OOB for India Home Defense

[GaryChildress]

The Niehorster site has the following for the OOB of forces in India. It's the best and most complete OOB I can find for them so far. Unfortunately its for 1939. However, I can only imagine, if anything, that the OOB understates the true strength of the Indian home defense forces as no doubt more were mobilized by December 1941. Therefore it seems to me like it would be somewhat uncontroversial to use it as a starting OOB for defense forces in India in December 1941. Surely I wouldn't be overstating the strength of them and since they aren't present at all in the game as it stands, it would be better than nothing at all.

Thoughts, opinions?






Source: http://www.niehorster.orbat.com/017_bri ... /army.html

[m10bob]

Here is another Gary...

http://home.adelphia.net/~dryan67/orders/isf.html

[GaryChildress]

ORIGINAL: m10bob

Here is another Gary...

http://home.adelphia.net/~dryan67/orders/isf.html

Thanks. I saw your post on the Commonwealth OOB. Not being very savvy on the British and Commonwealth OOBs, however, I was a little perplexed by the nomenclature. For instance it says:

Baria State Forces: Bombay District - Baria, Gujarat Agency
Headquarters
Baria Ranjit Infantry: Devgadh Baria

Is this unit a battalion, company, regiment or brigade?

I sort of assume it must be a battalion? [&:]

That's basically why I'm relying on the site I posted above, it sort of caters to dummies like me who need everything spelled out. [:(]

[GaryChildress]

Probably what I will end up doing is representing each military district as a separate division located in the closest base to that district. Trouble is, if I don't make them static units, they will no doubt start showing up in Burma before too long.

[el cid again]

Many units will have been sent to other places. Some units will have been disbanded/combined. Others mobilized.
Am working on this for RHS and already added some units.

Note that some units are not really available for WWII ops - and are not even on the map (notably in Afghanistan in a bit of a "terrorist" type op)

[GaryChildress]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

Many units will have been sent to other places. Some units will have been disbanded/combined. Others mobilized.
Am working on this for RHS and already added some units.

Note that some units are not really available for WWII ops - and are not even on the map (notably in Afghanistan in a bit of a "terrorist" type op)

I'm wondering, however, if by keeping things at the district level, in other words each district being represented as a division, if that wouldn't serve as an enduring way of keeping the units permanent.

While units from the Bombay district, for instance, may have been disbanded, combined, or sent to other places, I would imagine that the Bombay district as a defensive district probably remained throughout most of the war in one form or another. My proposal is to represent only the district and not the individual units in the district.

[el cid again]

That is possibly an elegant compromise. I went the other way - and am in big trouble slot wise.
But I love the "chrome" of historical names! Also - players are actually able to send units where they went - if they know and care.

Many nominal units were not units in any meaningful sense at all. Possibly the most glamorous is the case of the Calcutta Light Horse - not formed up in decades - a social club no less - which actually conducted a special op in Goa - disabling a German merchant ship illegally supporting submarines - completely unofficially - so the Brits could deny responsibility if they were caught! You can find quite wonderful paper names of organizations which have a real history - and no active manpower - and utterly no equipment!

[Andy Mac]

The only issue is a lot of the districts actually formed units and provided Bdes for overseas service India is a real nasty thing to try and model.

There are only really 2 ways to do it unfortuantley

1. At macro level are the number of Bdes broadly right (you cannot really look at divisions because bdes move around so much)
2. Is internal security broadly correct.

In total throughout the war the Indian Army produced

7 Armoured Bdes (at least 1 was deception)
3 Cav Bdes (all became other bdes so discount them)
2 Motor Bdes
86 Inf Bdes
3 Burma Bdes
2 Parachute Bdes
11 Frontier Bdes (the area commands primarily reffered to by Gary above)

Now from this pool came

4th 8th and 10th Divs ME plus 2 Motor Bde's
Iraq and Iran - 2nd and 6th and 12th Div plus an Armoured Div of 2 Bdes

So remove at least 18 Inf/ 2 Motor and 2 Armoured Bdes anyway

I think when last I looked at EOS India gets about 48 - 50 Combat Bde equivalents plus 10 Base forces each with a Bn attached so say another 3 Bdes

And the fortresses probably add another 4 or 5 Bdes

So c 50 Inf Bdes and 2 Armoured Bdes plus 1 Para Bde and 7 or 8 Frontier Bde equivalents are represented in game already (under strength Divs count as 3 as they have the TOE to Build) 

Add in ME forces and at MOST the allies are missing c 18 Inf, 1 Para and 2 Armoured Bdes

BUT 7th UK Armoured is never withdrawn and 267th Indian Armoured had very limited shelf life so all things being equal the armour is probably ok as is in game

Now given the double counting of some Bdes as they changed names/roles (at least 5 I can positivly identify renamed themselves so would be double counted) etc at most you would be arguing another 3 ish fortress type static Bdes in the north to represent the area commands and perhaps a few more Inf Bdes although there was significant renaming and re organisng of Bdes.

