Speedy vs Fabertong - CAP levels - discussion

[fabertong]

Hi Feinder...

The date is January 8th 1944........Jap. bomber exp. was 80+.....some of my best.........Jap. fighter groups.......65-75........also ....sadly.... some of my best................

[AmiralLaurent]

Limiting the %CAP will do no good, because the Allied fighters will be warmed by radar and 100% will fly CAP.

As Ron said, the problem is in the game engine, with fighters intercepting all incoming raids and all CAP unit attacking all attacking units in each raid... So enabling 85 pilots to score 238 kills in one day. Ron is probably right when he said the CAP is 5 times too effective in number of kills, such a CAP should have shot down 50 AC, maybe repulsed less than 100 and so let more than 100 get trough (not 9 as shown above).

But the ratio is not 10 to 1 for Japan because Japan has no radar in stock and so will have roughly half less fighters on CAP for the same number available in the hex.

By the way the Japanese uber CAP in 41-42 is as unhistorical as the Allied one in 43-45.

[Andy Mac]

I guess I will be the heretic as I dont believe in the 50x limit I tend to limit to 100x if an air HQ and sufficent av support is present. Anything else is IMO too restricting on anything except atolls - but I know others have different views.

I guess most will know the issues PZB and I are having over the UBER CAP issue and its not really satisfactory no matter what you do its a flawed mechanic that the game itself that HR's struggle with UBER CAP is an issue for us all I hate to say it but I think

1. Ammo limits need to come back so that if a 1st strike is wiped out the 2nd hits much harder.
2. Random small 10 - 20 % for kamis to get through whatever the CAP (any less wont have a chance v AA )
3. Random small chance for normal bombers to get through whatever the CAP 5 - 10%

For carriers I limit to no more than 5 Fleet Carrier (4USN) per hex and limit to 70% CAP but that still means minimum CAP of about 120 F6Fs.

Perhaps the time is right to set a max CAP of 30 or 40% to try and make the game more realistic I will watch with interest how it goes of all the game issues out there for me this is number 1.

UBER CAP (JAP and ALLIED) kills the game.

Andy

[Speedysteve]

Hi all,
 
Interesting stuff guys. Thanks.
 
I know Andy. I'm beginning to reach this stage with Faber. We'll see what 40% is like.

[Andy Mac]

I am at 50% max CAP in the PZB game but it may still be to much

[Speedysteve]

Just thought - how about LRCAP?
 
Andy - do you still allow that?

[Mike Solli]

Funny you should mention LRCAP. I've been thinking about it lately. I've had units on LRCAP for days on end (granted the target is relatively short range) without any negative impact on fatigue. What's been happening with your guys on LRCAP?

[DuckofTindalos]

Fatigue usually accumulates VERY quickly, in my experience.

[Speedysteve]

Agreed. Not good on Fatigue. 99% sure it depends on distance to destination hex.

[Mike Solli]

I'll track it over the next few turns. I've had a few units use LRCAP for several days continuously without problem.

[Dino]

It depends on distance...which also affects the number of ACs that will fly.

I'm flying constant LRCAP at 1 hex distance and fatigue stays at 9-10.

[Mike Solli]

ORIGINAL: Speedy

Agreed. Not good on Fatigue. 99% sure it depends on distance to destination hex.

Can't mention distance. Spies about.

[fabertong]

[quote]ORIGINAL: AmiralLaurent

Limiting the %CAP will do no good, because the Allied fighters will be warmed by radar and 100% will fly CAP.

As Ron said, the problem is in the game engine, with fighters intercepting all incoming raids and all CAP unit attacking all attacking units in each raid... So enabling 85 pilots to score 238 kills in one day. Ron is probably right when he said the CAP is 5 times too effective in number of kills, such a CAP should have shot down 50 AC, maybe repulsed less than 100 and so let more than 100 get trough (not 9 as shown above).

But the ratio is not 10 to 1 for Japan because Japan has no radar in stock and so will have roughly half less fighters on CAP for the same number available in the hex.


The good Amiral I fear is correct on this one...........with the CAP limit in force.........another 200+ air-raid hit the Brit. Carriers today....and if anything more CAP flew.........another 200+ dead penguins.......I weep..........

[fabertong]

OOps posted inside the box..........the last para is mine.....

[Miller]

If a CV TF has 100 fighters and a 70% CAP setting there is no way 70 fighters would meet a strike. As CAP had to be rotated to rearm/refuel I think at best 2/3rds of available fighters (about 45 in this example) would be in position to intercept. It is a shame this cannot be modded into the game.

History bears this out in the case of the IJN at Midway, whereby about 75 Zeros were available to the Japs but at one time there were never more than 50 airborne (from Shattered Sword) - great book[&o]

[Speedysteve]

Hi all,

An update and sorry to say it has made no difference so far.

