Attacking the north

[Attack]

I would like to argue about the advantages to aim toward Leningrad as the main direction in the 41 campaign, playing as German. Yes, I know, all people thinks that Moscow must be the main attack, but...

First, if the Russian player knows that exist the possibility of a strong attack in the north, he must send there important forces, weakening the Moscow front. Even if the German player aims Moscow, he must say that, may be, Leningrad could be attacked.

Second, Leningrad can fall around September the first. This means that Finns can garrison the north front, and entire Pzs cand attack Moscow.

If Moscow finally falls, the fall of Leningrad collapses the Russian war production, and the war will be near the end. If Moscow holds on, then the winter front will be shortened. The war will be in the south and in the center: Leningrad is easy to defend with the Finn army.

What about the infamous Hitler´s decision? The mistake was to send the Pzs to the north, to the south and, finally, to the center. Aiming all, you´ll lose all.

Ah! To conquer Leningrad quickly enough are needed at least five Pz groups and near all Lutwaffe.

[Gunter_Viezenz]

By North are you talking about using the German forces or the Finnish forces? There is onle problem the supply in the north is much lower at least for me.

[Attack]

The Finns, because political reasons, don´t attack Leningrad nor their suburbs or supply hexes (home rule). Without this home rule, Leningrad will fall even in the 43 campaign.

No, I spoke about aim the Wermatch and Lutwaffe to Leningrad. This way, the attack can begin before September.

But to be sure, you must aim enough forces. Wermatch can´t attack Moscow and Leningrad simultaneously without risk to be surprised by winter at the gates of both cities.

[JagdFlanker]

trust me - with experience you will easily be able to take Leningrad AND Moscow and still have lots of time to get ready for winter. the most experienced german players like the almighty josan are even able to take gorkii before the blizzards, effectively ending the game before winter. unfortunatly i have not seen any of the masters of the game like K62, Kingtiger501, and Josan (to name 3 - there's definatly many more) on this forum for a long time and trust me - they could show you how it's done and make you cry in the process! in this game, you CAN aim for it all and win all - but you have to have razor sharp tactics!

[Alfred]

By "razor sharp" do you mean gamey tactics in order to capture Gorki before December 1941.
 
Alfred

[Attack]

To Flanker:
 
Yes, I trust you, in fact me too sometimes conquered Gorki in 41, and my armies reached the gates of Stalingrad.
 
But I was talking about players of the same tactical level. Against a newie, all strategies will work [:D]. And against a master, any strategy will done to you a victory [:(].

[JagdFlanker]

no gamey tactics needed, you just need to advance very methodically and efficiently to maximize your rail conversion and stay at the edge of your supply. just takes practice and instead of "pushing through" with your panzers you need to to "surround and destroy" to slice up and cause maximum damage to the soviet army in summer 1941 - even a mediocre german player can take moscow and leningrad most of the time against an expert soviet player! i'm not a huge fan of this, but it's still a great game!

[delatbabel]

ORIGINAL: Flanker Leader

no gamey tactics needed, you just need to advance very methodically and efficiently to maximize your rail conversion and stay at the edge of your supply. just takes practice and instead of "pushing through" with your panzers you need to to "surround and destroy" to slice up and cause maximum damage to the soviet army in summer 1941 - even a mediocre german player can take moscow and leningrad most of the time against an expert soviet player! i'm not a huge fan of this, but it's still a great game!

Is this still true in the Possum mod? It seems that in the possum mod the soviets have much more force, on the ground and in the air.

I'm playing 3 games at the moment as the Russians. I'm noticing a big difference between games where the Germans are only allowed 3 interdictions per hex, and games where they can interdict an unlimited number of times per hex. So I think that's a useful house rule.

What are the main things that "even a mediocre german player" does, that the AI does not do, that makes the game so easy to win for the Germans?

[delatbabel]

ORIGINAL: Alfred

By "razor sharp" do you mean gamey tactics in order to capture Gorki before December 1941.

Alfred

What exactly do you mean by "gamey" tactics? What specific tactics would you call gamey that make capturing Gorki easy?

[delatbabel]

ORIGINAL: Attack

I would like to argue about the advantages to aim toward Leningrad as the main direction in the 41 campaign, playing as German. Yes, I know, all people thinks that Moscow must be the main attack, but...

First, if the Russian player knows that exist the possibility of a strong attack in the north, he must send there important forces, weakening the Moscow front. Even if the German player aims Moscow, he must say that, may be, Leningrad could be attacked.

I think the main argument against attacking Leningrad first is that if you do, and Leningrad falls, you still have to attack Moscow where probably the main Russian defence is, and it will all be in supply.

If you attack Moscow, and it falls, and you can cut the one rail line that runs through Tikhvin, then Leningrad is out of supply and you can roll it up in one turn. I have only once (as the soviets) managed to keep Leningrad after losing Moscow.

So attacking Moscow may be harder but has a bigger payoff.

