Swordfish not TB in RHS?

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: Mike Tremblay

While it is true that the Swordfish was relegated to ASW duties, I can only find that this was done after the famous 'Channel Dash' of the Scharnhorst and Gneisnau. This occurred in February, 1942. Since between the time the Swordfish was relegated to ASW duties and it was replaced by the Albacore and Avengers in frontline duty later in 1942, the RN only encountered the IJN once where the Swordfish could have been used in a Torpedo-bomber role. At that time, April 1942, HMS Hermes' squadron of Swordfish was ashore in Ceylon and was out of the action. Conceivably, if they were able, they would have been used as Torpedo-bombers, not as ASW aircraft or for firing rockets since they weren't fitted out for rockets until 1943. Thus, instead of reclassing the Swordfish as a level bomber, you should leave it as a torpedo-bomber because, as Spence points out

ORIGINAL: spence

Frankly I don't see the Royal Navy or any other Navy arming its principle strike aircraft (no matter how obsolete) with a weapon that can not inflict serious harm on an armored enemy warship. I have no doubt that the Swordfish was relegated to non-front line service at some point and modified to carry other weaponry (thereby making it unsuitable for the torpedo bomber role). But not until some delivery system for 'real' warship-killers arrived.

Instead, you should be probably think about changing the replacement date with Albacores or Avengers since these historically did come sooner than the stock database provides for and they are the correct historical replacements for the Swordfish.

Actually, I found the state of FAA aircraft in CHS a mess - and I sorted it out - more than once. I needed help - and found it in this Forum. I have great sympathy with anyone who tries to do this right too: the FAA changed so many things that it is a bloddy nightmare trying to represent it in a system where we cannot disband, reform, and reequip over and over again - not to mention change ships six times or so. As a result of two major and two minor reviews, EVERY aircraft arrival date WAS examined in scholorly sources - and many if not all were changed to ENTRY to PTO date - some changed more than once due to feedback from this Forum. Whatever the date the Albacores or Avengers - or any other plane may be - it is its real date of arrival for ops in PTO - to such a standard you can use the database as a fine reference. I will not allege it is perfect - but it is very good - and any time anyone produces hard data that is better about any particular case - it will - as always in RHS - be instantly adopted. I do not "own" the planes "I did" - I do not get offended when they change - and we do not play games of that sort in this club.

Since the Swordfish were regarded by Admiral Coyningham (sp?) as a tactical advantage - because of their radar -
and since they were NOT his strike planes - it would not be right to change them. I believe you will find there are other strike aircraft in theater and/or arriving in theater - and that the Hermes was no longer regarded as a strike carrier at all. She was greatly reduced in capacity from just a few years before - the capacity in RHS is official for the planes carried - and she was outfitted exclusively with Swordfish with ASW weapons because she didn't need - and could not operate - a sufficient number of these plus fighters. She was - to all intents and purposes - an ASW carrier - although I don't think the term existed yet. But with radar equipped planes she could serve as "eyes of the fleet" in a sense better than most big carriers could do.

[m10bob]

Here is some of the info Sid used.(Look under aircraft tab)



http://www.fleetairarmarchive.net/Ships/Index.html


In 1939 the RAF also trialed the Fairey Swordfish Mk I. Swordfish I L9770 was at Gibraltar dett 3 AACU from March 1939 thence sent to B Flight 202 squadron also at Gibraltar 27 October 1940. Five Mk I aircraft, P4026-P4030, were also delivered to Seletar in August 1939, they became part of B Flight Spotter Unit at RAF Seletar from 1 October 1939 and thence 4 AACU Seletar until March 1941.
After 1942 the Swordfish was replaced in its torpedo-bombing role by the Fairey Albacore, Fairey Barracuda and Grumman Avenger, and was employed in anti-submarine missions and was provided with a radar (Mk.III) and with air-surface rockets. However, even though the Fairey Albacore went into service early in the war, it proved little better than the Swordfish, which it was intended to replace. By this time, production of the Swordfish was moved to Blackburn Aircraft Limited, Sherburn-in-Elmet. The Swordfish was now equipped with ASV radar and rocket projectiles for anti-submarine operations. The Swordfish Mk II had wings with metal-skinned undersides and launching rails for eight 60lb rockets. The provision for a float undercarriage was deleted, and the more powerful Pegasus 30 engine installed. The Mk.III had ASV Mk.XI radar in a radome between the landing gear legs. This radar had a range of about 40km against ships, and in good conditions also against U-boats; but it would detect a Schnorkel only in very calm seas and at distances below 8km. Some Mk IIs and many Mk IIIs became Mk IVs when a cockpit canopy was installed.
After this time, Swordfishes operated from 14 escort carriers and 18 MAC (Merchant Aircraft Carrier) ships. MAC ships were converted oil tankers or grain ships, with a flight deck but minimal maintenance facilities, and the aircraft were continuously exposed to the often Arctic weather conditions. For operations from small flight decks with heavy loads, rocket-assisted take-offs were necessary.