Could I argue for another 10 Bdes probably identifying which ones would be dammed difficult. The only obvious error I have seen in EOS which is mirrored in Stock is 19th Ind Div which was formed in 1st October 41 and should probably be a 1/3 shell Div based in Madras at start.
 
But thats a timing difference not an absolute.

The Indian Army is a dammed difficult beast to model.

Andy

[treespider]

Anyone familiar with "India's Army" by Major Donovan Jackson?

Amazon had this in the editorial comments -
Description -
COVERS ALL UNITS AND CLASSICS ENLISTED IN INDIA'S ARMY AND PRESENTS THE HISTORY AND GLORY OF REGIMENTS OF INDIA'S ARMY UP TO THE BREAK OF THE SECOND WORLD WAR.


So I went ahead and ordered it....just curious as to what I am actually going to receive.

[Andy Mac]

Chris Kemptons three part Loyalty and Honour is a better source OMO its in three parts covering the IA from 39 - 47 and covers Divs Bdes and Regts
 
Donovon I have read in a bookshop somewhere but I didnt buy it as it was not organised as source material tyhe way Kemstom is a fun read though

[el cid again]

What is the slot number of 19th Division? I don't see it.

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

Chris Kemptons three part Loyalty and Honour is a better source OMO its in three parts covering the IA from 39 - 47 and covers Divs Bdes and Regts

Donovon I have read in a bookshop somewhere but I didnt buy it as it was not organised as source material tyhe way Kemstom is a fun read though

Thanks for the info...

[Andy Mac]

3194 in my version Cid

[el cid again]

Thanks. Looking at it.

Revised for x.40.

That is planned to change series 6x scenarios to Level 7 -
unless we decide to stay with Level 6.

The x.40 suffex indicates that this level is coordinated for Level 5 and 7 with the revised mini-maps in 7.

I have concerns about the defense of India - and have added a number of garrison units. This will similarly help.

[Andy Mac]

As always with Indian Divs its a real pain
 
During 41 and 42 the DIv operated with 48th, 49th, 47th, 62nd, 64th, 98th, 9th and 99th Inf Bdes at various points !!!! losing Bdes to 17th Div and other duties all through the year hence why I would set it at 1/3 TOE and let it build up the Indian Army is very frustrating that way.
 
It was in theatre from start of 41 but concentrated during the Ceylon raid ordered to defend Madras
 
 

[Andy Mac]

OK because I am slightly bored tonight waiting for turns I did a little table

I cannot seem to get it formatted ok in summary India produced a total 90 Bdes of which 21 served in the ME throughout the war, 6 returned from the ME to India during the war (mostly 5th Div), a further 6 were lost in Malaya and 12 were Fronteir Bdes leaving combat 45 Bdes in India of which 4 were training Bdes. (please note a number of Bdes from Malaya and Burma were reconstitued they are listed at the end for interest but I have not counted them in the numbers above)

Interestingly they were almost all in theatre from late 41 in training or without full equipment

I hope this helps

Andy


Bdes which served in ME only

Middle East Bdes (21 in ME only)
3rd Motor Bde ME from 1941 after destruction remainder renamed 43rd Lorried Bde
5th Indian Bde 4th Div ME
11th Indian Bde 4th Div ME
10th Indian Bde 10th Indian Div ME
17th Indian Bde 8th Inf Div ME
18th Indian Bde 8th Inf Div ME
19th Indian Bde 8th Inf Div ME
20th Indian Bde 10th Indian Div ME
21st Indian Bde 10th Indian Div ME
24th Indian Bde 6th Div ME
25th Indian Bde 10th Indian Div ME
27th Indian Bde 6th Div ME
30th Indian Bde 2nd Div ME
31st Indian Bde 2nd Div ME
34th Indian Bde 12th Indian Div ME
38th Indian Bde Independent in ME
39th Indian Bde 12th Indian Div ME
40th Indian Bde 2nd Div ME
43rd Indian Bde 31st Indian Armoured Div ME
60th Indian Bde 12th Indian Div ME
90th Indian Bde 2nd Div ME

Middle East then India (6 returned to India from ME)
10th Motor Bde ME from 1941 reconstituted as 60th Bde in India
7th Indian Bde 5th Div ME then India
26th Indian Bde 6th Div ME/ then 36th Br Div
29th Indian Bde 5th Div ME then India
161st Indian Bde 5th Div
9th Indian Bde 5th Div ME then India

India Combat Bdes (63 or 59 if training Bdes excluded)
MALAYA (6)
6th Indian Bde 11th Div Malaya
8th Indian Bde 11th Div Malaya
12th Indian Bde 11th Div Malaya
15th Indian Bde 9th Div Malaya
22nd Indian Bde 9th Div Malaya
28th Indian Bde 9th Div Malaya

Frontier Bdes (12)
Bannu Bde Waziristan District
Gardai Bde Waziristan District
Khojak Bde Baluchistan District
Korhat Bde Korhat District
Landikotal Bde Peshawar District
Lushai Bde INDEPENDENT
Nowshera Bde Peshawar District
Peshawar Bde Peshawar District
Razmak Bde Waziristan District
Thal Bde Korhat District
Wana Bde Waziristan District
Zhob Bde Baluchistan District