[JagdFlanker]

Is this still true in the Possum mod? It seems that in the possum mod the soviets have much more force, on the ground and in the air.

never did more than quickly look at the possum mod, but it is much harder for the germans because (of the top of my head so i might be wrong)the soviets start with more experience everywhere and the rail path to moscow is "longer" and there are less paths so it's easier to mass the soviets to slow the german advance. i personally would have no problem with the germans taking moscow in the stock game if most/all those factories were not there.

I'm playing 3 games at the moment as the Russians. I'm noticing a big difference between games where the Germans are only allowed 3 interdictions per hex, and games where they can interdict an unlimited number of times per hex. So I think that's a useful house rule.

the reason interdicting is so powerful is that it reduces entrenchment - that makes NO sense to me whatsoever. entrenchment is very difficult to gain in this game (1 per turn up to 3 or 4, then random up to 6, 9 in a major city). airpower should NEVER touch entrenchment - entrenchment is supposed to help reduce casualties from air attack and should reduce only from direct land attack. just makes no sense to me...

What are the main things that "even a mediocre german player" does, that the AI does not do, that makes the game so easy to win for the Germans?

the AI is absolutly useless and a joke - as germany it will only advance at MOST 50% as fast as a human player, and if you run an AI vs AI game germany will NEVER even get close to moscow no matter how much power you give it. try holding the germans off in 1941 when they are right at the edge of their supply and you have abolutly NO time to entrench - you will not be able to hold off germany in the slightest and a german player who can keep their rail conversion on schedual (2 or at most mabe 3 hexes back) will be at the gates of moscow by the end of september/early october at the latest. that gives germany 2 months minus rain days to take moscow and trust me - with entrenchment as useless as it is moscow is DOOMED! be NO rail conversion behind (very, very difficult to do), and gorkii has a reasonable chance of falling before the blizzards too.

[delatbabel]

ORIGINAL: Flanker Leader

never did more than quickly look at the possum mod, but it is much harder for the germans because (of the top of my head so i might be wrong)the soviets start with more experience everywhere and the rail path to moscow is "longer" and there are less paths so it's easier to mass the soviets to slow the german advance. i personally would have no problem with the germans taking moscow in the stock game if most/all those factories were not there.

Of course that's not possible -- you can't rail out the factories in Moscow if you are also going to rail out the endangered southern factories or the Urals will fill up (I think only a total of 9 factories can be railed back there).

An interesting statistic -- the Russians had approximately 1200 factories west of the Urals in June 1941. By September 1941 about 900 were railed past the Urals, and only around 300 were lost to the Germans. The rail capacity in WiR plus the capacity of the Urals to hold the factories doesn't allow the equivalent of that.

ORIGINAL: Flanker Leader

the AI is absolutly useless and a joke - as germany it will only advance at MOST 50% as fast as a human player, and if you run an AI vs AI game germany will NEVER even get close to moscow no matter how much power you give it. try holding the germans off in 1941 when they are right at the edge of their supply and you have abolutly NO time to entrench - you will not be able to hold off germany in the slightest and a german player who can keep their rail conversion on schedual (2 or at most mabe 3 hexes back) will be at the gates of moscow by the end of september/early october at the latest. that gives germany 2 months minus rain days to take moscow and trust me - with entrenchment as useless as it is moscow is DOOMED! be NO rail conversion behind (very, very difficult to do), and gorkii has a reasonable chance of falling before the blizzards too.

In Second Front it was possible for the Russians to encircle and destroy German units if they came too far forwards. In WiR that's not possible because the Russian units usually won't obey orders before November. So in WiR it's possible for the Germans to move forwards faster -- in SF that wasn't possible or you'd end up losing your advance panzer corps.

[mglshark]

I feel much better after reading this, do to me being crushed as the Soviets in '41 several times! The game has change alot since the beginning as SF - I remember beating the computer and players by airlifting supply to forward german tank units that outran supply!

Of course in SF you could run units on rail from one end of the map to the other end without lost of readiness.

I remember bombing axis oil in the south in one game, my PBM German never knew it untill his panzers stated running out of fuel! Sneaky trick..

Other games I lost Zuchov "due to illness" one turn one and Rommenal early on "stafing attack" - lot's of fun!

We found the Russian must leave big units (like tanks) to entrech in major cites from turn one and never attack/move out, otherwise they lose the bonues. Air units and tanks run like hell east to save themselves. And lost of Moscow means units north have supply issues which ends the game rather quick.

So Moscow loss is bigger then Leingrad in my book, however going north during good weather to secure that flank can be a good move, leading to collaspe of Moscow. Opening up Finland, loss of factorys and the only area where Soviet air power can "practice" to build experience without getting wipe out by Germans.

BTW - 8 bit Atari WIR days the swamp hex next to Leingrad was switch to clear in the Apple 2 version as I remember. Big difference in taking that city!

So it seems the Germans cannot be stop do to special supply / HQ mules, air interdiction on entrenchments (which don't raise automatically past a low level), and unrealistic tank stacking to make "killer" stacks that blow holes in the Russian lines.

Is this the end of war in russia?

M