Naval Combat

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

ORIGINAL: Froonp
One thing would be cool to help making naval moves would be to make the sea areas better seen at zoom 1 and 2 maybe, and to have the stand out from the next better.

- To tell one from the next, why not having the sea area borders thicker when you are at zoom 1 (the smallest hexes), and why not zoom 2 too.

- To make one sea area stand out from the next, why not having all the sea hexes of the sea area either darken / lighten / highlighted, when the mouse is over one of its hexes ?

Instead of modifying the whole hex, how about changing the center dot instead? [Though I promise nothing, this is just a change to your suggestion.]

You mean modifying the center dot of EACH hex of the highlighted sea area I presume ? Only one hex would be useless I think.
Modifying the center dot of each hex of the highlighted sea area, either making it another color, another size, or another shape, whatever the way you do it, would be good to make the sea area stand out out of the next ones, when at zooms 1 or 2.

[trees]

I don't have too much of an opinion on what the task force marker should say on it. I think I would just like to be able to double click on one and see the entire contents in a pop-up window. Did the Royal Navy send out the battlecruisers to chase the Bismarck, or did they send the line battleships? In other words I would just look at the ships themselves.

[wworld7]

ORIGINAL: trees

I don't have too much of an opinion on what the task force marker should say on it. I think I would just like to be able to double click on one and see the entire contents in a pop-up window. Did the Royal Navy send out the battlecruisers to chase the Bismarck, or did they send the line battleships? In other words I would just look at the ships themselves.

In the quest (aka "hunt") for the Bismark, The Royal Navy sortied everything that could float and sent aloft everything that could fly.

It was critical that she be caught.

Flipper

[bredsjomagnus]

Top left - Total attack
Top center - Minimum movement points (in orange circle)
Top right - # of carrier air units
Bottom left - Total anti-aircraft
Bottom center - Minimum range (in yellow circle)
Bottom right - Total bombardment

Can´t the defence factor be next to the attack factor, like attack/defence (i.e 42/12) or something like this? Just an idea.

[Froonp]

Can´t the defence factor be next to the attack factor, like attack/defence (i.e 42/12) or something like this? Just an idea.

The defense factor is a ship by ship factor. Addig them all, or making an average of them has little value.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

Can´t the defence factor be next to the attack factor, like attack/defence (i.e 42/12) or something like this? Just an idea.

The defense factor is a ship by ship factor. Addig them all, or making an average of them has little value.

To expand on Patrice's comment, the naval defense factor is used only if the naval unit has become the target of an attack. If there were 10 naval units in a combat, it's quite possible that only 4 of them would become 'targets'. Targeted naval units have to undergo a die roll against their defense factor, which determines whether they sink, are damaged, or escape unscathed.

So, convoys are very vulnerable (almost certain to be sunk or damaged when targeted) and heavily plated battleships are favored to survive. Summary statistics aren't very informative.

By contrast, when defending from air attacks, the anti-aircraft factors are totaled; when firing on enemy ships or shore positions, the attack strength and bombardment strenths are totaled, respectively.

[Froonp]

So, convoys are very vulnerable (almost certain to be sunk or damaged when targeted) and heavily plated battleships are favored to survive. Summary statistics aren't very informative.

To expand on Steve expansion of my reply [:D], I'd say that Convoys are not [:-] "almost certain to get sunk or damaged when targeted" by a sunk or damaged result, they are certain (remove "almost").

They have a defense factor of 10, and the ship must roll more than its defense factor to survive the result inflicted, which is impossible with a d10.

The Yamato has a defense factor of 0, so it always resist to the damage result inflincted to her, and the Iowas have 1, having only 10% chance of suffering the inflicted result.

A resisted "Sunk" result becomes a "Damaged" result, a resisted "Damaged" result becomes an "Abort" result, and a resisted "Abort" result becomes a "half Abort" result.

Now, who will expand on my expansion over Steve's expansion over me ??? [:D]

[Mziln]

The key word to what Patrice is saying is "resists"...

 
From the RaW
 
11.5.8 Surface naval combat
 
Roll a die for each target. If you roll the target’s defense value or less, it suffers the result. If you roll more than its defense value, it suffers the next worse result - an ‘X’ becomes a ‘D’; a ‘D’ becomes an ‘A’ and an ‘A’ becomes a ‘1/2 A’.
 
SiF option 9: The defense value of a TRS or an AMPH is half its printed value.
 
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So the Yamato with a defense factor of Zero will not sink with the first X result but it will be damaged. If in the same combat round the Yamato receives:
 
A second X (it would go down to a D); or
Two D results (would go down to two A results which equal a D result);or
Four A results (would go down to four 1/2 A results equal a D result).
 
