Speedy vs Fabertong - CAP levels - discussion

[Speedysteve]

Hi all,

I want to post this here since I want the best viewing and thoughts around.

I have just looked at the latest CR in our game and it seems like total strikes again:

Day Air attack on 5307th USA Regimental Combat Team, at 29,35

Japanese aircraft
N1K1-J George x 24

Allied aircraft
Corsair IV x 38
P-38J Lightning x 47

Japanese aircraft losses
N1K1-J George: 22 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
P-38J Lightning: 6 destroyed, 5 damaged

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on 5307th USA Regimental Combat Team, at 29,35

Japanese aircraft
Ki-45 KAIa Nick x 31

Allied aircraft
Corsair IV x 38
P-38J Lightning x 29

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-45 KAIa Nick: 22 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
P-38J Lightning: 1 destroyed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF, near Moulmein at 29,35

Japanese aircraft
G4M1 Betty x 14
G4M2 Betty x 31
Ki-44-IIb Tojo x 68
Ki-61 KAIc Tony x 77

Allied aircraft
Corsair IV x 38
P-38J Lightning x 9

Japanese aircraft losses
G4M1 Betty: 11 destroyed
G4M2 Betty: 25 destroyed
Ki-44-IIb Tojo: 68 destroyed
Ki-61 KAIc Tony: 72 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
Corsair IV: 5 destroyed, 9 damaged
P-38J Lightning: 12 destroyed

Allied Ships
CV Formidable
CV Illustrious
CV Victorious
CLAA Ceres

Aircraft Attacking:
1 x G4M2 Betty launching torpedoes at 200 feet
1 x G4M2 Betty launching torpedoes at 200 feet
1 x G4M1 Betty launching torpedoes at 200 feet
1 x G4M2 Betty launching torpedoes at 200 feet
3 x G4M2 Betty launching torpedoes at 200 feet
2 x G4M1 Betty launching torpedoes at 200 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on 5307th USA Regimental Combat Team, at 29,35

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zeke x 18

Allied aircraft
Corsair IV x 25
P-38J Lightning x 29

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M5 Zeke: 18 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
P-38J Lightning: 1 destroyed, 2 damaged

I don't want to trounce Fabertong without a chance of him hitting. What do you think should be my limit for CAP % from now on? 30%? 50%?

Do you think we should both implement levels of plan capacity on airfields - 50 per size?

Faber what do you think?

[DuckofTindalos]

I'd definitely say stacking limits are in order, but then to me, they always are. Size * 50 is a good rule of thumb.

[fabertong]

Speedy....I don't know....maybe this is accurate....as far as history is concerned.........47 allied fighters killing 170 jap. fighters.......if we exclude the bombers......the problem seems to be that even if I, or for that matter anyone......runs in sweeping groups....which also get slaughtered....there is no consideration that your(allied) airgroups must refuel....and therefore not every airstrike should be met by the full amount of CAP.........but this is what happens........and was the corsair really an X- wing fighter?............


Still this is a fresh wound...perhaps I'll be more sanguin about it come sunrise.......I'll fight to the end.....even if all it means is heaps of dead penguins..........................

[niceguy2005]

I have never seen results quite like that. I have to say it seems very ahistorical to me.

The first thought that jumps to mind is...are fabers pilots that bad? Or are Speedys that good?

Not sure what to suggest. Some sort of CAP limit could be in order, but then when you fly an offensive mission all those fighters will fly as escort.

[fabertong]

I think that Speedy and I should carry on with the house rules we agreed at the start.....if only to explore what house rules are really important to achieve some sort of game stability...........after all early in the war I transfered some Manchurian troops without paying PP ( due to no house rule)....which allowed me early dominance in the theatre.....I would now always insist.....evan as a jap player ....that you must pay PPs for any units fro Manchuria....for good game balance.......

[wild_Willie2]

obiously a "stock" game.
 
