Is wir 3.3 that unbalanced or is it German mules on the front line?

[Von Coneon]

Hi to All,
Heard a lot over the years about the hopelessness of the Russian case in wir. I admit without lorenzo's house rules it can be an almost hopeless uphill battle.

But I have played several games with these rules against honest german players that have ended in russian success. I'm not saying it's easy but it certainly can be done if the german player is not muling the hell out of his spearheads, indeed I have to wonder wether many german players realise that you can't swap a unit to a new HQ once is has taken special supply from another HQ & this is the cause of their success.

I read a very long post on bugs cheats etc where one player lauded many times as an almost unbeatable german player said UH OH! OOPS! I DO THAT! when the mule discussion came up!

If the german unwittingly does this or cheats deliberately then the yes the russian player does not have a chance against the german spearheads. Otherwise in a fair game a skillful & patient russian can win with a bit of luck. Be interested to know if many german players will admit to their mistake???
Cheers Von Coneon

[JagdFlanker]

i must be the only one who fights against this, but these so called 'mules' are highly over-rated as some sort of game breaker. mules are of little advantage to the attacker and of GREAT advantage to the defender if you know some of the little known ins and outs of the game. if you want to blame anything towards the german superiority in summer 1941 there's a few culprits, such as:

- the germans get the supply bonus for perhaps a little too long

- entrenchment takes a long time to create and is easily destroyed, especially if airstrikes are overused. if you check the version notes will notice that the effect of entrenchment has been reduced signifigantly since the original version of the game was first released - this is very likely why leningrad falls every game and the germans can rip through the soviet line like a knife through soft butter

- soviet divisions are very inexperienced, take a huge readiness hit in the summer and shatter very easily

but 1 huge factor is often overlooked - the soviets almost ALWAYS can recover from getting the stuffing beat out of them all summer, but once the blizzards start the coin is flipped and it's the germans that have to be very careful or they will take massive casualties and be crippled for the rest of the game since they cannot replace casulties.

so what is wrong with the game in 1941? like i said previously it is the capture of moscow that cripples the soviets and not anything else because of the perminant loss of a huge pile of heavy industry and equipment factories. if those factories were not in moscow it wouldn't matter if it was captured because it would just be another city, and only an amazing german player can go much beyond moscow so really the results are relatively close to historical.

soooo - what's the "in and out" that gives the defender the advantage when it comes to mules? i really don't ever want to say since it's something you eventually figure out by spending "quality time" with the game, but i will say that every single used or unused corps in the game gets to be supplied once, and once you change a corps you can no longer plot or move it

[;)]

[Von Coneon]

Hi there Flanker Leader,

I hear what your saying about the mules, but I meant where the russian isn't using mules & the german is, I would argue that an organised russian player doesn't really need to mule as they can get by without resorting to it ie the german usually attack on a narrow front & fairly predictable areas with their panzers(ie most players go for moscow/leningrad) so each sector where the attacks are occurring can have several HQ's with only 2 to 4 units allowing the crucial hexes to be given supply without compromising OP points & a reserve HQ for emergency use ie to swap a worn out unit to if your line HQ is running low on OP.
I would add they also have to have units in place many turns before to get entrenchment ie ( I will garrison moscow & leningrad river line on the first turn ) & their divisions in place at least 2 turns before the germans get there. In reverse the panzers generally are at the limit or low supply for a large portion of the first summer so they benefit greatly in terms of supply if mules are used.

Another point is that I find that if a hex can hold the first attack ( which it has a much greater chance of doing if the panzers are a bit tired ) then the unit combat rating usually increases significantly so it's a good way to increase the overall experience of the russian motley crew. This is linked to the readiness you mentioned, in that I find by the closing phases of the first summer the russian readiness has greatly improved but their experience really sucks which is a huge contributor to low combat ratings.

I agree with you about moscow it would be nice to be able to keep moving factories above the 9 limit & make it less of a disaster. The winter onslaught is not enough compensation for all those factories going west.

