Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion

[Greyshaft]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

I don't think that modifying Denmark in any way will be welcomed by any WiF FE player. [:-]
This is a very bad idea, as Denmark sees a lot of action (mainly allies trying to open a new front in Europe by the side door), and crowded as it is already it will not be seen with a good eye if it is modified. I for one, hate this.

I agree with Froonp on this point. Every WiF player has their favorite strategies and (IMHO) their first half dozen games of MWiF will be spent in trying out those strategies. Makes sense that when you are trying out a new environment (MWiF) you use the Test Plans that have worked so well for you in the past. If there are changes to the map then someone's Test plans will not work and they'll badmouth the game on that basis. I know the Pacific needed to be significantly changed because of map scale but I think Europe should stay the same as cardboard WiF.

... unless it is essential for some coding reason

... or unless it is to fix a previously acknowledged error which has broad community approval

... or unless I personally request the change [:D]

[Froonp]

To tell you the truth Greyshaft (welcome back [:D]), a couple of bordermap European Map areas (at least 3 that I remember without thinking) were twicked a bit during my review, during your absence, we'll see if you find them [:D]

But these were really unimportant places that were badly done in the first place on the paper map to be able to be packed in the map.

Having MWiF was a chance to make these area more real.

[coregames]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

I don't think that modifying Denmark in any way will be welcomed by any WiF FE player. [:-]

I agree; parts of the map already at the European scale should not be changed, even for increased realism. The market for this game will at first be veteran WiF players, and their reaction will be the impetus for further success with a wider customer base.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: coregames

ORIGINAL: Froonp

I don't think that modifying Denmark in any way will be welcomed by any WiF FE player. [:-]

I agree; parts of the map already at the European scale should not be changed, even for increased realism. The market for this game will at first be veteran WiF players, and their reaction will be the impetus for further success with a wider customer base.

Ok. We'll stick with the status quo.

[composer99]

Although I am more sympathetic to Norden's desire to see Denmark more accurately portrayed than perhaps Patrice is [:'(][:D], from the perspective of gameplay I would be inclined to agree that no changes should be made to Denmark.

[Norden_slith]

Well, it hurts the Eye, these ADG people must have used a Mercator centered around Australia to produce this Denmark. [:D]
 
Sooo, we have a game that has changed a 100 times in order to get it more realistic, but the map is holy script? Yes, people have favored tactics, sure, until the next rule-change comes along, that is.
 
I'm living in Kopenhagen and come from Flensburg, a mile south of Denmark. What Im trying to say is: I hope they butcher your home too! [;)]
Look at Jutland, it looks like the waterlevel raised 10 meters!
 
Norden

[Neilster]

ORIGINAL: Norden
Look at Jutland, it looks like the waterlevel raised 10 meters!

At the rate the Greenland and Antarctic icecaps are melting, this may well be an accurate depiction of Denmark soon. [:'(]

Cheers, Neilster

[Norden_slith]

True, but in 1940 theres still some 65 years at least.

Norden

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Norden

True, but in 1940 theres still some 65 years at least.

Norden

My main problem with changes is that it is difficult to build a house on shifting sands. I have solidified as much as possible in regard to map, units, and rules. Indeed, that was the very first thing I did before signing a contract with Matrix to honcho this project. Now, there were some open issues: PBEM for instance. And the map.

It's the transition from the 5 maps in WIF FE at different scales to the unified world map at European scale that has been my biggest headache. Or you can say that problems are opportunities, and therefore this has been my biggest delight (though you would be wrong about that[;)]).

So, with Patrice taking the lead, we have been reviewing the entire map - except the European portion which was transferred over intact from WIF FE. The sole except has been a couple of hexes in Sweden and Norway that warranted correction when the rest of those countries were linked up at the European scale.

I would say that the changes to Sweden, Norway, and Finland have consumed as much time and effort as the complete revamping of China - which grew in size times 6. At all times, we have been especially paranoid about distorting the game play from WIF FE. We check and recheck and ask for opinions of all the forum members. I doubt that we will get it perfectly correct, but that won't be from lack of honest effort on the part of numerous serious players.