CAP is way to deadly in stock, that is why I only play NIK mod with houserules
 ( 50 AC  per AF level is an important one) 

[Speedysteve]

Hi Niceguy - don't know on Faber's but my guys range from 68-85 Av. Experience. Interstingly from looking at kill stats it's the P38J's that racked the kills up not the Corsairs..............50th FG now has 321 kills![X(]
 
Hi Faber - I too have learnt future HE by playing but I think we NEED one for CAP % else you will never get through and it will be silly....I think we should play by 50 planes *AF size for starters. What do you think?
 
Hi WW - I know how Nikmod plays. I play it against Nik. What % do you think is best for stock - 30%? 50% on CAP
 
Others - what CAP % do you recommend in stock to prevent Total CAP(note I deliberately do not call it UBER CAP)?[;)]

[wild_Willie2]

An airstrike against concentrated allied CV's is ALWAYS costly. I tried a 70% CAP rule under NIKmod once, but the allied radar intercept bonus and post 43 intercept bonus completely NEGATE that 70% rule.
 
My 200 zero, 200 betty airstrike from Rabaul ran into a 350 wildcat CAP and got 2 mesely hits for 2/3 of my planes lost in a late 43 naval attack......
 
 
I think that even under NIKmod that a max 30-40% CAP rule should be considered.

[Ron Saueracker]

Well, as has been discussed many times before the main problem is that strikes and CAP are processed differently. All this combat occurs in a single hex. Strikes have to deal with all sorts of checks and penalties, like uncoordination, picking straws as to who will fly etc. CAP doesn't have these checks once aloft, it is just one big mindblowing hex blob which gets to attack everything...there is no attempt to model the fact that CAP really only can hope that a percentage of their number could intercept incoming strikes with this percentage being heavily dependent on Radar/Fighter Direction . But not only does CAP (UBER CAP, TOTAL CAP, CAP SHIELD, CRAP CAP etc) benefit from this advantageous imbalance, it also enjoys unlimited ammo, unlimited fuel, no launch maximums for CVs (all of which result in the fact that 100% of the aircraft assigned to CAP are aloft simukltaneously all the time), and the most brutal of all, the strike target selection and split point comes before CAP resoultion when it needs to come after, which basically allows the entire CAP a pass at each segment of the strike as it comes in on different targets in the same hex. Overall I'd guess that all these issues make CAP approximately 5 times too effective (10 times if Japanese as they have no Fighter Direction/Radar).

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: fabertong
.......I'll fight to the end.....even if all it means is heaps of dead penguins..........................

That the spirit! Defend Penguingrad at all costs!

[Onime No Kyo]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

ORIGINAL: fabertong
.......I'll fight to the end.....even if all it means is heaps of dead penguins..........................

That the spirit! Defend Penguingrad at all costs!

Not a waddle back? [&:][:D]

[fabertong]

I shall fight them on the iceburgs....I shall fight them on the tudra........etc......etc.....

Speedy......I'm happy to engage in any house rules you would like to add.......or continue as we are......as for the 50 per level airfield rule....I tend to play that anyway houserule or no.......

[mc3744]

Did the defending CAP have altitude advantage?
That usually increases quite a lot the losses of the side at disadvantage.

If the Japs pilots are below 70 exp I'm not too surprised.

Personally I sue the airfield size*50 in every game I play. It really improves the gaming experience, for both sides.
My two cents [:)]

[TimoN]

ORIGINAL: Speedy

Day Air attack on 5307th USA Regimental Combat Team, at 29,35

Japanese aircraft
N1K1-J George x 24

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on 5307th USA Regimental Combat Team, at 29,35

Japanese aircraft
Ki-45 KAIa Nick x 31

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF, near Moulmein at 29,35

Japanese aircraft
G4M1 Betty x 14
G4M2 Betty x 31
Ki-44-IIb Tojo x 68
Ki-61 KAIc Tony x 77


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on 5307th USA Regimental Combat Team, at 29,35

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zeke x 18

My question is how many of the fighters were on strike mission and was there any escorting fighters? Atleast those three strikes against 5307th RCT seem to be bombing missions done by fighters.

