Basically, commonwealth divisions had (potentially) the tactical flexibility (and limitations) of WWII German light/mountain/PG divisions (which were all administrative organisations for KGs).
No German division was an administrative organisation for KGs (at least if you mean Kampfgruppe with "KG"[&:]). Kampfgruppen were (always) ad-hoc formations without fixed staffs. German light/mountain/panzergrenadier divisions were not different (in this regard) from other German formations.
[The German Kampfgruppe probably is the most widely misunderstood military concept of WW2].
A student of German and the Whermacht, I confirm K on this one. Kampfgruppe means "battle group"
and it is an informal, tactical/operational formation, never a formal, administrative one. No exceptions.
Doesn't make linguistic sense in the context of WWII era WWII military jargon.
Basically, commonwealth divisions had (potentially) the tactical flexibility (and limitations) of WWII German light/mountain/PG divisions (which were all administrative organisations for KGs).
No German division was an administrative organisation for KGs (at least if you mean Kampfgruppe with "KG"[&:]). Kampfgruppen were (always) ad-hoc formations without fixed staffs. German light/mountain/panzergrenadier divisions were not different (in this regard) from other German formations.
[The German Kampfgruppe probably is the most widely misunderstood military concept of WW2].
From memory:
Die Panzer, Panzergrenadier, Infanterie (mot.), Leichte, Gebirgsjaeger, und Jaeger-divisionen habitually operated as a collection of regimental-level Kampfgruppen. That is, they were task-organised with divisional and regimental assets under the control of one of the *existing* operational headquarters within the division. Yes, they were ad-hoc in that their component elements were not fixed, but they were *not* ad-hoc in the sense of just being thrown together--their doctrine was very well thought out. The mid-war Panzerdivision was intended to operate as four KGs, each usually containing a Panzerabteilung, a mechanised Abteilung of some sort, a mechanised artillery Batterie, and etc (Guderian). That meant the Division had to have the assets to be able to organise four operational HQs to control those KGs. In normal operations and at normal strength, the PD actually operated three KGs, one consisting of a Panzerabteilung and the Aufklaerungsabteilung, one consisting of the other Panzer Abteilung and the half-track-mounted infantry Abteilung, and the third KG made up of the truck-motorised infantry Abteilungen, operating as a motorised infantry group. The operational headquarters were formed from the regimental staffs.
The mid-war Panzergrenadierdivision also operated in three such KG, but with one formed from the Sturmgeschuetzabteilung and the Aufklaerungsabteilung and the other two as motorised infantry groups. The Gebirgsjaegerdivision and Jaegerdivision operated as binary divisions, with two infantry groups, each with about half of the divisional assets in support. The Infanteriedivision functioned somewhat differently. Each Regiment contained the assets needed to form 2-3 battalion-sized KGs from its assets plus those provided by the division.
My books and papers are back in America, so some of this may be in error; however I did spend seven years as the chief systems engineer for a divisional-level command and control system, and how the divisions of different armies actually operated has always interested me. For the most part, the UK divisions were intelligently designed for KG-style operations, but their commanders and leadership cadres were not up to the task until midwar. Similarly, UK brigades did not have adequate headquarters assets for those operations until about 1943 or 1944. During 1944-1945, the 14th Army in Burma and the operations of *some* of the armoured divisions in NW Europe showed that the British Army could put on a show as good as that of the German Army in its hey day. In fact, it can be argued that high-tempo airmobile operations were first invented by Wingate in Burma during 1943-44 and then perfected by Slim and the British Fourteenth Army during 1944-45.