Other Combat Bdes (45 or 41 if training Bdes excluded)
23rd Indian Bde 14th Div
36th Indian Bde 14th Div
88th Indian Bde 14th Div
1st Burma Bde 17th Div
2nd Burma Bde 17th Div
46th Indian Bde 17th Div
63rd Indian Bde 17th Div
44th Indian Bde 17th Dv and Malaya
45th Indian Bde 17th Dv and Malaya
16th Indian Bde 17th Inf Div
62nd Indian Bde 19th Div
64th Indian Bde 19th Div
47th Indian Bde 19th Div then 17th
48th Indian Bde 19th Div then 17th
49th Indian Bde 19th Div then 23rd Div
13th Indian Bde 1st Burma Div
32nd Indian Bde 20th Div
80th Indian Bde 20th Div
51st Indian Bde 20th Div then 25th Div
53rd Indian Bde 20th Div then 25th Div
37th Indian Bde 23rd Div
1st Indian Bde 23rd Div
74th Indian Bde 25th Div
109th Indian Bde 26th Div
4th Indian Bde 26th Div
71st Indian Bde 26th Div
73rd Indian Bde 32nd Indian Amroured
100th Indian Bde 34th Div then 17th Div
99th Indian Bde 34th Div then 17th Div
98th Indian Bde 34th Div then 19th Div
115th Indian Bde 39th Training Div
150th Indian Bde 39th Training Div
155th Indian Bde 39th Training Div
268th Inf Bde 43rd Armoured Div
14th Para Bde 44th Para Div
50th Para Bde 44th Para Div
55th Indian Bde 7th Div
89th Indian Bde 7th Div
14th Indian Bde 7th Indian Div
33rd Indian Bde 7th Indian Div
72nd Indian Bde Became British in 45
111th Indian Bde CHINDIT
77th Indian Bde CHINDIT
75th Indian Bde Independent Bde
84th Indian Bde Independent Bde
67th Indian Bde Training Bde

Redesignated Units (13 Bdes renamed from others)
77th Para Bde 44th Para Div (formerly Chindits)
106th Indian Bde Redesignated from 1st Burma
303rd Inf Bde Diversion
3rd Cav Bde Dispersed to form HQ for 252nd Armoured Bde
3rd Indian Bde Became Waziristan FF Bde
4th Cav Bde Dispersed to form HQ for 3rd Motor Bde
5th Burma Bde
1st Cav Bde Redesignated 155th Inf Bde
113th Indian Bde Redesignated 14th Bde
114th Indian Bde Redesignated 13th Bde
116th Indian Bde Redesignated 16th Bde
123rd Indian Bde Redesignated 23th Bde
2nd Indian Bde Became Rawalpindi Frontiir Bde

[DuckofTindalos]

Very cool, Andy![&o]

[m10bob]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

That is possibly an elegant compromise. I went the other way - and am in big trouble slot wise.
But I love the "chrome" of historical names! Also - players are actually able to send units where they went - if they know and care.

Many nominal units were not units in any meaningful sense at all. Possibly the most glamorous is the case of the Calcutta Light Horse - not formed up in decades - a social club no less - which actually conducted a special op in Goa - disabling a German merchant ship illegally supporting submarines - completely unofficially - so the Brits could deny responsibility if they were caught! You can find quite wonderful paper names of organizations which have a real history - and no active manpower - and utterly no equipment!

This was made into a movie with David Niven (IIRC) called ""The Silver Foxes"(or something similar..
BTW,IRL, Niven quit Hollywood was his career was just coming to bloom and joined the Brit Commandoes in real life..True hero joined other big names of the time in the war effort.
Could make an entire thread about such,(including the Nazi assissination flight that killed Leslie Howard..)

[Big B]

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress

The Niehorster site has the following for the OOB of forces in India. It's the best and most complete OOB I can find for them so far. Unfortunately its for 1939. However, I can only imagine, if anything, that the OOB understates the true strength of the Indian home defense forces as no doubt more were mobilized by December 1941. Therefore it seems to me like it would be somewhat uncontroversial to use it as a starting OOB for defense forces in India in December 1941. Surely I wouldn't be overstating the strength of them and since they aren't present at all in the game as it stands, it would be better than nothing at all.

Thoughts, opinions?

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

OK because I am slightly bored tonight waiting for turns I did a little table

I cannot seem to get it formatted ok in summary India produced a total 90 Bdes of which 21 served in the ME throughout the war, 6 returned from the ME to India during the war (mostly 5th Div), a further 6 were lost in Malaya and 12 were Fronteir Bdes leaving combat 45 Bdes in India of which 4 were training Bdes. (please note a number of Bdes from Malaya and Burma were reconstitued they are listed at the end for interest but I have not counted them in the numbers above)

Interestingly they were almost all in theatre from late 41 in training or without full equipment

I hope this helps

Andy

[snip]

Guys this is great work and info! [&o][&o][&o]

I am going to incorporate what ever I can of this in my next mod update 1.3 (there are not many slots left open though [:(])

B

[el cid again]

What a nightmare.

Should we list the 77th Para? 50th is already present.