The Albacore:


History

The Fairey "Albacore" was a single-engine biplane designed as a torpedo-spotter reconnaissance aircraft to specification S.41/36. It was a all-metal monocoque fuselaged biplane, with wings braced with wire and covered with fabric. It also had an heated enclosed cabin and was nicknamed the "Applecore" and regarded pleasant to fly.
Two protypes were constructed, the first prototype L7074 first flew on 12 December 1938. Fairey subsequently built 803 Albacore, and it was planned to be a successor to the Fairey Swordfish. The Albacore was first delivered to the Royal Navy on 15 March 1940. By 1942 there were 15 Fleet Air Arm squadrons equipped with the Albacore, several of them shore-based in North Africa. The main use of the Albacore was in coastal operations, the aircraft usually operating singly at night.
The Albacore was retired before the Swordfish, and started to be replaced from 1942 by the Fairey Barracuda and Grumman Avenger. With it no longer being used in operational squadrons, the Albacore was put to other uses. The last 400 built some were used to equip second line sqiuadrons especially in the Middle East to Aden and Khormaksar, and Hal Far in Malta, South Africa at Wingfield, East Africa including Tanga, and RNARY Nairobi, as well as Coimbatore, and Trinidad. They were by this time used also for specialist services. For example, X8967 was used in the East Africa Anti Locust flight (ME) from 8 June 1945 at Nairobi, and Juba. Many of these last 400 were subsequently equipped to the RAF 1944-1946.

The Albacore was also used by the other services. The Albacore being equipped to the Royal Canadian Navy (RCN), the first to the RCN being in May 1943 (eg X8947, X8952 etc ). It also was equipped to the RAF and RCAF, first being L7080 to 415 squadron, for use in coastal operations, the Albacore breing equipped to 415 squadron till June 1944 (eg X8940). The Albacore also saw service with 36 squadron from January 1942 (eg T9135) and 119 squadron from July 1944 (eg T9150 and X8940). It was the last operational biplane to be used by the RCAF with 6 aircraft (1943-1949).

[Wallymanowar]

Listen, you want to believe that the British would have used the Swordfish on the Hermes primarily as ASW aircraft then that is fine, and it is probably accurate since Hermes' mission was convoy protection. But, rather than changing them to level bombers just assign them to an ASW mission all the time. The fact remains that, at this point in history, if they weren't acting as ASW aircraft carrying depth charges then they were torpedo bombers, not level bombers. The time that they will spend in theater, coupled with the chance that they would actually have to be used as torpedo-bombers, added to their vulnerability makes it highly unlikely that they would be able to make any difference.

[spence]

If you check this site; it is plain that the Swordfish I torpedo bomber continued in that role well into 1942 at least...it is also clear that FAA squadrons moved all over the place completely at variance with their "fixed" assignment in WitP and that a single squadron might operate more than one type aircraft simultaneously (such as 2 radar equipped Swordfish (spotters) and 9 Albacore I's (torpedo bombers)...[forgot which one but it doesn't appear to be in WitP at all but was operating from Formidable in the IO in early 42].

For each 800 series of squadron (WWII FAA) there is a brief and incomplete operational history (naming ships served in) and a list of what type a/c operated with dates.

http://www.fleetairarmarchive.net/Squadrons/815.html

[m10bob]

ORIGINAL: spence

If you check this site; it is plain that the Swordfish I torpedo bomber continued in that role well into 1942 at least...it is also clear that FAA squadrons moved all over the place completely at variance with their "fixed" assignment in WitP and that a single squadron might operate more than one type aircraft simultaneously
http://www.fleetairarmarchive.net/Squadrons/815.html

Really though Spence, if you want that kind of detail,(constant juggling of squadrons, for whatever motive, historical or otherwise), you might plan on rolling up your sleeves and getting dirty on that project yourself.
For game purposes, I'm fine with ANY contribution which will improve the game, but refuse to make the appearance of a near-demand.
You make that add-on for CHS, RHS, whatever, and I will add it my game...
Go for it![8D]

[spence]

I have no desire whatever to get involved with changing squadrons etc. In the game we're stuck with Swordfish for 1942...they were eventually relegated to ASW but the RN carriers in the IO had to have something better to attack IJN warships with than 2" rockets...obsolete or not they were able to carry torpedos at need because there was nothing better (well Albacores) available at the time.

[m10bob]

ORIGINAL: spence

I have no desire whatever to get involved with changing squadrons etc. In the game we're stuck with Swordfish for 1942...they were eventually relegated to ASW but the RN carriers in the IO had to have something better to attack IJN warships with than 2" rockets...obsolete or not they were able to carry torpedos at need because there was nothing better (well Albacores) available at the time.

