The WITM Super-mod thread

[kokubokan25]

Ok, i decided put all information over this mod on this thread and also my petitions of help..

This mod is for PBEM use only and momentarily the ground combat is limitated to North Africa, Malta, Sicily, Creta, Rhodes and Continental Italy.

Urgent request:

1-Need a "time to arrival" table of italian/German LCU units between january 42-january 43 and the same to british/commonwealth units and where arrive.
2-Need a composition of a typical division italian/german (armoured, infantry, artillery) in "game format" like this:

GER Infantry squad (number)
GER Engineer squad (number)
81mm motar (number)
etc...

3-Need also a "time to arrival" table to AIR units in both sides.
4-Need a correct Italian/German/British command structure (please Nemo![:D])
5-Need the correct deployment of both sides in Africa front in january 42.

Problems without solution to date

-I cannot change the HQ in land units. Example: I put the 60th Sabratha italian infantry division near Benghazi and assigned to an HQ named DAK. When click on the "DAK" name to change, in spite i have anothers HQ of the same level like "Sicilia Commando", "CS Commando", etc, the information screen not show any other HQ and i don't know the reason.

I think is all for now.
Any help and suggestion is welcome!

I will post more dates of the mod and the present development of the project later on.

[Captain Cruft]

It would be a good idea to post a link to this thread from the thread on the main forum. A lot of people don't come to the Scenario Editor section ...

For the HQ problem, there is a fixed set of slot numbers which represent the "command HQs". You must assign units to one of the HQs in this list.

Axis:-

002 (restricted)
003 (restricted)
004
005
007 (restricted)
008
020
027

Allies:

100 (restricted, port bases assigned to this HQ will have large hard-coded supply requirements)
101
102
103
104
105
106
107 (restricted)
108 (restricted)
110 (restricted)
128 ("Soviet")
130 (restricted)
134 (restricted, port bases assigned to this HQ will have large hard-coded supply requirements)

[Iron Duke]

Problems without solution to date

-I cannot change the HQ in land units. Example: I put the 60th Sabratha italian infantry division near Benghazi and assigned to an HQ named DAK. When click on the "DAK" name to change, in spite i have anothers HQ of the same level like "Sicilia Commando", "CS Commando", etc, the information screen not show any other HQ and i don't know the reason.


Check what type are these HQ's -in stock commands such as Norht,Central,South Pacific HQ's are all type 109 . Command Hq's have to be in the 100 range with the range added to it ie 109 is a command Hq with a range 0f 9 hex's
see chpt 3.6.1. LOCATIONS GENERAL ATTRIBUTES in the editor manual

Hope this helps

cheers

[m10bob]

Here are all details of the USAAF in the Med theatre, with OOB's, leaders, dates of arrival,etc.

http://www.milhist.net/usaaf/mto.html

[FeurerKrieg]

Regarding the all deep water hexes for sub combat -

The only exception there I think is IF any Axis subs will arrive on-map west of Gibraltar, they should have to run the gauntlet of shallow water south of Gibraltar. That was always a tense run for sub commanders and it should be so in the game as well.
If no subs are arriving west of the strait, then it doesn't matter.

[Andy Mac]

OK I will have a crack at that mysterious beast know as British Armour in the desert !!!!

10th Armoured Div (previously 1st Cav Div) Palestine until 4/42 then moved to North Afrika

8th Armoured Brigade (throughout 42)
9th Armoured Brigade 10/41 - 3/41 then 11/42 - 5/43
133rd Lorried Infantry Bde 9/42 - 11/42
10th Indian Bde 3/42 - 6/42
161st Indian Bde 6/42 - 7/42
7th Motor Bde 8/42 - 9/42

(I woud give them 1 Inf and 1 Armoured Bde throughout 42 and leave it at that)

1st Armoured Div 11/41 - is a similar story 2nd Armoured Bde was a constant the Infantry moved about a lot between Support Gps, Guards Bdes etc so again 1 Inf Bde, 1 Armoured Bde and suppport troops)

6th Armoured Div (Arrival in West at say Gibralter at 10/42 ? 26th Armoured Bde and 38th (Irish) Bde so 1 Inf and 1 Armoured Bde plus Divisional troops.

7th Armoured Div varied a lot again the basis for 42 is 1 Inf and 1 Armoured Bde plus support I would probably give it 22nd Armoured Bde and keep 4th as an independent light Armoured Bde arriving 6/42 but it depends on whether it is Bde or Divisonal forces you want.

