Bombarding Sinagapore

[Yakface]

I'm playing a CHS 2.08 scenario and Singapore starts with a massive (400 pt) minefield.

I amd wondering, how realistic is it to attempt a bombardment? what with the minefield and the CD guns.

Will I need to send in MSW before committing the BTF, or does the fact that the bombardment is from many miles offshore mean the minefield is out of play?

Thanks.

[Q-Ball]

I could be wrong since I am newer to this, but I wouldn't do it. The 15in guns can take a bite out of ANY ship, and you don't want to have BB's repairing in port just to get a few licks in. I think you risk the minefield anyway despite the distance, but the big problem are those 15in guns. Don't do it. Same for Bataan and Manila, the heavy guns there make Bombardment not feasable.

Better to tee up 100 Sallys or something and bomb away every turn.

[Yakface]

Yes, but it would take about 2 years for 100 Sallies to do what 4BB's can achieve in one bombardment.  As far as the CD guns, I would gladly put a couple of BB's in for 3 months of repairs if it got me a decent bombardment.  Mines worry me more, multiple mine hits can finish any ship.

[niceguy2005]

I haven't played CHS, but if it is anything like stock you will get your hat handed to you.

Sing's coastal guns will blast you from the water.

Also, if you set escorts do not bombard, then your fleet will stand out further from the shore and you will be safer from the mines. If you send in a MSW fleet the CD guns will drill them full of holes.

[Halsey]

Yeah, go ahead and give it a try.[:D]

Put your repair yards on standby.[;)]

[saj42]

Niceguy is spot on.
Sing's CD guns will cause a lot of damage. 400 mines are pathetic in comparison (just wait to you meet a 4000 minefield[:D]).
If you must bombard then do it with 'escort do not bombard' and bomb the port with LBA for a couple of days before to try to suppress the CD unit a bit.

[aztez]

In my PBEM vs Vorsteher (Now replaced by FDR) he did make a 2 bombardment runs againts Singapore. (Vanilla game)
 
The first only caused couple of DD's to get damaged but the 2nd attempt resulted BB Kongo and CA Atago to be sunk.
 
So, basically I would not recommend bombarding Singapore. Those CD guns are nasty.

[KDonovan]

had Signapore bombarded by my oppenant with the result of only 1 CA being heavily damaged (but not sunk).....[8|]

[Yakface]

I was hoping for something like this: (from tm.asp?m=1194648&mpage=2)

Naval bombardment of Singapore, at 22,51


Allied aircraft
no flights


Allied aircraft losses
PBY Catalina: 2 destroyed
Catalina I: 1 destroyed

Japanese Ships
CA Kumano
CA Suzuya
CA Mogami
CA Nachi
CA Maya
CA Takao
BB Fuso
BB Hyuga
BB Haruna
BB Kongo


Allied ground losses:
17745 casualties reported [X(]
Guns lost 144
Vehicles lost 4

Airbase hits 28
Airbase supply hits 8
Runway hits 194
Port hits 2

Looks like the received wisdom is that 1eyed jack was lucky.

As a general rule (ie in hexes other than Sinagpore) if you bombard with escorts off do minefields not come into play?

[SGT Swanson]

You do a minefield check when you enter the hex.  Having MSWs along will help with that.
 
Which brings up a new question:  How can you tell how many mines a ML or Sub can or will carry?

[wdolson]

In the real world, the Japanese did what they did because Singapore's defenses from a naval attack were too strong. They recognized that the British had built a massive fort with no back door, so they took the easy way in.

It should be suicide to try and bombard Singapore.

Bill

[niceguy2005]

ORIGINAL: Yakface

I was hoping for something like this: (from tm.asp?m=1194648&mpage=2)

Naval bombardment of Singapore, at 22,51


Allied aircraft
no flights


Allied aircraft losses
PBY Catalina: 2 destroyed
Catalina I: 1 destroyed

Japanese Ships
CA Kumano
CA Suzuya
CA Mogami
CA Nachi
CA Maya
CA Takao
BB Fuso
BB Hyuga
BB Haruna
BB Kongo


Allied ground losses:
17745 casualties reported [X(]
Guns lost 144
Vehicles lost 4

Airbase hits 28
Airbase supply hits 8
Runway hits 194
Port hits 2

Looks like the received wisdom is that 1eyed jack was lucky.

