Naval Combat

[Zorachus99]

I'm not sure if it's appropriate to begin this thread, but I wanted to discuss to bring up a feature request.

Importance: Like to have

While selecting naval units to put in a taskforce, show the total value of the of the naval surface combat factors and anti-air factors of the units that are currently selected.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Zorachus99
I'm not sure if it's appropriate to begin this thread, but I wanted to discuss to bring up a feature request.

Importance: Like to have

While selecting naval units to put in a taskforce, show the total value of the of the naval surface combat factors and anti-air factors of the units that are currently selected.

I want to redo several parts of the player interface dealing with naval units. At this point I have not thought the design details but here are some of my objectives:

1 - facilitate moving the same (or similar) groups of naval units each turn

2 - enhance the ability of the player to 'see' a large portion of the map for naval moves

3 - simplify how the player defines (and modifies) resource routing through convoy pipelines

4 - enhance the ability of the player to assess the risk of naval combat

5 - enhance the visual appearance of the naval combat system so it is as interesting as land and air combat

For #1 I intend to provide for players the ability to define "task forces". [These will have no relationship to WIF FE "task forces", which relate to fog of war and will be omitted from MWIF product 1.] The MWIF TF's will be for moving units and their definition will last from impulse to impulse, including from turn to turn. Primarily I expect these to be for a CW naval blockade of the North Sea, and the protection of convoy pipelines. It would be possible to use them to create an invasion TF which could remain in port awaiting the opportune moment to strike. Essentially, the idea is to formulate a TF for some purpose and assign units to it. Then you can move the TF as a group without having to select individual naval units every turn. This would be especailly helpful when a naval fleet is composed of several groups of ships, coming out of 3 or 4 minor ports, are repeatedly being assembled in the same sea area each turn and then returned to the sames bases at the end of the turn. Right now I envision a simple form showing one (or two) port(s) with all the naval units in the port listed. A player would use the form to assign units to 1 or more TFs, or modifying their assignments. Perhaps this could also be done for all the naval units in a sea area instead of in a port. When the player wants to move naval units, one choice would be to select a task force instead of individual ships - this part would have to be extremely simple to do or else the whole purpose of facilitating naval movement would be defeated.

I have struggled with trying to define #2 on several occasions already. Zoom level 2 works best from being able to see a lot of the map and still be able to identify units, but I am not completely happy with this. Zoom level 1 should really be used, simply because of the large expanses of water that naval units can move over. This is particularly true when thinking in terms of moving a TF from San Francisco out into the Pacific and then using the return to base phase to continue its travels to Australia (for example). For planning purposes being able to see a lot of the map is important. Then there are the units themselves. TFs contain a lot of individual units. When playing with Cruisers in Flames, this problem is virtually doubled (literally). It would be nice to see all the naval units in each port that can reach a sea area (e.g., Western Mediterranean). That would require seeing England, the Red Sea, and a substantial portion of the Atlantic Ocean at the same time. There are a lot of ports within that area and 'seeing' all the units in all those ports simultaneously is probably impossible. So there are these trade-offs that have to be made: size of map area visible, size of each hex visible, # of ports visible, # of units visible, size of units (or level of detail) visible, ... I am open to suggestions here.

#3 I believe is rather straight forward though the use of detailed map provides only a limited view of sea areas at one time and the use of the global map amkes everything quite tiny. On epossibility I have been toying with is creating a double size global map. Right now the global map displays each hex as a 2 by 2 pixel image. Offsetting each row by 1 pixel creates a hexagonal appearance. If I enabled the players to double the size of the global map so each hex was based on 4 by 4 pixels (rows offsets of 2 pixels), it might be easier to work with. The coding involved should be almost trivial, though the appearance might be somewhat unsightly.

#4 is simply permitting the player to use #5 whiel exploring 'what-ifs'. If I take all my (German) naval units and place them in the North Sea, and then the CW take s all 'those' naval units and places them there, what are the possible.likely outcomes?