Cheers,
Harry Erwin
"For a number to make sense in the game, someone has to calibrate it and program code. There are too many significant numbers that behave non-linearly to expect that. It's just a game. Enjoy it." herwin@btinternet.com
In 1943, a standard British Infantry Division had:
3 Brigades each of 3 Bns
780 men per Bn in 4 Rifle Companies & a Weapons Company
Each Rifle Company had 9+ LMG (Bren) & 3 Mortars (2")
The weapons company had 2 Mortars (3") & 6 6pdr AT GUns
It had an AT Bn with 32 x 17pdr AT guns
An AA Bn with 54 x 40mm (Bofors) Guns
A Machine Gun Bn with 36 Vickers HMG
In total, 36 Rifle & 13 Weapons Companies, 18,347 men, 1011 pistols, 11,254 Rifles & Carbines, 6525 Machine Pistols (Sten and Thompson SMG) 1262 MG's, 283 light mortars (50-60mm) 60 medium Mortars (75-81mm), 16 Heavy Mortars (105-120mm) 436 AT Rockets (PIAT), 71 x 20mm AA, 36 x 40mm AA, 18 x 40mm SPAA, 72 x 25pdr GunHow, 78 x 6pdr AT & 32 x 17pdr AT
Source quoted is HF Joslen Orders of Battle Second World War.
Now how many Divs in the SEAC & SWPac were "Standard" and I believe this was a European standard.
Australian Divs had a MG & a Pioneer Bn attached, really they were Corps troops but there was one for each AIF Div so they tended to fight together.
It is impossible to try to lump all British/Indian units into a standard
Some independent Bdes had 4 Bns, some 2 Bns(50 Para), Some Divisions had 2 Bdes eg. 36 (Indian/British) Div had only 2 Bdes, 17 Indian Div had 2 at times, 4 at others.
El Cid mentions that the British Bde had no artillery, correct. A Brigade Group could be formed (like an RCT) which cauld have extra units such as Arty & Tanks attached.
The flexibility Slim gained was by making a Bde from Divisions "Airmobile" which enabled them to be lifted by Dakota into secured (well nearly secure) airfields rather than march the hundreds of miles.
From Defeat into Victory; p387
17th Division which was resting in Ranchi began to change into a mixed Animal & Mechanical transport organisation. All the Division except for one Brigade was to be completely mechanized. The remaining Bde was to be Air Transportable. Jeeps & 25pdrs were to be fitted with a narrower axle to enable loading into a Dakota.
The 5th Div was organized in the same wayv (Late 1944)
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Well - our game units have nothing like this OB.
And many are not British - but various Commonwealth formations.
Worse - what we really need to know is the state when the war began - not mid war. It might apply to some reinforcements - but by then the critical battles are over. What was in place when the IJA came? That is the question. I still suspect the game units are too weak in heavy weapons - but sometimes greatly overstrength in infantry squad counts.
And then there was the 14th Indian Infantry Division during the First Arakan Campaign... It maxed out at seven or eight brigades (all but one infantry, the other divisional artillery) during the early spring of 1943. Noel Irwin (Eastern Army Commander) stayed in operational command until it was an obvious fiasco, at which point, William Slim saved the bacon.
Harry Erwin
"For a number to make sense in the game, someone has to calibrate it and program code. There are too many significant numbers that behave non-linearly to expect that. It's just a game. Enjoy it." herwin@btinternet.com
Sid, You are not going to achieve the luxury of a single standard TO&E for Commonwealth units from Dec 41 to Aug 45.
They continually evolved, swapped or added Brigades as required
If you create a standard as at 12/41, its wrong by mid 43 and different in 1945.
The hard way out would be to create the Commonwealth forces at Brigade level, you can chop & change as you please then. In many cases it would be a more accurate way of portraying their use.
My simple way out would be to set them at the 3 Brigade standard, the Divs in Malaya with 2 Bdes, I would set up at 2/3rd strength. Would they have built up to full strenghth, we dont know. (PS 8 Aust Div has only 2 Bdes in Malaya and its other Bde (23rd) formed the "Bird Forces" on Timor, Ambon & Rabaul)
Also mentioned earlier is the structure of 2 Indian & 1 British Bn per Bde, so the Div would have 1/3rd of its squads as British, the remainder Indian.