There is also this desire to finish the game before most of us die from natural causes. At many points along the trail I have simply said 'No' and moved on. I am sure that everyone has at least one place where they are convinced I have made a bad decision. That can't be helped, so I do not lose any sleep over it. The analogy I maintain about the project is moving a reluctant and often stubborn elephant down a path that he does not want to take - trying to avoid the droppings as I go.

[Norden_slith]

Hi Steve,
say what time is it, where you are right now?

I hear you and you are right, of course. Simple fact is, I'd love to say to my fellow gamers some day (in Denmark) "look what I did", you know how it is... [:)]

So, yes, finish it and never mind the many, many differing oppinions. Starting to correct Europe would be a pandoras box...
as has been said before.

Come to think of it, maybe it is because Im a geographer looking at his home btw...

Norden

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Norden
Hi Steve,
say what time is it, where you are right now?

I hear you and you are right, of course. Simple fact is, I'd love to say to my fellow gamers some day (in Denmark) "look what I did", you know how it is... [:)]

So, yes, finish it and never mind the many, many differing oppinions. Starting to correct Europe would be a pandoras box...
as has been said before.

Come to think of it, maybe it is because Im a geographer looking at his home btw...

Norden

I believe that Hawaii is either 11 or 12 hours earlier than Paris, depending on Day Lights Saving Time (which Hawaii doesn't observe). Europe's evening is Hawaii's morning of the same day.

[Plainian]

Norden I wouldn't feel too bad about Denmark.&nbsp;Scotland in WIF FE is pretty awful as well! Maybe there is a conspiracy against small countries! <g>
However best keep the lid on Mrs P's box.
&nbsp;
Ian from 'bonnie' Dundee...

[Norden_slith]

ORIGINAL: Plain Ian

Norden I wouldn't feel too bad about Denmark. Scotland in WIF FE is pretty awful as well! Maybe there is a conspiracy against small countries! <g>
However best keep the lid on Mrs P's box.

Ian from 'bonnie' Dundee...

Hi Ian,
maybe we should make a club the "COGCMEC" or "club of geographically challenged minor European countries". [:D] Cant remember the map, but I guess Greece is a candidate for membership. Also countries with no coastlines like Luxenburg (probably a single hex) might be interested!

[Plainian]

I think the COGCMEC Club would be a pretty small club.....2 members. Plus since there is an obvious conspiracy nobody would like us! <BG> By the way&nbsp;I had a go at making up a better map of Scotland in PS Pro. It was actually harder than I thought. I do not envy Froonp's job of converting the other maps!
&nbsp;
After&nbsp;my attempt&nbsp;I then realised that the WIF FE map wasn't too bad after all! Will post my map when I find out how you do this. If there are any more Scottish lurkers then they can criticise.
&nbsp;
Apologies for side tracking the discussion on Scandanavia. &nbsp;

[Shannon V. OKeets]

Here is a tease. The new coastal bitmaps for Scandinavia have arrived.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

Ok. Here is the real deal. This is still a little rough around the edges. But not bad for a first pass.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

Narvik to Lulea to Petsamo. I am testing a new color for the rivers. It is darker and matches the swamp color more closely. The river names are still using the old color (a brighter blue). If you look closely you will see that some of the tips of the lakes are missing. That is my fault. I need to add to list of the hexes that have river/lake graphics, even though they do not have rivers or lakes are far as game play is concerned.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

Murmansk to Archangel with the Kola Peninsula and most of Karelia.

I need to fix the join between the coastal hexes and the all sea hexes. There is a black edge being given to the coastal hexes. It shouldn't be there, instead the coastal hex color should blend smoothly into the all sea hexes.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

The Baltic (I guess we should add the name a second time for the northern portion) and the lakes of Finland.

Lakes Lagoda and Onega need work. There is also the problem around Aland and Turku.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

Last in the series. We are having a problem where the European map joins the Scandinavian map. This area received a lot of discussion in the forum and we will straigten it out. The problem is merely one of getting the graphics to look right - we already are completely decided on what the terrain features will be for game play.

We have some of the old river hexes still being drawn though the river bitmaps are in place (Dalalven). That is almost certainly a data problem.

If you look closely at Lake Vattern, you can see the two colors for the river/lake outlines. I think I prefer the new one (darker blue) that Rob suggested.