[Speedysteve]

Hi all,
 
Ok. From now on strict 50*AF size (have mainly been sticking to this anyway) but now it will be strict.
 
CAP level - How about we go for 40% CAP Faber?

[Mike Solli]

Hi guys,

I understand the reason for this discussion and agree too. I do have one concern though. CAP doesn't always fly. Example: I had 4 complete sentai of fighters in Rangoon (144 aircraft) set at 90% CAP. Their job in life was exclusively to protect Rangoon. The cowardly RAF decided to pay a visit. Not one of my fighters flew that day. When it was all said and done, over 120 fighters were destroyed and less than a dozen of the remaining were flyable.

This is the only reason why I have reservations on limiting CAP %.

[fabertong]

ORIGINAL: TimoN

ORIGINAL: Speedy

Day Air attack on 5307th USA Regimental Combat Team, at 29,35

Japanese aircraft
N1K1-J George x 24

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on 5307th USA Regimental Combat Team, at 29,35

Japanese aircraft
Ki-45 KAIa Nick x 31

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF, near Moulmein at 29,35

Japanese aircraft
G4M1 Betty x 14
G4M2 Betty x 31
Ki-44-IIb Tojo x 68
Ki-61 KAIc Tony x 77


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on 5307th USA Regimental Combat Team, at 29,35

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zeke x 18

My question is how many of the fighters were on strike mission and was there any escorting fighters? Atleast those three strikes against 5307th RCT seem to be bombing missions done by fighters.

All the fighters listed here were on sweep missions...................not bombing............

[fabertong]

ORIGINAL: Speedy

Hi all,

Ok. From now on strict 50*AF size (have mainly been sticking to this anyway) but now it will be strict.

CAP level - How about we go for 40% CAP Faber?

Great.....let's see what happens with this...........and remain flexible if this doesn't seem to balance out........

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: wild_Willie2

An airstrike against concentrated allied CV's is ALWAYS costly. I tried a 70% CAP rule under NIKmod once, but the allied radar intercept bonus and post 43 intercept bonus completely NEGATE that 70% rule.

My 200 zero, 200 betty airstrike from Rabaul ran into a 350 wildcat CAP and got 2 mesely hits for 2/3 of my planes lost in a late 43 naval attack......


I think that even under NIKmod that a max 30-40% CAP rule should be considered.

Or a max plane per sea hex rule. If you have a max plane per land hex rule why shouldn´t that go for sea hexes either? One is only allowed to place 500 planes at Tokyo (size 10) but the other comes in with 15 Essex carriers to pound it = 1350 planes.... [:-]

[Feinder]

What's the date? and the exp level of the Japanese planes?
 
In my '45 game vs. Oli, I would -routinely- lose 300+ aircraft against TF-58 (about 60 F6F as CAP).  Maybe 100 planes get thru, and then no hits.  As in, losses not just occurring once.  But on about 4 or 5 occasions, I lost between 300 - 500 aircraft vs. TF-58.  After losing over a 1000 aircraft and downing maybe 20 F6Fs without scoring a single hit, it's just not worth the exchange (or lack thereof).  Watching those replays was ANNOYING, just from the time involved (think about how long it takes to spool out "Lt. Crackshot is credited with kill number 4...  Lt. Crackshot is credited with kill number 5...  Lt. Crackshot is credited with kill number 6...  Lt. Crackshot is credited with kill number 7...  Lt. Crackshot is credited with kill number 8...  Lt. Crackshot is credited with kill number 9...  for 300 air-to-air losses...  , I was -very- glad to see that change in v1.801).

Without success (nary a scratch) vs. CVs, I limited myself to trying to engage the CVE TFs (with about 40 F4Fs as CAP).  I did better with that.  Sank 3-4 CVEs for more "reasonable" losses (maybe 150 - 200 planes).
 
My pilots were low experience (35 - 40).  Experience is HUGE in WitP.  Whether it's KB swatting away Allied fighters in '42, or CAP over TF-58 in '45.  Experience is major.
 
-F-