HERWIN,
1) There were 9 Infantry Bdes in the First Arakan under 14 Div control, all Infantry. The Brits didnt form Artillery Bdes.
2) The Brigade Group, similar to a Wermacht Kampfgruppe(but more formal) fell out of favour with the demise of Auchinleck and the rise of Montgomery in August 42.
PS. On MG Bns in the Indian Divs, sadly my references dont mention them, though they existed, many Divs also gained a "HQ Defense" Bn, often of Indian State Forces troops who guarded the Div HQ without calling on the Bdes for help.
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ORIGINAL: JeffK
There were 9 Infantry Bdes in the First Arakan under 14 Div control, all Infantry. The Brits didnt form Artillery Bdes.
No, there were not/never 9 Infantry Bdes under 14th Div control at the same time. Irwin took (direct) command of 14th Div from 29th March to 3rd April 1943, after relieving the division commander, MG Lloyd. Irwin was (and remained) commander of Eastern Army. There were probably nine brigades under command of Eastern Army at this time (and thus under command of Irwin). A divisional HQ was not able to handle nine brigades + artillery and engineers.
Otherwise you're correct, there were no artillery brigades in the British Army (but the staff of the CRA functioned similar to a brigade staff and the CRA of a division was a Brigadier).
Sid, You are not going to achieve the luxury of a single standard TO&E for Commonwealth units from Dec 41 to Aug 45.
They continually evolved, swapped or added Brigades as required
If you create a standard as at 12/41, its wrong by mid 43 and different in 1945.
The hard way out would be to create the Commonwealth forces at Brigade level, you can chop & change as you please then. In many cases it would be a more accurate way of portraying their use.
My simple way out would be to set them at the 3 Brigade standard, the Divs in Malaya with 2 Bdes, I would set up at 2/3rd strength. Would they have built up to full strenghth, we dont know. (PS 8 Aust Div has only 2 Bdes in Malaya and its other Bde (23rd) formed the "Bird Forces" on Timor, Ambon & Rabaul)
Also mentioned earlier is the structure of 2 Indian & 1 British Bn per Bde, so the Div would have 1/3rd of its squads as British, the remainder Indian.
HERWIN,
1) There were 9 Infantry Bdes in the First Arakan under 14 Div control, all Infantry. The Brits didnt form Artillery Bdes.
2) The Brigade Group, similar to a Wermacht Kampfgruppe(but more formal) fell out of favour with the demise of Auchinleck and the rise of Montgomery in August 42.
PS. On MG Bns in the Indian Divs, sadly my references dont mention them, though they existed, many Divs also gained a "HQ Defense" Bn, often of Indian State Forces troops who guarded the Div HQ without calling on the Bdes for help.
I do not seek a "single standard" - tell me the standard at any time and I will use it for formations arriving at that time - the WITP system. I can modify them slightly - and upgrade weapons in a formation - to a degree (not completely under control or in the right time frame - but better than nothing.) What I need is data to work from.
I've seen figures ranging from seven to ten for the number of brigade HQs under the 14th Indian Infantry Division in early March 1943. Noel Irwin may have had a brilliant mind, but he didn't know how to fight a battle. Sure, there was only one main supply route and that had to be managed by a single HQ, but a division commander should be a bit more than the Army commander's puppet.
Something to remember is that the administrative organisation of a WWII division (i.e., who wrote each officer's performance evaluation) often didn't match its formal chain of command, how it really fought usually differed from both, and logistical relationships were often yet another system.
For example, the German Infanteriekorps was an operational command echelon--Infanteriedivisionen were directly supplied from Armee. Administration also bypassed Korps. The Korps formed Kampfgruppen from its assets, so that during operations, command relationships ignored the formal chain of command. Then the DivHQs were used operationally to control the KGs, not necessarily consisting of troops of their own division. It worked, but only because it was practiced enough to work out the kinks.