As a general rule (ie in hexes other than Sinagpore) if you bombard with escorts off do minefields not come into play?

If I am not mistaken there is something wrong with this result. There is no mention of coastal guns firing in defence. Maybe the unit is out of supply.

[1EyedJacks]

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005

ORIGINAL: Yakface

I was hoping for something like this: (from tm.asp?m=1194648&mpage=2)

Naval bombardment of Singapore, at 22,51


Allied aircraft
no flights


Allied aircraft losses
PBY Catalina: 2 destroyed
Catalina I: 1 destroyed

Japanese Ships
CA Kumano
CA Suzuya
CA Mogami
CA Nachi
CA Maya
CA Takao
BB Fuso
BB Hyuga
BB Haruna
BB Kongo


Allied ground losses:
17745 casualties reported [X(]
Guns lost 144
Vehicles lost 4

Airbase hits 28
Airbase supply hits 8
Runway hits 194
Port hits 2

Looks like the received wisdom is that 1eyed jack was lucky.

As a general rule (ie in hexes other than Sinagpore) if you bombard with escorts off do minefields not come into play?

If I am not mistaken there is something wrong with this result. There is no mention of coastal guns firing in defence. Maybe the unit is out of supply.

Following is the next day's attack @ Singapore... NYGiants (Michael) and I are talking a little smack but what started this off was that I'd read in the Forum somewhere that the game had pulled the teeth on Singapore's CD units in an earlier patch - so I went in to see what would happen. Escorts are off for bombardment - so my TF is sitting back away from mines. Also, this is early Febuary - I've been pounding Singapore with LBs for almost 40 days, and I mean pounding Singapore. Niceguy2005 has a good eye for detail - it doesn't look like those CD units are tracking at all when I smack Scott1964 with 17k casualties - in the next turn below you can see that 4 guns are on line in that turn. I'm pretty sure this is due to the LBs.

My oponnent in this game is Scott1964 - maybe we can get him to share with us the status of his troops during this time frame. I bet they had piss-poor moral. Also, Those 17k casualties are not all dead... Most are just stunned for a turn or two but will recover as long as supplies are avaialble. In truth, all this really dod was take those supplies down for Scott1964 - by how much I don't know - but his supplies must have dropped markedly with 17k casualties.

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

Michael,
Stay around Singy until the CD's fire back. Then we'll see if it was a wise move.

Jeeze Michael - they only have 4 guns - what R they gunna do? Only 642 enemy casualties tho - they must be hiding in the shell holes from the previous bombardments...

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 02/01/42

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Naval bombardment of Singapore, at 22,51 - Coastal Guns Fire Back!


Allied aircraft
no flights


Allied aircraft losses
PBY Catalina: 1 destroyed

4 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.
Japanese Ships
CA Kumano
CA Suzuya
CA Mogami
CA Nachi
CA Maya
CA Takao
BB Fuso
BB Hyuga
BB Haruna
BB Kongo


Allied ground losses:
642 casualties reported
Guns lost 7

Runway hits 15
Port hits 10
Port supply hits 2

[Nemo121]

I've bombarded Singapore and Manilla and found that if you soften them up with concentraed aerial port attacks that both are quite survivable even if they are well-supplied. You must recon exhaustively and hit the base with a few days of concentrated aerial port attack first. I've never lost a BB, CA or CL, or even had one seriously damaged. I have lost 3 DDs by mistake one time when I forgot to put escorts on do not bombard.

Still though bombarding these fixed defences is quite easy and cheap once you recon and do enough port damage first. Give me 3 days with 100 bombers and a chutai of recon planes in range of Singapore and I'll bombard it quite happily.

[spence]

If a human controls the CDs he can swap out the leader with for one with higher land rating and/or aggression.   Port Moresby was getting smacked regularly by bombardment TFs in my PBEM and it seemed the CDs were on vacation or something.  Swapping the leader in that manner seemed to cause them to shoot the next time it happened and CA Haguro got ventilated quite nicely although not sunk. 