#5 I have started work on though I haven't gottem very far. 3 vertical columns: Axis details on the left, Allied details on the right, summary comparison in the center. Each column contains 3 segments (~rows): air, surface, and sub. Within a segment for each side would be individual units and within a segment for the summary would be aggregate statistics (e.g., air-to-sea factors, # of bombers, anti-aircraft factors, etc.).

The important thing with all of these is to get the design right before starting to write code. There are 3 elements that need to be evaluated for the design: purpose/goal, visual, and player interaction.

All comments are welcome, indeed, they are eagerly solicited.

[wosung]

All I can say is, I really like all 5 planned naval features.

For newbees naval system in Wif isn't as intuitiv as the other combat systems. Every bit more info, every bit less clickfeast (imo one of the biggest fun killers in gaming) will help.

Extreme zoom-out won't really make it easier if nobody can see or click the units. Perhaps with the added possibility of circling through the units which can reach a certain seazone with the map picture following.

And I would love the possibility of the player can name the TF himself.

Regards

[trees]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

This would be especailly helpful when a naval fleet is composed of several groups of ships, coming out of 3 or 4 minor ports, are repeatedly being assembled in the same sea area each turn and then returned to the sames bases at the end of the turn.

This would be a bit of a rare tactic in that a player would just use a major port for this purpose. While task forces would be assembled at sea from a variety of ports on occasion I think it would be rare to do exact repeats from turn to turn, the enemy is always doing things making you want to detach a couple cruisers from one TF to reinforce another or what have you. Some games (I have only limited computer game experience) allow you to pre-designate repetitive orders for units to do each turn but I would rarely need to use such a feature in WiF.

Cardboard WiF has a nice 'Task Force Display' that came out with Ships in Flames; at first we used it but then we just went back to piling up ships in unused areas of the map, like having Sweden stand in for Kiel and Spain for Gibraltar, etc. The computer will help this quite a bit, I would suggest using the cardboard TF markers for some names and then adding a few more historical ones for flavor, but there is no need for an upper limit with the computer. The cardboard ones were limited by the space available on the display but also by country, probably more because of the interaction with the Hidden Task Force rule than anything else. Perhaps a counter can be depicted that is like a virtual link to a pop-up box showing the contents of a single force. But a special window for all the different task forces around the world a lá the paper one would be a bit distracting.

One thing you may wish to consider is treating naval stacks a little differently than land stacks. Instead of Pearl Harbor showing a stack with 21 total units; one of them being a land unit, two airplanes and 18 ships, let the stack be examined as the three land/air units with an option to expand out and look at all the ships.

[trees]

Maybe at the highest zoom level any port with face-up naval units could be highlighted in one color for friendly forces and another for enemy. Then clicking on the port could show the forces contained.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: trees

Maybe at the highest zoom level any port with face-up naval units could be highlighted in one color for friendly forces and another for enemy. Then clicking on the port could show the forces contained.

A couple of clarificatiosns on this.

MWIF has the zoom levels numbered 1=> 8 with 1 having very small hexes and 8 having very large hexes. So the "highest zoom level" would show very few hexes, but they would be big. This is just a convention we all need to agree on so communications don't get garbled.

Ports can not contain naval units of both sides simultaneously. However, they can contain units from different major powers. I am not sure what you are visualizing here. Perhaps a simple example would help me understand.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: wosung

All I can say is, I really like all 5 planned naval features.

For newbees naval system in Wif isn't as intuitiv as the other combat systems. Every bit more info, every bit less clickfeast (imo one of the biggest fun killers in gaming) will help.

Extreme zoom-out won't really make it easier if nobody can see or click the units. Perhaps with the added possibility of circling through the units which can reach a certain seazone with the map picture following.
And I would love the possibility of the player can name the TF himself.

Regards

Letting a player name TF's is easy. ... But only using roman numerals! ... Just kidding.[;)]

I already have on my to-do list for the interface the ability to build and present list of units and hexes at various times during the game. Examples are: all tactical air units that can reach hex X, all ports with friendly/enemy naval units that can reach section 2 or higher in sea area X, all land based air with air-to-sea factors that can reach section 0 or higher in sea area X, all fighters that can reach hex/sea area X. And so on. The player could request that these lists be generated and they would be shown in a minimal form as either a list of units or a list of hexes. Clicking on the unit/hex would enable some feedback from the program on same.