Harry Erwin
"For a number to make sense in the game, someone has to calibrate it and program code. There are too many significant numbers that behave non-linearly to expect that. It's just a game. Enjoy it." herwin@btinternet.com
In CHS - and therefore in RHS - a typical Empire unit starts as a brigade - but points at a division formation - which is at twice brigade strength. These units are all very understrength when the war begins - and they build towards two brigade divisions. In mechanical WITP British Empire divisions also broke into two brigades. I want to know if this is correct for PTO - and if not - what are the exceptions and what is the general case? Beyond that, I want to know when the divisions got a machine gun battalion - if they ever did?
The standard prewar Commonwealth infantry division consisted of three infantry brigades, each of three battalions, an MG battalion, a reconaissance battalion, and three small artillery regiments, each consisting of two 8-gun batteries. It was designed to hold a frontage of about 8 kilometers, with all three brigades in line, backed by a division stop line organised by the MG battalion. (The MG battalion had the necessary firepower but lacked the manpower to fully man the stop line.) Each brigade operated with two battalions forward in the MLR and one back in a second line, with the two batteries from the artillery regiment each supporting a battalion. The battalions consisted of four small infantry companies and a support company. The infantry companies were deployed two forward and two to the rear in the MLR. These divisions were fully motorised, mostly because there weren't enough suitable horses available in the Commonwealth for fifty infantry divisions. As noted before, this was an administrative organisation--the brigades were the operational units, and divisions controlled two or more brigades in combat. The division was the echelon that handled supply, and had an enormous motorised tail (except in the 14th Army, where Slim used animal and air transport extensively).
The armoured division was designed to support an infantry division in the assault, with an armoured brigade working with each of the two lead brigades. (The army tank brigades were actually trained for this mission, while the armoured brigades tended to be less professional.) Later the armoured division was reorganised to consist of an armoured brigade and a motor brigade, and operated as four balanced task forces.
The actual operational strength of infantry divisions varied a good deal. Slim usually assigned two brigades to a division in his operations. The transportation network in Burma was incredibly bad, so controlling and supplying more brigades was too much for a divisional line of advance.
Harry Erwin
"For a number to make sense in the game, someone has to calibrate it and program code. There are too many significant numbers that behave non-linearly to expect that. It's just a game. Enjoy it." herwin@btinternet.com
This isn't true Herwin: even years into the war (from UK point of view) the mg battalion was a CORPS asset - NOT divisional - according to an official US Army Manual intended to explain the British organization to US troops who needed to understand it. Some have said that by midwar this changed: OK - when? And did that apply to PTO?
Similarly a lot of OB researchers say PTO divisions had 2 brigades. Clearly there is at least some of this happening. I want to know if that is normal or exceptional, or changes over time? Ideally I want to know for each division.
PLEASE!
Detail which units you claim had 2 Brigades, below is the OOB of 14th Army in early 1945
[font="times new roman"]14 ARMY (BURMA)[/font]
[font="times new roman"]1945?[/font]
[font="times new roman"] [/font]
[font="times new roman"]XV CORPS[/font]
[font="times new roman"]5 INDIAN DIVISION[/font]
