Arty response times, who likes them, who doesnt?

[m10bob]

ORIGINAL: Alby

ORIGINAL: m10bob

"I know what you're getting at, Alby -- you want to petition Mike Wood to make some adjustments, right?

IF that's your agenda, let's make sure "


Just tired of self-appointed hall monitors Alby.........IMHO, your thread was a good one. I don't feel anybody needed to seek a motive for it............
That's one of the reasons folks don't post here like they did.
They were driven off............
(don't look for a "smiley face" on this one.)



There's that smell again.............................[:-]

huh????
[&:]

[Dragoon 45]

Not sure if the response times are historically accurate as far as length of time goes, but again the question of how long a turn is has a bearing on it.  I do believe that the US should have faster artillery and CAS response than anyone else, but what should that time factor be?  Modern Artillery (155mm) strives for first rounds down range in 90 seconds from the call for fire using the latest in computerized fire control.  Then also pre-planned fires are quicker to get than calling for fire on an estimated position.  I seem to remember that the average time from call for fire to rounds down range in WW II for the US as being somewhere around 3-5 minutes depending on type of tube and also whether it was a preplanned target or not, but I can not recall where I read that.
 
I have never been happy with the amount of pre-planned targets allowed in the game.  Historically each platoon leader would have three or four pre-planned targets for his little sector of the action.  Even squad leaders sometimes preplanned targets especially when in the defense.  Most call for fire missions adjusts off a preplanned target, adjustments of 1000 yds or more were not that uncommon with field artillery.  Then also for each battery of artillery or platoon of mortars there would be at least one FO Team directing its fire.  And that FO Team Chief would pencil in a number of targets on his fire support overlay on his map and also give a copy of it to the FDC which would work out the azimuth and range in advance for each one.
 
Just my thoughts.  If things are changed that is okay or it is okay if they stay the same.

[Alby]

ORIGINAL: RERomine

Just to throw a twist into this discussion, I'm currently playing a PBEM game, with a mixed force of Germans and Italians and have a response time of .2 on 14 out of 16 guns. The other two are a lowly .4. Average experience is 75.

What year are you playing?

[RERomine]

ORIGINAL: Alby

ORIGINAL: RERomine

Just to throw a twist into this discussion, I'm currently playing a PBEM game, with a mixed force of Germans and Italians and have a response time of .2 on 14 out of 16 guns. The other two are a lowly .4. Average experience is 75.

What year are you playing?

April, 1945

[Alby]

ORIGINAL: RERomine

ORIGINAL: Alby

ORIGINAL: RERomine

Just to throw a twist into this discussion, I'm currently playing a PBEM game, with a mixed force of Germans and Italians and have a response time of .2 on 14 out of 16 guns. The other two are a lowly .4. Average experience is 75.

What year are you playing?

April, 1945

Hmm the Germans experience is down in that year or do you have the ratings manually set?
forgot to ask what version you are playing...

[RERomine]

ORIGINAL: Alby
Hmm the Germans experience is down in that year or do you have the ratings manually set?
forgot to ask what version you are playing...

v8.403. The it was a mixed force of Germans and Italians, despite the fact they were at war in 1945. My guns were Italian, 25pdrs. Seems like the response times follow the guns.

[KG Erwin]

I apologize for coming off as too harsh. My buddies (I hope) understand my POV. It wasn't my intent to try to squelch discussion. Sorry. [:o]

[RERomine]

Shouldn't apologize for voicing your opinion. I have a feeling those who might disagree with it still respect it.

[m10bob]

ORIGINAL: RERomine

Shouldn't apologize for voicing your opinion. I have a feeling those who might disagree with it still respect it.

Nobody takes exception to Glenn's opinion. He is a respected member of the forum.
The exception I take is when I feel somebody has been condescending (sp?)to other respected (and productive) forum members.
If we had a new member here posting silliness, that might be something to call quarter on, but long time members as involved as (say, Alby), should not be (IMHO) responded to like one of the newer members, needing censure, or guidance............
Just a matter of wording...that's all................

[Alby]

Glenn and I are ok, he just thinks I am always up to something....LOL
[:D]

[vahauser]

m10bob,
 
I disagree.  It should make no difference who the poster is or how much "seniority" he has.  If a poster is posting something just to pass the time of day or just to see his words in print or just to relieve his own personal boredom, then he should be called on it no matter who he is.
 
 

[Alby]

ORIGINAL: vahauser

m10bob,

I disagree. It should make no difference who the poster is or how much "seniority" he has. If a poster is posting something just to pass the time of day or just to see his words in print or just to relieve his own personal boredom, then he should be called on it no matter who he is.

Are you saying thats what I was doing??
[&:] [:-] [8|]

[Riun T]

I got a question on this: what factors are required to have this game not combine the fire control radio communications with the command COMM,cause in reality they were always seperate channels and frequencies, with HQ command having president but not overall radio comm with all lesser ranked and dispersed units in the field. Arrty units had their channel, tanks command units sometimes would be dual equiped with both UHF,and VHF sets but budding into some other branches radio frequencies without call signs and pre-codes for the days traffic, u might never get relayed or transfered with your "out of branch,out of command priority," message in time to do anything,,,,,, so quite gripping about Arrty delay responce times and enjoy working around its faulty aspects and be happy that the game gives u any artty besides preassigned targets!!!! come on guys the games turn is only 3 minutes,,, if u think u could breach "COMMANDCOMM, or ARRTY plot for real in that time frame,,, YOUR DREAMING!!

