of the Phillipines to another part of the Phillipines). Which is truely assinine. The Dutch have the same problem..., they have to pay PP's to move Dutch units from one part of the Dutch East Indies to another.

[Big B]

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

The real problem here is what is restricted and where. No way was Manuel Quizon going to allow the Phillipines Army to be shipped off to defend Dutch Holdings in Borneo. This is absolutely correct, and why PP's need to be in the game. But Matrix, in it's "infinate wisdom", also makes you pay the same PP's to move Phillipines Army Units from Davao to Manilla (one part of the Phillipines to another part of the Phillipines). Which is truely assinine. The Dutch have the same problem..., they have to pay PP's to move Dutch units from one part of the Dutch East Indies to another.

That is preceisly what I meant in case #1 above...but you phrased it better.[;)]
B

[kbad]

Hey Big B

I feel your pain. I sure would like to be able to move China Command units from one chinese port to another by ship. Oh well back to my map of soon to be former British colonies.

[BLUESBOB]

ORIGINAL: kbad

Hey Big B

I feel your pain. I sure would like to be able to move China Command units from one chinese port to another by ship. Oh well back to my map of soon to be former British colonies.

Go back to your ramen factory! Allied troops will be having liberty in the Ginza by spring!!!

[Mike Scholl]

ORIGINAL: Big B

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

The real problem here is what is restricted and where. No way was Manuel Quizon going to allow the Phillipines Army to be shipped off to defend Dutch Holdings in Borneo. This is absolutely correct, and why PP's need to be in the game. But Matrix, in it's "infinate wisdom", also makes you pay the same PP's to move Phillipines Army Units from Davao to Manilla (one part of the Phillipines to another part of the Phillipines). Which is truely assinine. The Dutch have the same problem..., they have to pay PP's to move Dutch units from one part of the Dutch East Indies to another.

That is preceisly what I meant in case #1 above...but you phrased it better.[;)]
B

Please feel free to borrow the word "assinine" whenever you are trying to describe some of 2by3's more absurd design decisions...., it will make the task ever so much easier.

[wdolson]

ORIGINAL: Kwik E Mart

not allowing a player to "denude" the philipines (as an example) is exactly the intent of the political points system...one factor that cannot be simulated any other way in this game is the political pressure exerted to carry out one strategy versus another...it would be like macarthur deciding he was going to leave the PI with his army against the wishes of the supreme commander in chief, who might feel (rightly or wrongly) that leaving the PI would be a cowardly or un-ally like move to the rest of the world...

having said all that, it's beyond my comprehension why a toggle was not included to turn the PP system off for players like yourself that want to explore the "what if"'s of this war...[8|]

Of course, if you wanted to simulate some "what if" situations, you could use the scenario editor to give one side or the other a large chunk of PP at the beginning of the campaign and save it as an experimental scenario.

Bill

[timtom]

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl
The real problem here is what is restricted and where. No way was Manuel Quizon going to allow the Phillipines Army to be shipped off to defend Dutch Holdings in Borneo. This is absolutely correct, and why PP's need to be in the game. But Matrix, in it's "infinate wisdom", also makes you pay the same PP's to move Phillipines Army Units from Davao to Manilla (one part of the Phillipines to another part of the Phillipines). Which is truely assinine. The Dutch have the same problem..., they have to pay PP's to move Dutch units from one part of the Dutch East Indies to another.

Agree and think this adds to the problem of the Japanese player knowing the Allied Dec. 7 OOB down to the last bullet.

I'd like to unrestrict both ABDA and USAFFE, but play with a houserule that forbids the deployment of their forces outside of the DEI/PI respectively without paying PP's.

I'm guessing that whether a HQ is restricted or not is tied to the slot it occupies. Hence moving the ABDA and USAFFE HQ's to different slots ought unlock them. This also raises the possibility of moving Malaya HQ to one of the now vacant restricted slots if that is desired.

I'm only guessing and don't really know what effect such fiddling will have, but I'll try it out.

[Raverdave]

ORIGINAL: timtom

I'd like to unrestrict both ABDA and USAFFE, but play with a houserule that forbids the deployment of their forces outside of the DEI/PI respectively without paying PP's.