[font="times new roman"]9 BDE 2 West Yorkshire, 3/9 Jats, 3/14 Punjab[/font]
[font="times new roman"]123 BDE 2 Suffolks, 2/1 Punjab, 1/17 Dogra[/font]
[font="times new roman"]161 BDE 4 QORWK, 1/1 Punjab, 4/7 Rajput[/font]
[font="times new roman"]7 INDIAN DIVISON[/font]
[font="times new roman"]33 BDE 1 QRR, 4/15 Punjab, 4/1 Gurkha[/font]
[font="times new roman"]89 BDE 2 KOSB, 7/2 Punjab, 4/8 Gurkha[/font]
[font="times new roman"]114 BDE 1 SLI, 4/14 Punjab, 4/5 Gurkha[/font]
[font="times new roman"]25 INDIAN DIVISION[/font]
[font="times new roman"]51 BDE 8 Y & L, 17/5 Mahratta Lt Inf, 16/10 Baluch[/font]
[font="times new roman"]53 BDE 9 Y & L, 2/2 Punjab, 4/18 Royal Garwalhi Rifles[/font]
[font="times new roman"]74 BDE 6 OBLI, 14/10 Baluch, 3/2 Gurkha[/font]
[font="times new roman"]26 INDIAN DIVISION[/font]
[font="times new roman"]4 BDE 1 Wiltshire, 2/13 Frontier Force, 2/17 Rajputana[/font]
[font="times new roman"]36 BDE 8/13 Frontier Force, 5/16 Punjab, 1/8 Gurkha[/font]
[font="times new roman"]71 BDE 1 Lincolns, 5/1 Punjabs, 1/18 Royal Garwalhi Rifles[/font]
[font="times new roman"]36 BRITISH DIVISION[/font]
[font="times new roman"]29 BDE 1 Royal Scots Fusiliers, 2 Royal Welch Fusiliers, 2 East Lancs. 2 South Lancs.[/font]
[font="times new roman"]72 BDE 2 South Wales Borderers, 10 Gloucestershire, 9 Royal Sussex[/font]
[font="times new roman"] [/font]
[font="times new roman"]3 SPECIAL SERVICE (CDO) BDE[/font]
[font="times new roman"]5 Cdo[/font]
[font="times new roman"]44 (RM) Cdo[/font]
[font="times new roman"] [/font]
[font="times new roman"]81 WEST AFRICAN DIVISION[/font]
[font="times new roman"]5 WA BDE 5 Gold Coast, 7 Gold Coast, 8 Gold Coast[/font]
[font="times new roman"]6 WA BDE 4 Nigerian, 1 Gambia, 1 Sierra Leone[/font]
[font="times new roman"] [/font]
[font="times new roman"] [/font]
[font="times new roman"] [/font]
[font="times new roman"] [/font]
[font="times new roman"] [/font]
[font="times new roman"]IV CORPS[/font]
[font="times new roman"] [/font]
[font="times new roman"] [/font]
[font="times new roman"]CORPS TROOPS[/font]
[font="times new roman"]9 Jat MG Bn,15/11 Sikh, Chin Bn, 3 Assam Rgt, 4 Assam Rgt, Kalibahadur(Nepal)Rgt, Gwalior Infantry[/font]
[font="times new roman"]17 INDIAN DIV[/font]
[font="times new roman"]48 BDE 9 Border, 2/5 Gurkha, 1/7 Gurkha[/font]
[font="times new roman"]63 BDE 1/3 Gurkha, ¼ Gurkha, 1/10 Gurkha[/font]
[font="times new roman"]20 INDIAN DIV[/font]
[font="times new roman"]32 BDE 1 Northamptons, 9/14 Punjab, 3/8 Gurkha[/font]
[font="times new roman"]80 BDE 1 Devons, 9/12 Frontier Force, 3/1 Gurkha[/font]
[font="times new roman"]100 BDE 2 Border, 14/13 Frontier Force, 4/10 Gurkha[/font]
[font="times new roman"]23 INDIAN DIV[/font]
[font="times new roman"]1 BDE 1 Seaforth, 1/16 Punjab, 1 Patiala Inf[/font]
[font="times new roman"]37 BDE 3/3 Gurkha, 3/5 Gurkha, 3/10 Gurkha[/font]
[font="times new roman"]49 BDE 4/5 Mahratta Lt Inf, 6/5 Mahratta Lt Inf, 5/6 Rajputana[/font]
[font="times new roman"] [/font]
[font="times new roman"]50 PARA BDE 152 Indian Para Bn, 153 Gurkha Para Bn[/font]
[font="times new roman"]254 TANK BDE 3 Carabineers, 7 Cavalry, 150 RAC, ¾ Bombay Grenadiers[/font]
[font="times new roman"] [/font]
[font="times new roman"] [/font]
[font="times new roman"]XXXIII CORPS[/font]
[font="times new roman"] [/font]
[font="times new roman"]CORPS TROOPS[/font]
[font="times new roman"]1 Burma, 1 Chamar, a Assam, Shere(Nepal) Bn, Malindra Dal Rgt[/font]
[font="times new roman"] [/font]
[font="times new roman"]2 BRITISH INF DIV[/font]
[font="times new roman"]4 BDE 1 Royal Scots, 2 Royal Norfolk, 1/8 East Lanc Fusiliers[/font]
[font="times new roman"]5 BDE 7 Worcestershire Rgt, 2 Dorsets, 1 QO Cameron Highlanders[/font]
[font="times new roman"]6 BDE 1 Royal Welch Fusiliers, 1 Royal Berkshire, 2 Durham Lt Inf[/font]
[font="times new roman"] [/font]