I've written the code to load and display the bitmapped graphic images for task forces (Rob did them back in the spring), so I would expect to display them as a single 'unit'. Obviously the contents of the task force would be accessible too, either with individual units or as summary statistics.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: trees

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
This would be especailly helpful when a naval fleet is composed of several groups of ships, coming out of 3 or 4 minor ports, are repeatedly being assembled in the same sea area each turn and then returned to the sames bases at the end of the turn.

This would be a bit of a rare tactic in that a player would just use a major port for this purpose. While task forces would be assembled at sea from a variety of ports on occasion I think it would be rare to do exact repeats from turn to turn, the enemy is always doing things making you want to detach a couple cruisers from one TF to reinforce another or what have you. Some games (I have only limited computer game experience) allow you to pre-designate repetitive orders for units to do each turn but I would rarely need to use such a feature in WiF.

Cardboard WiF has a nice 'Task Force Display' that came out with Ships in Flames; at first we used it but then we just went back to piling up ships in unused areas of the map, like having Sweden stand in for Kiel and Spain for Gibraltar, etc. The computer will help this quite a bit, I would suggest using the cardboard TF markers for some names and then adding a few more historical ones for flavor, but there is no need for an upper limit with the computer. The cardboard ones were limited by the space available on the display but also by country, probably more because of the interaction with the Hidden Task Force rule than anything else. Perhaps a counter can be depicted that is like a virtual link to a pop-up box showing the contents of a single force. But a special window for all the different task forces around the world a lá the paper one would be a bit distracting.

One thing you may wish to consider is treating naval stacks a little differently than land stacks. Instead of Pearl Harbor showing a stack with 21 total units; one of them being a land unit, two airplanes and 18 ships, let the stack be examined as the three land/air units with an option to expand out and look at all the ships.

The Units Under Cursor panel presently has filters for Axis vs Allied and Sea Box Sections. It's possible to expand the choices there to include by gross unit type (air/naval/land). I am reluctant to make it a complete filter system as used in other places in the game (e.g., for when reviewing all the units in the game).

In over-the-board games I actually have had the problem (on more than 1 occasion) of not having a major port available and instead using multiple minor ports to keep an enemy fleet in check. My vague recollections are that was as the USA in the Pacfiic.

I am against enabling repetitive moves for both philosophical and practical reasons. My proposed alternative is TF's.

[CBoehm]

a nice feature would be the ability to click on a sea-area and set a filter to only show AC able to reach box "X" ...[8D]

[trees]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets


I am not sure what you are visualizing here. Perhaps a simple example would help me understand.

I mean that at zoom level one ... when looking at the big oceans the ports (and sea-boxes) with face-up naval units could be brightened with different colors to help players recall what capabilities the enemy and the friendlies still have left when planning naval moves. I'm not sure what zoom level one would even look like, I was imagining a zoom level without even hexes actually.

[trees]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

In over-the-board games I actually have had the problem (on more than 1 occasion) of not having a major port available and instead using multiple minor ports to keep an enemy fleet in check. My vague recollections are that was as the USA in the Pacfiic.

The Final Edition maps make this less likely, with more major ports and the major ports more likely to be on multiple sea boundaries. Because of action limits the major ports are used extensively and the Minor ones much less.

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

I am against enabling repetitive moves for both philosophical and practical reasons. My proposed alternative is TF's.

Yes, this is going to be great, doing TF management on the computer. You will just need a simple way to drag-n-drop ships in the same port from one TF to another.

[trees]

Also, ships in major ports are safer from air attack...

[Incy]

CWiF had a feature where you could use the world map for naval movements. You also had some toggles for the world map that let you see what was in each seasone. Each seazone would have 4 numbers:
SURFACE/AIR/SUB/CP
These 4 numbers would show for every seazone, and if you wanted detail, you just held your mouse over any seazone, to see exactly what was there, and in which box. The 4 numbers were extremely practical to be able to spot at a glance where extra escorts or CP were needed.