[RERomine]

ORIGINAL: m10bob

ORIGINAL: RERomine

Shouldn't apologize for voicing your opinion. I have a feeling those who might disagree with it still respect it.

Nobody takes exception to Glenn's opinion. He is a respected member of the forum.
The exception I take is when I feel somebody has been condescending (sp?)to other respected (and productive) forum members.
If we had a new member here posting silliness, that might be something to call quarter on, but long time members as involved as (say, Alby), should not be (IMHO) responded to like one of the newer members, needing censure, or guidance............
Just a matter of wording...that's all................

I was just pointing out that rational opinions are a very personal thing and can be neither right or wrong. That being the case, I see no point in apologizing for it. If someone has a different opinion than I do, I respect that opinion as being personal to that person, even though I know it's WRONG since it's not my opinion [:D]

[RERomine]

ORIGINAL: Riun T

I got a question on this: what factors are required to have this game not combine the fire control radio communications with the command COMM,cause in reality they were always seperate channels and frequencies, with HQ command having president but not overall radio comm with all lesser ranked and dispersed units in the field. Arrty units had their channel, tanks command units sometimes would be dual equiped with both UHF,and VHF sets but budding into some other branches radio frequencies without call signs and pre-codes for the days traffic, u might never get relayed or transfered with your "out of branch,out of command priority," message in time to do anything,,,,,, so quite gripping about Arrty delay responce times and enjoy working around its faulty aspects and be happy that the game gives u any artty besides preassigned targets!!!! come on guys the games turn is only 3 minutes,,, if u think u could breach "COMMANDCOMM, or ARRTY plot for real in that time frame,,, YOUR DREAMING!!

This is true. Short of calling for Immediate Suppression on a target, if it actually hits the target, there typically are spotting rounds that are called in and adjusted. This all takes time before the FFE is called. Anything hitting in the less than 1.0 seems very fast.

[h_h_lightcap]

IMHO-----The gAME SHOULD ALLOW for many more preplotted target hexes---maybe one to two per company and the default amount. The arty delay should be upped a bit .1 seems silly except in the preplotted hex, with the understanding that the Americans and British shoul have the lowest response delay BY FAR.

Because some iof this discussion smacks of the same old German-centric thinking----"there is no way the Americans should have beaten the germans.....shermans sucked and tigers rule....Blah Blah Blah" Battle of the Bulge anyone???? TO be accurate all meeting engagements and American advances/assaults from 1944 and later should have 4-1 or greater American pts and JABOS flying around in good weather.


ALBY----IN SUMMARY: MANY MORE PRE-PLOTS, more arty delay -----Thanks for bringing it up and thanks for ENHANCED!!!



REMEMBERING THE ALAMO---HH

[KG Erwin]

Timeout called:

Ok, guys, thanks, but let's not get sidetracked.  Alby and I are good friends, so we tend to pick on each other from time to time.  [;)]

Alright, let's play ball!

PS to hh lightcap -- I love that Vonnegut quote. What book is that from?

[KG Erwin]

For RE Romine, are you referring to onboard mortars or offboard arty for that 1.0 delay?   I keep my 60s right behind the front line, so it doesn't seem unreasonable to get fire put down within less than a minute of the request. 

As I've said, I'm spoiled by that 0.1-0.2 response time, and, yes, I'm more than a little prejudiced in favor of  the Americans.  I've made that obvious.  However, the game was programmed that way long BEFORE I came aboard.  My personal influence was simply in TOE layouts, that's all. See my thread on "Personal Agendas." My mission statement is there. [;)]

[RERomine]

ORIGINAL: KG Erwin

For RE Romine, are you referring to onboard mortars or offboard arty for that 1.0 delay?   I keep my 60s right behind the front line, so it doesn't seem unreasonable to get fire put down within less than a minute of the request. 

As I've said, I'm spoiled by that 0.1-0.2 response time, and, yes, I'm more than a little prejudiced in favor of  the Americans.  I've made that obvious.  However, the game was programmed that way long BEFORE I came aboard.  My personal influence was simply in TOE layouts, that's all.

Funny that you brought up the mortars because I've been thinking about those. The short distance to the target would cut into the travel time of the round, but the problem I have is these move mortars move. If you don't know with some degree of accuracy where you are, it's difficult to put rounds on target quickly. The jungle throws in even more complexity. Firing unit doesn't know exactly where they are and it makes hitting the target difficult. Small spotting rounds might be difficult to identify and adjust with other explosions going off. These, I would be inclined to believe are less than 1.0, but certainly not .1 or .2.

In general, I don't like the concept of artillery being able to move and then fire indirectly the next turn. There is a lot of set-up that has to occur before this happens, including the location determination previously mentioned. While not positive, I think the Hip Shoot is a more modern practice.

[KG Erwin]

The late Gene Sledge was a 60mm mortarman, and in "With the Old Breed" he mentions that during fire exercises the instructor had a stopwatch, and the competition was to see which mortar team could set up and lay fire the quickest.  Unfortunately, Mr. Sledge didn't give actual timings.  [:(] 
 
The implication, though, was that it became a matter of seconds, not minutes, in setting up and delivering accurate fire.