[font="times new roman"]268 BDE 2/4 Bombay Grenadiers, 5/11 Bombay Grenadiers, 17/7 Rajputana[/font]
[font="times new roman"]LUSHAI 1 Royal Jats, 8/13 Frontier Force, 7/14 Punjab, 1 Bihar[/font]
[font="times new roman"] [/font]
[font="times new roman"] [/font]
[font="times new roman"]CHINDIT FORCE (3 INDIAN INF DIVISION)[/font]
[font="times new roman"]3 WA BDE 6 Nigerian, 7 Nigerian, 12 Nigerian[/font]
[font="times new roman"]14 BDE 1 Bedforshire & Hertfordshire, 7 Leicestershire, 2 Black Watch, 2 York & Lancs[/font]
[font="times new roman"]16 BDE 2 Queens R R, 2 Leicestershire, 45 Recce Rgt[/font]
[font="times new roman"]23 BDE 2 Duke of Wellingtons, 4 Border , 1 Essex[/font]
[font="times new roman"]77 BDE 1 Kings, 1 Lancashire Fusiliers, 1 Sth Staffords, 3/6 Gurkha[/font]
[font="times new roman"]111 BDE 2 Kings Own, 1 Camerons, ¾ Gurkha, 4/9 Gurkha[/font]
[font="times new roman"] [/font]
[font="times new roman"]U.S.A FORCES[/font]
[font="times new roman"]5307 Composite Unit(Provisional) (MERRIL’S MARAUDERS)[/font]
[font="times new roman"][/font]
[font="times new roman"]81 WA Division lost a Bde to the Chindits, 17 Indian had different Bdes rotate through, at times it had 16,48,63 or 99 Bdes assigned. 36 British Div had just evolved from being 36 Indian Div and lost a Bde in this process.[/font]
[font="times new roman"][/font]
[font="times new roman"]From elCid,[/font]
[font="times new roman"][font=verdana]This isn't true Herwin: even years into the war (from UK point of view) the mg battalion was a CORPS asset - NOT divisional - according to an official US Army Manual intended to explain the British organization to US troops who needed to understand it. Some have said that by midwar this changed: OK - when? And did that apply to PTO? [/font][/font]
[font="times new roman"][font=verdana][/font][/font]
[font="times new roman"][font=verdana]This book is therefore incorrect:[/font][/font]
[font="times new roman"][font=verdana][/font][/font]
[font="times new roman"][font=verdana]In the BEF in 1940 the following Divs had the following MG Bns[/font][/font]
[font="times new roman"][font=verdana]1st Div 2/Cheshire Rgt[/font][/font]
[font="times new roman"][font=verdana]2nd Div 2/Manchester Rgt[/font][/font]
[font="times new roman"][font=verdana]3rd Div 2/Middlesex Rgt[/font][/font]
[font="times new roman"][font=verdana]4th Div 2/Royal Northumberland Fusiliers[/font][/font]
[font="times new roman"][font=verdana]50th Div 4/Royal Northumberland Fusiliers[/font][/font]
[font="times new roman"][font=verdana][/font][/font]
[font="times new roman"][font=verdana]It appears that some Territorial Divs didnt have an MG Bn, but they didnt have Bde AT Coys either so probably had a different TOE.[/font][/font]
[font="times new roman"][font=verdana][/font][/font]
[font="times new roman"][font=verdana]At Alamein in late 42 the British Divs had an MG Bn, the Canadians had MG Bn, the EnZeds had an MG Bn. The Australians however had their MG Bn as Corps troops, though as mentioned, they basically were permanently attached[/font]
[/font]
[font="times new roman"][/font]
[font="times new roman"]The Australian Divisions all had at least 3 Brigades, at time extra Bdes were assigned especially in rear areas.[/font]
Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum
Again from elcid
In CHS - and therefore in RHS - a typical Empire unit starts as a brigade - but points at a division formation - which is at twice brigade strength. These units are all very understrength when the war begins - and they build towards two brigade divisions. In mechanical WITP British Empire divisions also broke into two brigades. I want to know if this is correct for PTO - and if not - what are the exceptions and what is the general case? Beyond that, I want to know when the divisions got a machine gun battalion - if they ever did
Again, please provide some detail for this.