Hmmm maybe the mythical wir 4 will sort out all these problems & make it an even more fantastic game.

Anyway thanks for the reply[;)]

Cheers Von Coneon

P.S. fancy a game with me as the russians? maybe lorenzo's house rules

[delatbabel]

Even with Lorenzo's house rules, air strikes can be over-used. Lorenzo's rules say 2 interdiction attacks per HQ per defender, but a defender may be hit an unlimited number of times. The more recent house rules say 1 attack per HQ per defender, with a limit of 3 interdictions per unit total.

I am playing Lorenzo at the moment and we are using the 3 air interdiction limit. The game is more survivable for the russians that way -- german interdictions can't always blast through any level of fortification / unit strength.

I think the game is unbalanced in favour of the Germans, it certainly appears to be much more so than Second Front, but it's still playable with decent house rules. Don't expect to win as the Russians but have some fun losing.

Try the possum mod, that is worth looking at. I haven't played it PBEM yet but it seems OK against the AI.

[Von Coneon]

Hi there delatbabel,
Yeah I actually use the 3 air rule myself does help to moderate the game somewhat. Its a shame that the balance is skewed a bit too much toward german summer offensive power, oh well still a great game & I have managed to pull off a few victories as the russian, very gratifying. But very hard against a good player.
Cheers Von Coneon

[JagdFlanker]

ORIGINAL: Von Coneon

Hi there Flanker Leader,

I hear what your saying about the mules, but I meant where the russian isn't using mules & the german is..

well, that's just plain cheating!

I would argue that an organised russian player doesn't really need to mule as they can get by without resorting to it ie the german usually attack on a narrow front & fairly predictable areas with their panzers(ie most players go for moscow/leningrad) so each sector where the attacks are occurring can have several HQ's with only 2 to 4 units allowing the crucial hexes to be given supply without compromising OP points & a reserve HQ for emergency use ie to swap a worn out unit to if your line HQ is running low on OP.

a key point to remember is that for all intents and purposes the soviet 1941 summer is like the german 1941/42 blizzards - soviet corps and armies shatter easily if they are below 70% readiness. if as sovs you can keep your front line at a high readiness (by using mules and the 'in and out' i hinted at) you can significantly decrease your losses and slow the germans down more than without using mules. if the germans are shattering their way through your lines it's much much easier to advance than if you are merely making them retreat or 'moving them out of the way'. if RVGK is always full of shattered units you wil not be able to keep your front line up to strength, and most importantly when the blizzards come you will be too disorganized to advance. half the trick of being a successful soviet player is to be ready to attack the germans the second the blizzard hits, and if you are busy trying to rebuild your army you will not get far during the time that the german army is at their weakest.

i'm not saying that mules should be allowed, i'm just saying that if you know the game well mules are a huge advantage to the soviets over the germans and their proper use by the soviets will balance the game out more than by not using mules. the germans spend the whole summer in high readiness already so getting topped up will only marginally increase their power, while the soviets can take a very low readiness corps and magically transform it into a 99% readiness unit in 1 turn - who's got the advantage there? [;)]

P.S. fancy a game with me as the russians? maybe lorenzo's house rules

i'v already accepted another gentleman's offer (mr Attack) so i'l have to decline until mabe after christmas - i'l put you next in the queue!

[Von Coneon]

mules are a huge advantage to the soviets over the germans and their proper use by the soviets will balance the game out more than by not using mules

Yeah I guess your right, like you say maybe its a good balancing tool. So put me in the queque for next game, maybe we can test the theory if you haven't already. Maybe soviets can mule in summer & germans in winter, might even things out a little & make it a better. Anyway look forward to a game when you can.