8th Armoured Div 8/42didnt deploy as a complete Divison only 23rd and 24th Armoured Bdes were deployed and usesd as independent armoured forces so I would have 2 independent Bdes rather than the Divison

4th Mixed Division 8/42 in Gib as well 2 Inf and 1 Armoured Bdes

So in summary

I would have at start

1st Armoured Div (1 Inf and 1 Armoured Bde plus HQ in Egypt)
7th Armoured Div (1 Inf and 1 Armoured Bde plus HQ in Wester Desert)
10th Armoured Div (1 Inf and 1 Armoured Bde plus HQ in Palestine - you need to restrict this formation somehow to stop it deploying to Egypt)

Independent Force
1st Army Tank Bde
32nd Army Tank Bde
9th Armoured Bde

Also depending on scale consider operating 2 - 3 Armoured Car Regts as independent recon forces 11th Hussars and 4th South Africans operated in this way from the start

with coming as reinforcements

4th Lt Armoured Bde 5/42 (it is present before that but is covering for the missing 7th Armoured Bde in 7th Armoured Div)
23rd Armoured Bde 8/42
24th Armoured Bde 8/42
25th Armoured Bde 10/42 - At Gib
6th Armoured Div 10/42 - At Gib

Depeneding on how far East you go into Iraq you may need to deploy 1st Indian Armoured Div which has 2 (weak) Armoured Bdes and an Inf Bde throughout most of 42) but again it would need to be restricted to stop it deploying into the desert.

I would ignore 1st Armoured Bde as it deployed in a lot of Divisons as Bdes moved around.

I am not sure about other British Armour with 1st Army in the West Blade force came from 6th Armoured I think

Andy

[kokubokan25]

Nothing seems to work.

[kokubokan25]

ORIGINAL: Feurer Krieg

Regarding the all deep water hexes for sub combat -

The only exception there I think is IF any Axis subs will arrive on-map west of Gibraltar, they should have to run the gauntlet of shallow water south of Gibraltar. That was always a tense run for sub commanders and it should be so in the game as well.
If no subs are arriving west of the strait, then it doesn't matter.

For now the german subs arrive directly to La Spezia, bypassing the Gibraltar strait problem.
Continue testing and decide later on.

[kokubokan25]

To Andy and M10bob. Thanks.
 
Which units to add is another problem. For now i only add GREAT units, this mean divisions.
The british use normally some brigades detached from great units and german also then some of this units must be included.
But again, i think this question must be corrected later on because the first is get a beta version playable.
 
 

[Nemo121]

Ok with the caveat that this would be MUCH easier and more accurate information if we were beginning from December 1940 ( which is when a lot of the info is most accurate as that was the "start point" for this war)...

As of January 1st 1942....

Chief of Staff Italian Army: Roatta - was replaced early January by Ambrosio...
Air Force COS: Pricolo to November 42 then Fougier.
Navy COS: Riccardi.

Theatre Commands directly subordinate to COS Italian Army:
Army of North Africa and Libya: uner Bastico

We also had the Army Group West, Army Group Abyssinia and Army Group Greece and Albania but I don't think you are modelling them???


Army HQs: I am going to ignore those which weren't in North Africa in the year in question...
i) 5th Army... Stationed in the rear following being smashed by the British offensive of 40-41. Commanded by Carraciolo di Feroleto.
ii) 1st Army fought in Tunisia in February 43.... Not sure exactly when it arrived.
iii) 10th Army... Destroyed in Libya 40-41. May be useful as a shell command come 42. Commanded by Tellera.



Air Commands:
I only have general basing details on the 16 Italian Squadra which existed during the war. I can provide his but an authority on the Italian airforce would have the detail you wan... If a general overview is useful let me know and I'll give it.



Italian Divisions:
I am unclear if you want to model the fighting in Sicily/Italy. I would support such modelling ( in addition to a full-length campaign) so I'll mention them briefly. Let me know what u need.


Armoured.
131 Centauro In action in North Africa 1s Jan 42.
132 Ariete - transferred from Balkans Novermber 42.
133 Littorio - transferred from Italy in January 42


Motorised Divisions.
101 Trieste. Present in North Africa from August 41.
102 Trento. present in NA from Jan 41.


Infantry Divisions
1 Superga. NA from November 42
4 Livorno - Garrison duty in Italy from July 40.
6 Cuneo - available for redeployment from Balkans from July 41.... spread about many Greek holdings.
7 Lupi Di Toscana - garrison in Italy.
10 Piave - Garrison in Italy and France... Candidate for redeployment.
11 Brennero - In Balkans.
12 Sassari - In Balkans.
13 Re - In Balkans.
14 Isonzo, 15 Bergamo - In Balkans.
16 Pistoia - NA from June 42.
17 Pavia - NA from January 42.
18 messina - balkans.
19 Venezia - balkans.
20 Friuli - largely devoted to garrisoning Corsica.
21 Granatieri di Sardegna - Balkans.
22 Cacciatori delli Alpi - Balkans.
23 Ferrara - Balkans.
24 Pinerolo - Balkans.
25 Bologna - North Africa from December 40.
26 Assietta - Italy and Sicily.
27 Brescia - North Africa from June 40.
28 Aosta - Sicily.
29 Piemonte - Aegean Islands.
30 Sabauda- Sardinia.
31 Calabria - Sarinia.
32 Marche - Balkans.
33 Acqui - Aegean from December 40.

well that's enough to give you a taster of a few taskings of Italian divisions. It represents about 1/3rd of the divisions present in 1942.