MOST Commonwealth Divs start as Divisions, many at or near full strength.
Unless you are fixated on Malaya/Burma were using Bde sized units was the only way to show thier At start set-up.
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Under Command 14 Indian Infantry Div in March 1943 were
6 Br Bde
47,55,71,88,123 Indian Bdes
"Mayforce" (Bde size????)
1/7 Dogra Inf Bn
9 Jat MG Bn
130 Fd Rgt, 23 Mtn Rgt & 44 LAA
I thought 4 & 5 Br Bde had joined, 4 Indian Bde was there on 1/4/43 but other Bdes had departed.
K, you are correct, A div HQ couldnt control all of this, even on Salisbury Plains.
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Detail which units you claim had 2 Brigades, below is the OOB of 14th Army in early 1945
How is 1945 germane? It is not the case which most concerns me. It is not this army that faces the Centrafugal offensive of the IJA.
Tell me about 1941 and 1942.
And tell me why "divisions" in the game - ALL MODS - start as understrength brigades? I am trying to understand so we do it better - if it can be done better. Right now you start with one below strength brigade under the title division and it grows to two brigades. If that is wrong - why is it in CHS and stock and everything else - and inherited by RHS?
I bet it is NOT totally wrong - but I want to know when it changes and how? Tellimg me 1945 organization is not particularly useful - particularly since not one unit has an arrival in theater date. I can only use a 1945 organization if I know this is how the unit BEGAN in PTO - the standard is "you get the unit as it was when it entered ops in this theater" - not how it was some other time.
Again from elcid
In CHS - and therefore in RHS - a typical Empire unit starts as a brigade - but points at a division formation - which is at twice brigade strength. These units are all very understrength when the war begins - and they build towards two brigade divisions. In mechanical WITP British Empire divisions also broke into two brigades. I want to know if this is correct for PTO - and if not - what are the exceptions and what is the general case? Beyond that, I want to know when the divisions got a machine gun battalion - if they ever did
Again, please provide some detail for this.
MOST Commonwealth Divs start as Divisions, many at or near full strength.
Unless you are fixated on Malaya/Burma were using Bde sized units was the only way to show thier At start set-up.
I am reporting what is in the data set - a data set I did not create and only have added things to (like an Aussie para battalion). Look at Indian units in particular - they ALL have identical starting elements - but point at two different formations and have two different names: brigade and division. This seems peculiar to me.
This thread in particular shows the value of many heads contributing for a common goal.
Only when somebody prints information, is it possible for others to either verify or prove error.
Unfortunately (as in this case), while Sid had the dubious distinction of factually improving on past WITP versions, the "improvements" may not have been totally accurate, in every case. Nothing against Sid, (or past modders, though this point may sometimes be lost on we critics.)[:D]