Cheers Von Coneon

[Attack]

I remember how many discussions were when we prepare the home rules, some years ago.
Josan and me defended the HQ mules with an argument: Wermatch or Red Army could (and they do, historically) send the supplies and resources to a unit in a important place. But the consensus was, finally, not to employ HQ mules.
About balance the game: I think that HQ mules will help the Russian player during the critical 41 september-october. The German player can extra-supply some Pzs units, but they will be in little supply place and, more important, the German must move a lot of units and his short of OP.
The Russian moves a little number of units, so he has a lot of OP to spend in extra-supply. And with a great effect, because their units are in well supplied places.
So, if consensus says that we can use HQ mules again, OK.

Btw: if someone wants to play as German, ok too.

[delatbabel]

I think that it's gamesmanship to use mules, and it shouldn't be allowed whether it helps one side more than the other or not. It creates an artificial OP bonus for the side using them, and it makes the OP system misrepresent the actual facts of war.

How many times on the eastern (or western) front did SS units receive supplies they didn't need, then decline to send them on to wehrmacht units because they were "SS supplies" and the wehrmacht wasn't entitled to them. The same for the different soviet fronts & even individual divisions.

I don't think it's the major unbalancing effect in the game. Comparing this vs second front, the main thing that makes WiR impossible to win for the Russians is (a) the extra german blitz turns, especially that the russian units don't follow orders until november, which is way too late both from a game balance point of view and historically and (b) the overwhelming effect of repeated interdictions, airfield attacks, or strat bombing, on a single hex. (b) is fixable with house rules (in SF it wasn't possible to assign "missions" to air units, so effectively you couldn't withhold planes in a HQ from an interdiction attack, so each HQ could only fly one mission per turn, period). (a) I think needs a fix in the game.

If "russian units will follow orders" was shifted from November to September, and the german special supply was limited to 10 (june), 8 (july) and 6 (august) then it'd be a more playable and more realistic game. As it stands the soviets can't win, and will almost always lose in 1941.

[Attack]

To me, the most important thing is consensus between players. I´d like an general agreement about use of HQ mules, because is a little confusing to play with them against some players and without them against others.
 
As German player, I usually don´t use extra-supply in 41 summer, because I need all my OP to move Wermatch to east. Only with the rain I´ve enough OP to spend in extra-supply.
 
This is my propose of agreement for PEBM: To forbid HQ mules, except the Soviet player until the end of 1941.
 
This could simulate: The supply problems of the Germans when they advance east, the short supply lines of the Soviets near Moscow, and the best defense mod of the Russians (the 41 summer and automn Russians offensives were chaotics, but they defended well), and will do stronger the first winter Soviet offensive.
 
And this will balance the game. A little more, at least.
 
What do you think?
 
Of course, I agree with delatbabel about HQ air interdiction attacks. Only two every HQ. This way, the German player must choose if to scout the front attacking a lot of units, or to concentrate in a breaking point. And gives a chance to the Red Air Force, to resist a little the Lutwaffe (As German, I had surprising fighter and bomber loses, none of my squadrons had more than 100 aircrafts ready)
 
But it is a fact: Lutwaffe was much stronger that Air Red Force. Air Red Force only can do "guerrilla" attacks or defenses, and to sacrify itself in the decisive battle around Moscow. And only when bad weather difficults Lutwaffe support, Russian player has a chance to defeat a German unit supported by bombers.

[JagdFlanker]

ORIGINAL: Attack

This is my propose of agreement for PEBM: To forbid HQ mules, except the Soviet player until the end of 1941.

to be fair it should be until may '42 - the germans shatter too easily in the blizzards and should be given the opportunity to be able to keep their readiness up as well. the soviets can survive a few shatters - the germans cannot.

Of course, I agree with delatbabel about HQ air interdiction attacks. Only two every HQ. This way, the German player must choose if to scout the front attacking a lot of units, or to concentrate in a breaking point. And gives a chance to the Red Air Force, to resist a little the Lutwaffe (As German, I had surprising fighter and bomber loses, none of my squadrons had more than 100 aircrafts ready)

now that i know i actually like the way SF had it - 1 mission per HQ. but perhaps a fair way of limiting it might be 1 mission per mission type per HQ - so a HQ could do an airbase attack, interdiction, and a strategic bombing in the same turn but not 2 interdictions or 2 airbase attacks. perhaps another way could be 2 air missions per HQ, but only 1 may be interdiction. just some ideas

[DavidFaust]

Hi Flanker,
I recall some time ago I started a forum for a standard set of house rules for WIR. I tried to find it but it seems not to be here anymore.

