Tiger vs Panther

[Tom1939]

I think what moi wants to say that basically the greatest contribution to german defeat was the red army and the eastern front. I do agree with that. But the war was in the eastern front was preatty "close" so to say. I do think the war would have been much longer without allied lend lease, and the soviets would probably made a draw not a victory. But the british and the english would never ever would have defeated the werhmacht one on one... They might have won with atomic bomb, but I don't see them defeating germany in normal warfare without the soviets. They did not have the "immunity" to huge losses like the soviet had. And a victorius and full strength werhmacht would offered a considerably different level of resistance then the one historicaly in 44. It is just my oppinion though <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

[Ranger-75]

moi,

first off, don't worry about your english, it's better than some people over here use.

The numbers of lost tanks, aircraft, etc that I mentioned as being "lost" by the western allies was not what was sent over, only what was LOST to GERMAN U-BOATS. In reality 7.2% of the ships sent to the northern ports were sank.

In reality over 430,000 trucks were sent to the Soviet Union.

When I said that the US and British armies were motorized I meant that we did NOT have any horse drawn logistics, and yes, while the US Army in the beginning of 1940 was small (in 1939, it was around 100,000 total strength) by the time we expanded it to 8 MILLION we were still fully motorized, AFTER sending 430,000 trucks to the Soviet Union. The Soviets turned almost their entire automotive industry over to tank production knowing that that were going to receive plenty of execllent US made trucks.

Let me lookk at my map, I always thought Italy was in Europe. And on 1 Jan 1944 there were over 20 Allied divisions in Italy and 28 German divisions including 6 Panzer/motorized. Would you have preferred those extra divisions be in the east? or the 40 os so that were sitting in France???

How about the 28 THOUSAND Allied aircraft that were drawing off over HALF of all Germany's total air strength for the defense of Germany.

I give full credit for the tremendous fighting that the Russian soldiers went through for 4 years. I just want to make it clear that the western allies made it possible for the Soviets not only to defeat the Germans in Russia but to carry the war back into eastern Europe and to Germany itself, and faster than if there was no lend lease aid.

And lastly, the Soviet marshalls admitted that it was the American wheeled transport that enabled them to keep up the pace of their 1944 and 1945 offensives. So yes, the Soviet Army, excluding the tank combat units, literally did "ride to berlin" in american vehicles.

[moi]

Originally posted by Mike Santos:
moi,

first off, don't worry about your english, it's better than some people over here use.

The numbers of lost tanks, aircraft, etc that I mentioned as being "lost" by the western allies was not what was sent over, only what was LOST to GERMAN U-BOATS. In reality 7.2% of the ships sent to the northern ports were sank.

In reality over 430,000 trucks were sent to the Soviet Union.

When I said that the US and British armies were motorized I meant that we did NOT have any horse drawn logistics, and yes, while the US Army in the beginning of 1940 was small (in 1939, it was around 100,000 total strength) by the time we expanded it to 8 MILLION we were still fully motorized, AFTER sending 430,000 trucks to the Soviet Union. The Soviets turned almost their entire automotive industry over to tank production knowing that that were going to receive plenty of execllent US made trucks.


http://www.automarket.nnov.ru/arhive/2002/n3/5.phtml

In 1941-45 Gorkovskii automobile factory produced
157759 cargo automobiles;
18462 person automobiles;
about 12000 tanks;
more than 9000 SU and ISU;
and more and more...

http://www.genstab.ru/lendlease.htm

Journal of the Slavic Military Studies, 1994, vol. 7, No 4. December (english version)

Before war in Red army was 272600 automobiles (and 42000 trucks). From economic was added 206000 auto. In war period was produced 265600.

>knowing that that were going to receive plenty of execllent US made trucks.

Do you know that only a half of 400000 auto was transfered in 6.1941-4.1944? Soviet leaders can't know nothing about period of transfering and can't hope on this auto. But tanks was more important than auto


Let me lookk at my map, I always thought Italy was in Europe. And on 1 Jan 1944 there were over 20 Allied divisions in Italy and 28 German divisions including 6 Panzer/motorized.


Sorry, my error.


Would you have preferred those extra divisions be in the east? or the 40 os so that were sitting in France???

How about the 28 THOUSAND Allied aircraft that were drawing off over HALF of all Germany's total air strength for the defense of Germany.

I give full credit for the tremendous fighting that the Russian soldiers went through for 4 years. I just want to make it clear that the western allies made it possible for the Soviets not only to defeat the Germans in Russia but to carry the war back into eastern Europe and to Germany itself, and faster than if there was no lend lease aid.

And lastly, the Soviet marshalls admitted that it was the American wheeled transport that enabled them to keep up the pace of their 1944 and 1945 offensives. So yes, the Soviet Army, excluding the tank combat units, literally did "ride to berlin" in american vehicles.

---

I give you a lot of numbers. It is your choice - trust or not in that numbers. But I can say "ride to berlin" in german vehicles (9% of all auto was captured in a fight).

Regards,
moi

[Ed Cogburn]

Originally posted by moi:
http://www.automarket.nnov.ru/arhive/2002/n3/5.phtml

---

Hi, moi

For those of us who can't read Russian, in general what does this website say?

[moi]

This site described history of Gorkovskii zavod. Numbers below was placed in my answer from this site (amount of production in 1941-45)

Regards,
moi

[Ranger-75]

I'll get back to this next week. I have too much CGSC work to catch up on this week.

By the way, in 1940, in ONE year, the US produced over 4 MILLION cars, Not trucks, and that was before they wereat war.