It was possible to select units on the regular map and drop them on the world map, or the other way around. After playiong CWiF a while, I ended up using the regular map to pick up units, and using the world map to drop them off (oposite when returning to base).

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Incy
CWiF had a feature where you could use the world map for naval movements. You also had some toggles for the world map that let you see what was in each seasone. Each seazone would have 4 numbers:
SURFACE/AIR/SUB/CP
These 4 numbers would show for every seazone, and if you wanted detail, you just held your mouse over any seazone, to see exactly what was there, and in which box. The 4 numbers were extremely practical to be able to spot at a glance where extra escorts or CP were needed.

It was possible to select units on the regular map and drop them on the world map, or the other way around. After playiong CWiF a while, I ended up using the regular map to pick up units, and using the world map to drop them off (oposite when returning to base).

Thanks. This helps me understand how the CWIF interface design/elements can be used for naval moves. I have no interest in removing any of these features/capabilities.

I do want to remain open to other possibilities at this point. Seeing naval and air units that can reach a sea area is a major concern of mine. Over the board this requires some care, but is quite doable. On a 15 inch screen it's not as easy.

[Zorachus99]

I like the idea of having selectable units glow (usually a animated golden outline) around units which are available to move during the phase in progress.  This would allow you to see hexes at zoom level one and know there are units which are available to make it to a sea zone.  This would be particularly helpful during naval movement of air units.  It would also highlight the port you are in.  All you have to do is define a subset of units which can make naval movement, and then go through a check to display the ones that can reach 'a' sea area.  Keeps it simple but engages the eye when doing planning.  Perhaps even have a blue animated outline (or other color) for enemy units able to reach 'a' sea area.  Obviously adding complexity beyond this, such as representing which sea areas or what box they can get to could muddy the proverbial waters [;)] if using color coding to highlight available units (clearly not impossible though).

[Froonp]

I mean that at zoom level one ... when looking at the big oceans the ports (and sea-boxes) with face-up naval units could be brightened with different colors to help players recall what capabilities the enemy and the friendlies still have left when planning naval moves. I'm not sure what zoom level one would even look like, I was imagining a zoom level without even hexes actually.

Good idea. Zoom level 1 would be the good way to go IMO.

Also, Steve, would it be possible to have a toggle allowing to not display the hexes on the map ? The map at zoom level 1&2 would be prettier without hexes.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: Incy

CWiF had a feature where you could use the world map for naval movements. You also had some toggles for the world map that let you see what was in each seasone. Each seazone would have 4 numbers:
SURFACE/AIR/SUB/CP
These 4 numbers would show for every seazone, and if you wanted detail, you just held your mouse over any seazone, to see exactly what was there, and in which box. The 4 numbers were extremely practical to be able to spot at a glance where extra escorts or CP were needed.

It was possible to select units on the regular map and drop them on the world map, or the other way around. After playiong CWiF a while, I ended up using the regular map to pick up units, and using the world map to drop them off (oposite when returning to base).

Incy is right. Those 4 numbers displayed on the World Map were a good help.
I used the same way to move ships over great distances. The World Map.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

I mean that at zoom level one ... when looking at the big oceans the ports (and sea-boxes) with face-up naval units could be brightened with different colors to help players recall what capabilities the enemy and the friendlies still have left when planning naval moves. I'm not sure what zoom level one would even look like, I was imagining a zoom level without even hexes actually.

Good idea. Zoom level 1 would be the good way to go IMO.

Also, Steve, would it be possible to have a toggle allowing to not display the hexes on the map ? The map at zoom level 1&2 would be prettier without hexes.

Here is zoom level 2 without the default hexgrid. Country boundaries are still drawn and the hex shapes themselves generate the grid ni many places.

It is easy to make this a user preference choice for the player interface. I don't see players toggling it on and off during a game. They'll set it the way they like it and are unlikely to change it thereafter.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

2nd and last in the series. Here is zoom level 1. In both these I have toggled rail/road lines off but left the names visible. I think at zoom level 1 I will not show names that are smaller than the size of sea area names. That will remove all those without white shadowing.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

I just had another idea. How about making all the larger names the size of the major power names for zoom level 1? That will make the sea area names easy to read.