The biggest issue regarding play balance in the game is airpower. A good set of rules here would make the game alot more challenging and would make the game alot more enjoyable.

only 2 types of any airmission per hq. only 2 attacks can be made against 1 target

HQ mules

I rather not use them but from a game point of view, its better to let players use hq's as they see fit.(The less rules the better as confusion can accure if many games are played with different rules) I would rather players agree to remove a number of hq's from the game if this was to be used. This will make the players think twice about using hq's this way as there numbers are limmited.

[delatbabel]

ORIGINAL: kingtiger_501

Hi Flanker,
I recall some time ago I started a forum for a standard set of house rules for WIR. I tried to find it but it seems not to be here anymore.

I see that you've found the thread. Welcome back, btw.

Was there any consensus on house rules that re-balance the game in 1941?

[JagdFlanker]

ORIGINAL: kingtiger_501

HQ mules

I rather not use them but from a game point of view, its better to let players use hq's as they see fit.(The less rules the better as confusion can accure if many games are played with different rules) I would rather players agree to remove a number of hq's from the game if this was to be used. This will make the players think twice about using hq's this way as there numbers are limmited.

that is a brilliant idea and it would be the ONLY way i would impliment a mule killer in my games. to be fair i would exempt the soviets from this rule in summer 1941 and exempt germany from this rule during any blizzard turn in winter 1941/42. i would have to wait until my confuser stops freezing every 5 seconds to find an exact formula, but i would think something like for every 4 or 5 railable HQ's on the map you must have 1 HQ deleted. wicked idea!

[Attack]

It seems to be a general agreement in all Home Rules, except in:
 
a) The numbers of interdiction attacks on a single hex. I´ve experimented that only massive and repeteated interdiction air attacks will destroy one level of entrenchement. So I think that 3 interdiction attacks on a single hex it´s ok. And the supply level only lows 15%.
 
b) Number of air misions of an HQ. I think that only one does the game poor, and 3 are too much. Two over different hexes are OK, in my oppinion.
 
c) HQ mules. A couple of years ago, we were talking about during months. I think that, if you´re preparing a decissive offensive or defending a key city, all the supply available will go there. So HQ mules are ok, to me.
But someones don´t like HQ mules, even they hate them, so, searching consensus and to balance the game, I propose:
 
The Russian player can use HQ mules freely during 1941 until February 42. This will balance the game and reflects the superior supply level of Soviets when they were near their supply bases.
 
The German player only can use HQ mules from November 41 to Frebruary 42. To give it some chances to don´t shatter the entire army.
 
Of course, I´d like do not to have ANY Home rule. I.e: if the program only gives the posibility to do one, or two, or 3 air interdiction atacks, nobody discuss this. Or if was not posible to change the HQ after extrasupply, no arguments about HQ mules. Or if a Pz korp couldn´t fly along mountains and swamps...
 
But the program is not perfect. So, we must to have Home Rules to fair play.
 
Ah!

[Shupov]

I've read many discussions about how to balance WiR more to the Russian favor but I don't think I've seen the simplest solution, one that requires no effort. The Help and Max Help feature will accomplish much the same thing as HQ mules, correct? I don't know whether Help can be turned off after 1941 in PBEM although the screen allows changes at the beginning of each turn. But the Russian often won't survive the first year anyway, especially against a good German player. Thoughts?

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Two broken Tigers on fire in the night, flicker their souls to the wind... We wait in the lines for the final assault to begin...

Al Stewart, The Best of Al Stewart "Roads to Moscow"