I'm guessing that whether a HQ is restricted or not is tied to the slot it occupies. Hence moving the ABDA and USAFFE HQ's to different slots ought unlock them. This also raises the possibility of moving Malaya HQ to one of the now vacant restricted slots if that is desired.

I'm only guessing and don't really know what such fiddling will have, but I'll try it out.

And The Aust Command as well. It is crazy that I have to pay PPs to send Aussie troops to PM, or even to get them shipped from Tassie.[8|]

[timtom]

ORIGINAL: timtom

Agree and think this adds to the problem of the Japanese player knowing the Allied Dec. 7 OOB down to the last bullet.

I'd like to unrestrict both ABDA and USAFFE, but play with a houserule that forbids the deployment of their forces outside of the DEI/PI respectively without paying PP's.

I'm guessing that whether a HQ is restricted or not is tied to the slot it occupies. Hence moving the ABDA and USAFFE HQ's to different slots ought unlock them. This also raises the possibility of moving Malaya HQ to one of the now vacant restricted slots if that is desired.

I'm only guessing and don't really know what effect such fiddling will have, but I'll try it out.

Provisionally it seems to work okay. All the bases, LCU's and LBA's have to reset to the new HQ, otherwise they think they're Japanese. I had some trouble convincing the good people at Asiatic Fleet and their subordinate units that they aren't sons of Nippon - in the end shifting Asiatic Fleet to another slot woke them up.

The only downside is that it is now impossible to assign units to USAFFE during the game, not that I can think why anyone would do that. Allied units, it appears, can only be reassigned to HQ's occupying slots 100-110, which is were all the big ones sit (SWPAC, SOPAC etc).

My main worry now is whether the combat/supply effects associated with a command HQ actually works as advertised, ie is effectuated by HQ type as defined in the editor, or whether it is actually down to the slot occupied by the HQ.

[Panther Bait]

How about a system where a player could "buy" additional political points at a cost in victory points to his opponent.  Sort of a political "ok I'll approve your request to move those troops, but it better work" type of situation.  I am not sure what the ratio of PPs to VPs would be off-hand, but it should be something that painlessly permits the "damn, I'm 2 points short to move this unit" situation, but makes the "I think I will move the Phillipine Army to DEI" an expensive proposition.
 
I realize that would probably require code changes, but it might be a reasonable thing to implement without wholesale changes to the PP system.

[SireChaos]

ORIGINAL: Panther Bait

How about a system where a player could "buy" additional political points at a cost in victory points to his opponent.  Sort of a political "ok I'll approve your request to move those troops, but it better work" type of situation.  I am not sure what the ratio of PPs to VPs would be off-hand, but it should be something that painlessly permits the "damn, I'm 2 points short to move this unit" situation, but makes the "I think I will move the Phillipine Army to DEI" an expensive proposition.

I realize that would probably require code changes, but it might be a reasonable thing to implement without wholesale changes to the PP system.

That, or a system where the player gets additional PPs for certain achievements - like 1 PP per Jap plane shot down while the Zero bonus lasts, 1 PP per VP scored for sinking carriers, PPs for holding bases way past the date they historically fell... somethign like that. That would simulate that political leaders are far more likely to allow a successful commander to do things the way he wants than a less sucessful one.

[Big B]

ORIGINAL: kbad

Hey Big B

I feel your pain. I sure would like to be able to move China Command units from one chinese port to another by ship. Oh well back to my map of soon to be former British colonies.

I hope your Holiday Snaps of your new resort town of Hong Kong turn out well!! [:@] [:D]

[msaario]

Isn't this one of those things where the only way to make a "historical" game (sorry for the bad choice of words) is to randomize things a lot. After all you want to evacuate PI because you know the Juggernaut is coming. Did the troops at the time know that? I suppose no, otherwise they would have run away.

So, you want fog of war: randomize the strengths, ships, ACs, AC data (meaning you don't really know until you've fought them that the enemy a6mXX is better than your Brewster), troops etc. Yeah, no historical or excel-sheet optimized initial deployment here but a hell of a game for both sides.

You just would not know the enemy (in any shape unless what the Intel gives you) - you'd have to learn it (like in the real life).

--Mikko