Which would sink her as two D results equal a X result.
 
 

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

So, convoys are very vulnerable (almost certain to be sunk or damaged when targeted) and heavily plated battleships are favored to survive. Summary statistics aren't very informative.

To expand on Steve expansion of my reply [:D], I'd say that Convoys are not [:-] "almost certain to get sunk or damaged when targeted" by a sunk or damaged result, they are certain (remove "almost").

They have a defense factor of 10, and the ship must roll more than its defense factor to survive the result inflicted, which is impossible with a d10.

The Yamato has a defense factor of 0, so it always resist to the damage result inflincted to her, and the Iowas have 1, having only 10% chance of suffering the inflicted result.

A resisted "Sunk" result becomes a "Damaged" result, a resisted "Damaged" result becomes an "Abort" result, and a resisted "Abort" result becomes a "half Abort" result.

Now, who will expand on my expansion over Steve's expansion over me ??? [:D]

Ah, but I didn't say "by a sunk or damaged result" did I? For instance, it could have been an Abort result they were targeted for.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: Mziln

The key word to what Patrice is saying is "resists"...

 
From the RaW
 
11.5.8 Surface naval combat

Roll a die for each target. If you roll the target’s defense value or less, it suffers the result. If you roll more than its defense value, it suffers the next worse result - an ‘X’ becomes a ‘D’; a ‘D’ becomes an ‘A’ and an ‘A’ becomes a ‘1/2 A’.

SiF option 9: The defense value of a TRS or an AMPH is half its printed value.

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So the Yamato with a defense factor of Zero will not sink with the first X result but it will be damaged. If in the same combat round the Yamato receives:

A second X (it would go down to a D); or
Two D results (would go down to two A results which equal a D result);or
Four A results (would go down to four 1/2 A results equal a D result).

Which would sink her as two D results equal a X result.

I'm sorry to correct you Mzlin, but the above is not entirely true.
You forgot that a ship who suffered an A result, is no more available for new damage.
So, if a ship takes a D result, and resists, this becomes a A result, and the ship is no more available for taking damage, it is gone and must abort at the end of this round of combat.

Quote from the rules :
*******************************
11.5.8 Surface naval combat
Combat results
You can choose the same unit to suffer more than one result, unless it is already destroyed or has suffered an ‘A’ result.
*******************************

[Mziln]

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From the RaW naval combat results table

11.5.8 Surface naval combat

Combat results

The combat results are:

A - Your unit aborts. At the end of the combat round, return it to base according to the return to base rules (see 13.4). Turn the aborted unit (and any cargo) face-down.

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Cross referencing the column and the row gives you your combat results. There may be a number of ‘A’ results, some ‘D’ results and some ‘X’ results as well.

The combat is simultaneous - both sides should work out the results they inflict before anyone implements them. However, the active player rolls for the damage of the defending player’s ships first. you must implement all ‘X’ results first, then all ‘D’ results and, finally, all ‘A’ results.

For each combat result you inflict, the owner selects a target to suffer that result. For every 3 surprise points you spend, you can select the target instead of your opponent (see 11.5.6).

You can choose the same unit to suffer more than one result, unless it is already destroyed or has suffered an ‘A’ result.

‘X’ and ‘D’ results happen immediately.

However, you only implement ‘A’ results (including unsuccessful ‘D’ results and double ‘1/2A’ results) at the end of this round of combat.

All units aborting to the same port can abort together if you wish. If an aborting unit was damaged, put it into the damage pool after it successfully aborts. Put any cargo on a damaged and successfully aborted TRS, onto the production circle to arrive as a reinforcement in the next turn.

[Froonp]

Yes, the unit aborts at the end of the combat round, but as the rule I quoted in post #90 is saying, you can't apply a second combat result on a unit that suffered an "X", or an "A" result.

So I wanted to correct you, because you said that

Two D results (would go down to two A results which equal a D result)

and that cannot happen. When you apply the first "D", if the ship resist, it takes an "A", and hence it can't be applied another result.
You also wrote that

Four A results (would go down to four 1/2 A results equal a D result).

Which cannot happen neither, because if the ship receives the first A, and resists, it makes an half A. Then when it takes the second "A", either it fails to resist, in which case it aborts, or it successfully resists and takes another half A. those 2 1/2A make a full A, as you said, and then the ships fall's under the rule I quoted in post #90, and cannot be targetted again.

[Froonp]

However, you only implement ‘A’ results (including unsuccessful ‘D’ results and double ‘1/2A’ results) at the end of this round of combat.