Even with 40% CAP levels:

Day Air attack on TF at 27,35

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zeke x 3
J2M Jack x 6
G4M2 Betty x 35
Ki-61 KAIc Tony x 3

Allied aircraft
Corsair IV x 64
P-38J Lightning x 14

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M5 Zeke: 3 destroyed
J2M Jack: 3 destroyed
G4M2 Betty: 35 destroyed
Ki-61 KAIc Tony: 3 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
Corsair IV: 7 damaged
P-38J Lightning: 2 destroyed, 8 damaged

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 27,35

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zeke x 33
J2M Jack x 19
G4M2 Betty x 42
Ki-61 KAIc Tony x 32

Allied aircraft
Corsair IV x 64
P-38J Lightning x 3

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M5 Zeke: 32 destroyed
J2M Jack: 13 destroyed
G4M2 Betty: 32 destroyed
Ki-61 KAIc Tony: 32 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
Corsair IV: 2 destroyed, 9 damaged
P-38J Lightning: 19 destroyed

Allied Ships
CV Formidable
CV Victorious

Aircraft Attacking:
1 x G4M2 Betty launching torpedoes at 200 feet
3 x G4M2 Betty launching torpedoes at 200 feet
2 x G4M2 Betty launching torpedoes at 200 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 27,35

Japanese aircraft
G4M2 Betty x 28

Allied aircraft
Corsair IV x 45
P-38J Lightning x 3

Japanese aircraft losses
G4M2 Betty: 12 destroyed, 2 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
Corsair IV: 3 damaged
P-38J Lightning: 2 damaged

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 27,35

Japanese aircraft
J2M Jack x 2
G4M2 Betty x 3

Allied aircraft
Corsair IV x 45
P-38J Lightning x 3

Japanese aircraft losses
J2M Jack: 1 destroyed
G4M2 Betty: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
Corsair IV: 2 damaged

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 27,35

Japanese aircraft
J2M Jack x 4
G4M2 Betty x 6

Allied aircraft
Corsair IV x 45
P-38J Lightning x 2

Japanese aircraft losses
J2M Jack: 4 destroyed
G4M2 Betty: 3 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
Corsair IV: 1 damaged

The Radar and CAP bonuses still provide high levels of CAP.

[wdolson]

ORIGINAL: Speedy

Hi Niceguy - don't know on Faber's but my guys range from 68-85 Av. Experience. Interstingly from looking at kill stats it's the P38J's that racked the kills up not the Corsairs..............50th FG now has 321 kills![X(]

What is the experience of the individual pilots in those P-38 squadrons? I have found that a top pilot with 99 experience will rack up a huge score flying CAP. I had a 99 experience pilot in No.232 squadron flying Hurricanes in my CHS game. They were defending Rangoon in early 1942 and the AI threw wave after wave of attacks on Rangoon. The rest of the squadron would get chewed up, but the 99 pilot got several kills on every attack.

If Bong and McQuire are in those P-38 groups, they may be pushing triple digit scores while the rest of the pilots only have a few a piece. If only one pilot in a squadron is at 99 experience and the rest of the pilots are average, the average for the entire squadron won't be that high.

Bill

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: wdolson

ORIGINAL: Speedy

Hi Niceguy - don't know on Faber's but my guys range from 68-85 Av. Experience. Interstingly from looking at kill stats it's the P38J's that racked the kills up not the Corsairs..............50th FG now has 321 kills![X(]

What is the experience of the individual pilots in those P-38 squadrons? I have found that a top pilot with 99 experience will rack up a huge score flying CAP. I had a 99 experience pilot in No.232 squadron flying Hurricanes in my CHS game. They were defending Rangoon in early 1942 and the AI threw wave after wave of attacks on Rangoon. The rest of the squadron would get chewed up, but the 99 pilot got several kills on every attack.

If Bong and McQuire are in those P-38 groups, they may be pushing triple digit scores while the rest of the pilots only have a few a piece. If only one pilot in a squadron is at 99 experience and the rest of the pilots are average, the average for the entire squadron won't be that high.

Bill

Exactly, experience is too high and too easily attained IMunwelcomeO. I've lowered the experience levels drastically in the game I'm playing against Bill W and the A2A is appreciably less deadly thus far. (I also halved the accuracy/rate of fire of A2A ordinance and increased Jap fighter maneuverability by 2 for all 1E fighters)

[wdolson]

ORIGINAL: Miller

If a CV TF has 100 fighters and a 70% CAP setting there is no way 70 fighters would meet a strike. As CAP had to be rotated to rearm/refuel I think at best 2/3rds of available fighters (about 45 in this example) would be in position to intercept. It is a shame this cannot be modded into the game.

History bears this out in the case of the IJN at Midway, whereby about 75 Zeros were available to the Japs but at one time there were never more than 50 airborne (from Shattered Sword) - great book[&o]

The Battle of the Philippine Sea (the Marianias Turkey Shoot) was more historically similar to this battle. With radar, the US carrier fleet was able to see a full Japanese strike was inbound and they scrambled every fighter available, regardless of CAP level set at the beginning of the day.

In the last couple of years of the war, the US CVs did this a couple of times when the Japanese made a heavy attack on TF 58 or 38. I recall reading a story about McCampbell. His score was getting up there and the captain didn't want to see the Navy's top ace lost, so he limited the missions McCampbell could fly. Early in the Okinawa invasion, the scopes lit up with a large Japanese force inbound. McCampbell's F6F was in the hanger unfueled and unarmed, but the order was to scramble every fighter, so the armorers loaded as much fuel as they could in a few minutes and managed to get the guns loaded. McCambpell took off with about 1/2 normal fuel load and bagged several of the incoming strike before low fuel forced him to return.

I noticed in the latest strike report the P-38s were flying much lower CAP, but the Cosairs, which appear to be on the RN CVs are flying maximum CAP. There may be something hard coded into the game that puts all fighters up above CVs with good radar if the Japanese send a large enough strike against it. And that is historically accurate. At least USN doctrine was to put every fighter in the air when a large strike was detected inbound.

The Japanese probably would have scrabled more fighters at Midway if they had good long range radar and seen the large US SBD strike looking for them.

The bad news is that late in the war the Allies have numerical and qualitative superiority in just about every single area.

Bill

[Speedysteve]

Have you equipped Nicks et al with R4M's also?[:'(]