I know where all the Italian units are as of December 1940 - when the war in North Africa really picked up but I do not know where they were on the arbitrary date of 1st January 42.


As to the TO&E of a typical "North African" style Italian division at the beginning of 1942 ( his changed as 42 progressed):
Each division would have comprised at least :
216 infantry squads ( more if we are counting HQ units as squads)
144 Light MG (7.7mm calibre)
72 12.7mm MGs
80 x 20mm AAA
72 x 47mm ATG
24 x 81mm mortar
12 x 75mm field gun
12 x 75mm howitzer
12 to 24 x 100mm howitzer
Engineers: Approximately 12 combat engineer squads.
Approximately 120 45 mm mortars.


You then have to allow for the fact that very few of these units actually were at anything close to full strength and decide on how you want to model their motorised transport capabilities. Even the 1940 pattern truck-borne divisions in the Italian army were NOT actually capable of moving themselves with their own organic truck component. They had to borrow trucks from the logistics arm. Since WiTP doesn't model extempore cross-attachments you are probably better acting as though those truck assignments are permanent in order to create true motorised divisions.

[Iron Duke]

Hi Fremen

could you post shots of the units from the database [ one of each hq and one of unit ]

how did you create the scenario? - did you copy one of the excisting scenarios? which one?

did you copy over in both database and scenario editors?

cheers

[Andy Mac]

Nemo are you sure about Ariete I remeber it being involved in Gazala I think you may have Centauro and Ariet mixed up ?

[Nemo121]

Andy,
 
You are right... I was looking in the wrong place... Took down the time of destruction ( or at least reduction to the size of a couple of battlegroups) as the time of entry into NA.
 
In reality it began arriving late January 41 but wasn't really potent until it added the 132nd Tank Regiment to its muster later in 1941. Thanks for the catch.

[Andy Mac]

CW Divs

1st South African Div (Egypt)
2nd South African Div (Egypt)
6th Aus Div (Left early 42)
7th Aus Div (Left Early 42)
9th Australian Div (Egypt)
2nd New Zealand Div (Egypt)
2nd Indian Div (8/42 - Iraq)
4th Indian Div (Egypt)
5th Indian Div (Cyprus) Leaves theatre 10/42
6th Indian Div (At Start Basra)
8th Indian Div (Mosul at start)
10th Indian Div (Syria)
12th (SDF) Div (Sudan - 2 Bdes only)
1st African Div (Ethiopia/Somaliland)

British Divs

5th Div (Syria 3/42)
44th Div (Delta 5/42)
51st Div (Delta 8/42)
50th Div (Iraq)
56th Div (11/42 Iraq)
70th UK Div (Until 2/42)
78th Div (1st Army)
4th Mixed Div (1st Army)

Independent Bdes (all at start)

201st Guards Bde
3rd Indian Motor Bde
Greek Bde
Free French Demi Bde
Polish Carpathian Bde


Polish Army of East (Iraq 9/42)
3rd Polish Div
2nd Polish Army Tank Bde

[Andy Mac]

For British, NZ and Aus Divs use WITP TOE for British Inf Divs (so including the Arty) and add a Divional Recon Sqn of 20 Armoured Cars and 4 Bren Gun Carriers

Indian Field Divs so 4th Indian/ 5th Indian/ 8th Indian and 10th Indian should have standard TOE's per WITP plus additional Arty and Div recon

Total 9 Batteries each of 2 Troops of 4 25 pounders or 4.5" guns

Total 72 integral tubes per divison apart from that standart TOE and 2 lancer Sqns for Diviosal recon each sqn 8 Armoured Cars

[pauk]

greetings...

Here is a link for Armies in WW II:

http://www.niehorster.orbat.com/000_admin/000oob.htm

you can find also German and Italian troops / TOE in this site:


http://www.niehorster.orbat.com/019_italy/__italy.htm

i can not claim that data on this site are 100 % correct but i think this could be a good start.

hope this helps

[Andy Mac]

Italian Arty should be rated highly everything I have read says how good they were

[kokubokan25]

ORIGINAL: Iron Duke

Hi Fremen

could you post shots of the units from the database [ one of each hq and one of unit ]

how did you create the scenario? - did you copy one of the excisting scenarios? which one?

did you copy over in both database and scenario editors?

cheers

Here, and the follow post you find.
Copy the 15 scenario from stock game and modify always (if possible) over existing units/devices/etc..

[kokubokan25]

2nd

[kokubokan25]

and third