Implementing the result means that the ships actually leaves and return to base.

Suffering the result means that the ship has ben selected for a given result, and has either resisted so it suffered a lesser result, or not resisted, in which case she suffered the initial result,

I think that you are confusing both, which leads to our disagreement.

[Mziln]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

Yes, the unit aborts at the end of the combat round, but as the rule I quoted in post #90 is saying, you can't apply a second combat result on a unit that suffered an "X", or an "A" result.

So I wanted to correct you, because you said that

Two D results (would go down to two A results which equal a D result)

and that cannot happen. When you apply the first "D", if the ship resist, it takes an "A", and hence it can't be applied another result.
You also wrote that

Four A results (would go down to four 1/2 A results equal a D result).

Which cannot happen neither, because if the ship receives the first A, and resists, it makes an half A. Then when it takes the second "A", either it fails to resist, in which case it aborts, or it successfully resists and takes another half A. those 2 1/2A make a full A, as you said, and then the ships fall's under the rule I quoted in post #90, and cannot be targetted again.

It may not be targeted in that combat round but can be in following combats.

It is possible with 11.4.6 Interception.

Any units that stop go into the sea-box like any other naval move (see 11.4.2). There is no interception combat, but there may be naval combat in that sea area in the naval combat step (see 11.5). If you are returning to base (see 11.4.1 (c) and 13.4) you cannot stop in the sea area. Instead you must try to fight your way through.

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Yamato receives a X down to a D.

She is intercepted and has two A results down to two 1/2 A (which is equal to single A) result. Her status is now D + A.

She is intercepted again and is inflicted with two 1/2 A results. Her status is now D + A + A or 2 D or X and she sinks.

[Froonp]

Yamato receives a X down to a D.
She is intercepted and has two A results down to two 1/2 A (which is equal to single A) result. Her status is now D + A.
She is intercepted again and is inflicted with two 1/2 A results. Her status is now D + A + A or 2 D or X and she sinks.

I had not thought about such a scenario, well done Mzlin [&o]. The Yamato being intercepted 2 times, after having fought a battle, and each time suffering damage... Wow, this is the hunt for the Bismarck [;)]

This makes me puzzled about whether 2 A results really equal to a D result. In fact I think this is wrong, but I have no rule quote to support this, nor do I find rule quote to support your assessment. I had never thought about that.
Could you tell me where this is said ?

In fact I simply think that A results are not cumulative. The first one makes the ship "imune" to further damage, and the ships flees. And if he suffers another A result in an interception, IMO this is just an extra Abort. I don' tthink that Abort add to aborts to make a damage result.

[Mziln]

This is the interesting part, as you probably know in the naval combat results table you can find…

_______________________________________________________________________________________________

Combat results

1/2 A - No effect unless the same unit suffers two ‘1/2 A’ results in one round of combat. Two ‘1/2 A’ results become an ‘A’ result.

_______________________________________________________________________________________________

And as you said there is no “2 ‘A’ results become a ‘D'”.

BUT, the only reference to 2 ‘D’ becoming an ‘X’ is in option 18: (Bottomed ships). So does 2 ’D’ equal an ‘X’ only apply to “Bottomed ships”? Or does 2 lower results equal the next greater result (a reversal of the resist roll)?

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Option 18: (Bottomed ships) when applying results against units in a port, an ‘X’ result (or 2 ‘D’ results) only destroys the target if you roll less than or equal to half its defense factor (the second roll if the unit is destroyed by 2 ‘D’ results). If your roll lies between half and the full defense factor, put the unit in the construction pool instead of the force pool. A carrier plane (CVPiF/SiF option 56) on a bottomed CV ( PiF Option 28:and its pilot) is still destroyed. Convoy points can never be bottomed —they are always destroyed.

_______________________________________________________________________________________________

[Froonp]

BUT, the only reference to 2 ‘D’ becoming an ‘X’ is in option 18: (Bottomed ships). So does 2 ’D’ equal an ‘X’ only apply to “Bottomed ships”? Or does 2 lower results equal the next greater result (a reversal of the resist roll)?

It is not the ionly reference to this

Quote from the rules :
****************************************
11.5.8 Surface naval combat
(...)
Combat results
D The unit is damaged. Put a damage marker on the unit. If the unit is already damaged, it (and any cargo on it) is destroyed instead.
****************************************
But this does not mean that 2 lower results equal the next greater result.
2 A are not equal to an D.

A ship who suffered an Abort, and who is intercepted and takes another Abort, simply Aborts again.

[Mziln]

Ah ha! I missed that since I was searching for 2 'D' or '2 D'.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

Bump, so this doesn't disappear.