Thank goodness..Partner, I was just thinking about all those individual squadron moves..Man. you would have to keep a running schedule of when you had to have a ship in port(or near one) to get all those squadrons exchanged in time.........[:D]

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: Mike Tremblay

Listen, you want to believe that the British would have used the Swordfish on the Hermes primarily as ASW aircraft then that is fine, and it is probably accurate since Hermes' mission was convoy protection. But, rather than changing them to level bombers just assign them to an ASW mission all the time. The fact remains that, at this point in history, if they weren't acting as ASW aircraft carrying depth charges then they were torpedo bombers, not level bombers. The time that they will spend in theater, coupled with the chance that they would actually have to be used as torpedo-bombers, added to their vulnerability makes it highly unlikely that they would be able to make any difference.

I can live with "and it is probably accurate." But note that we have severe restrictions in technical terms: we only get one weapons loadout to define. I will check - but I set it up so it would work in its real role - and not in a role it no longer was used in. It is true this is a marginal plane - but it also was felt to be a "secret" technical advantage by the RN commander on the scene - and I gave you the plane with its secrets so you can use it as he intended - and find out? However, I didn't try to give it in both roles - so I will check to see if there is a way to do that?

[el cid again]

[quote]ORIGINAL: spence

If you check this site; it is plain that the Swordfish I torpedo bomber continued in that role well into 1942 at least...

Which is a problem: once I define a plane and give it you - it will be that way even in 1945. We need the most general truth - not "it should be that way for a few weeks - then most of the war as something else." I felt it was NOT effective as a torpedo bomber- they were right - and it MIGHT BE as a radar plane to hurt things other than big targets. Use it right - you will hurt the enemy.

[el cid again]

[quote]ORIGINAL: spence

it is also clear that FAA squadrons moved all over the place completely at variance with their "fixed" assignment in WitP and that a single squadron might operate more than one type aircraft simultaneously (such as 2 radar equipped Swordfish (spotters) and 9 Albacore I's (torpedo bombers).

So why gripe to me about this? You got a way to write code for WITP? You got a way to use some secret command to boss the existing code? I think it is fine if a squadron changes planes - and to a degree we DO DO that - just not automatically - only under human control. I have to work within the system - and I think you should write in the context that you know that. I didn't write the code or design the system.

[spence]

In WitP no one is going to be using Swordfish as torpedo bombers from 1943 on because there is a much better replacement in the Avenger I.  In WitP it also seems one is stuck with Swordfish until 1943.  In many games the Japanese Player is going to make some kind of foray into the Indian Ocean in 1942, probably fairly early.  IRL Adm Somerville attempted (unsucessfully) to bring his carrier a/c into night action with the KB.  It is inconceivable that he would risk his whole fleet attempting to strike enemy warships with BB guns. 

In my recent reading on the Swordfish (some at least of the same sources as evidently led you to redefine the a/c as a level bomber) I found there were three Marks.

Mark I was the original torpedo bomber.
Mark II was the first conversion to an ASW platform.  Some type of not particularly great surface search radar was installed.  I didn't really get a feel for how the radar was mounted on the plane.
Mark III was an upgraded ASW platform with a better radar.  This one had a large radome between the landing gear which definitely prevented the a/c from carrying a torpedo.   The Mk III was put into production in late 42 or even early 43. 

Circumstantial evidence perhaps but a Coastal Command FAA Swordfish Squadron made a (suicidal it turned out) torpedo attack on Scharnhorst/Gneisenau in the English Channel in Feb 42.  They were probably Mk IIs in that their ordinary mission profile was patrol/ASW.

I certainly see no benefit in swapping squadron assignments and all that jazz.  Fixing the OOBs is a hard job since none of the participants made much effort to keep things simply for those who'd come after them.  The RN had some carrier type torpedo bombers assigned to its fleet carriers throughout the war.  In WitP we're stuck with Swordfish.  I really think you are making a mistake taking that role away from the aircraft in the early game (after 1942 there won't be any Swordfish in play anyways).

[el cid again]

If the Mark II is able to mount a torpedo - I assumed it was not - we do have a technical option to have our cake and eat it too:

I checked: A torpedo bomber can fly an ASW mission, and our rockets are not treated as bombs - but as guns - so the code won't ignore them if we specify them and a torpedo. [You cannot mix bombs and torpedos without killing the torpedos - but you can mix guns and our pseudo rockets with torpedos and the torpedo will work]. SO - pending verification of the ability to actually mount a torpedo on an ASW converted Swordfish - it looks like Version 5.12/6.12 will have this slightly modified plane. It also looks like it will work in either role. It may do better at leading other carrier bombers on air strikes - guiding them with its radar - the historical plan. I believe you will find you DO have real torpedo planes on RN ships FYI. Whatever you have - that is what was on the ships at time of entry to theater. I don't change them (except for plane upgrades) - but that is what was really sent.

[el cid again]

See the new thread Torpedo Bomber Issues for lots of news about four kinds of torpedo bombers - including three Allied carrier types and a Japanese land based one. Terrible what happens when you begin to dig...