The land rating seemed more important than the aggression. I tried an assortment of combos and that seemed the one that mattered. My opp didn't come back so I'm not sure if it was just a one-time die roll thing though.

[niceguy2005]

I decided to run a little test on the Rising Sun scenario stock ver 1.802. The Bombardment force intended for Khota Bharu went to Sing instead. To make things interesting I set escorts TO bombard. I should have set those swordfish to stand down because they managed to put one into kongo.

DD Oshio hit a mine going in.

I have to say I was really underwhelmed by the CD gun effectiveness. Here is the result.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Naval bombardment of Singapore, at 23,50 - Coastal Guns Fire Back!


Allied aircraft
no flights


Allied aircraft losses
Blenheim IV: 4 destroyed
Buffalo I: 7 destroyed
Catalina I: 1 destroyed
Vildebeest IV: 6 destroyed
Swordfish: 2 destroyed

88 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.
Japanese Ships
DD Asagumo, Shell hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
DD Minegumo
DD Natsugumo
DD Inazuma, Shell hits 11, on fire, heavy damage
DD Ikazuchi, Shell hits 12, on fire, heavy damage
CL Naka
DD Hibiki, Shell hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
DD Akatsuki
DD Arashio
DD Michishio
DD Oshio, on fire
DD Asashio
CL Jintsu
CA Atago
CA Takao
BB Haruna
BB Kongo, on fire

Allied Ships
MSW Goulburn, Shell hits 1, on fire
MSW Toowoomba, Shell hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
DD Stronghold, Shell hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
DD Encounter, Shell hits 1
AP Manoora, Shell hits 1
AP Kanimba, Shell hits 1
DD Express, Shell hits 1, on fire


Allied ground losses:
2108 casualties reported
Guns lost 20
Vehicles lost 1

Airbase hits 29
Airbase supply hits 10
Runway hits 195

One DD was sunk. One more probably will sink. Both BBs unscathed by CD guns.

I'm certain the RN wished that CD guns were this enigmic during the Dardanelle campaign. This looks to me more like revisionist history.

[tsimmonds]

88 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.
Japanese Ships
DD Asagumo, Shell hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
DD Minegumo
DD Natsugumo
DD Inazuma, Shell hits 11, on fire, heavy damage
DD Ikazuchi, Shell hits 12, on fire, heavy damage
CL Naka
DD Hibiki, Shell hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
DD Akatsuki
DD Arashio
DD Michishio
DD Oshio, on fire
DD Asashio
CL Jintsu
CA Atago
CA Takao
BB Haruna
BB Kongo, on fire

Why are Kongo and Oshio on fire? Did you actually look at the ships afterwards to check out damage levels? When the Singapore CDs fire at ships entering the hex, there is no combat report for some reason.

Once I had some MSWs sitting in Mersing. Sometimes MSW will decide to sweep mines in an adjacent hex. The MSW swept mines at Singapore from the Mersing hex, and all three were sunk.

[RUPD3658]

ORIGINAL: KDonovan

had Signapore bombarded by my oppenant with the result of only 1 CA being heavily damaged (but not sunk).....[8|]

This was me. The CA came VERY close to sinking (80 float damage). Only a naval HQ at Saigon and an AR kept her afloat. I also had a BB take about 50 sys and 35 float damage. Overall the results were not good.

Keep in mind that this was after Singapore had been bombed by air for over 3 weeks.

[Tetsuo]

Nemo is right. One of my opponents happily bombarded both singapore and manilla to dust. [:'(] Was a nasty surprise to discover just how useless CD guns are when the proper tactics are applied.

[Xargun]

ORIGINAL: SGT Swanson

You do a minefield check when you enter the hex.  Having MSWs along will help with that.

Which brings up a new question:  How can you tell how many mines a ML or Sub can or will carry?

If you look at the individual ship stats you will see what they carry. For a sub, you can see how many they carry once you load mines upon them.

Xargun