OOB for India Home Defense

[JeffroK]

Its amazing how often the same information is trawled over in this forum.

Look back a few months and you'll find the same info, though i'll check Andy Mac's list to see if he found anything missed there.

tm.asp?m=1264376

[JeffroK]

To best show the Indian Army, use Brigades rather than Divisions, as there was a lot of movement, some formed as 2 Bde Divisions.
 
Gary,
 
Re the Baria Ranjit Infantry, I take everything on the site to be a Regiment (Unless noted otherwise), which in Commonwealth talk is equivalent to an American Battalion.

[el cid again]

These are fine comments. In response to a former thread on this matter, we have removed most Indian Divisions,
retaining only 5, 7, 19 and 20. We also got rid of brigades always in the Middle East.

Where is that regiment located, and when?

[Kereguelen]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

What a nightmare.

Should we list the 77th Para? 50th is already present.

77th Indian Brigade was formed as, and used as a LRP ("Chindit") brigade mostly, it became a Para bde only late in the war. However, this raises the question how to represent Chindit brigades in the game. They employed gliders in their operations, but I'm not sure if this would/should make them Para/Glider units in the game (as the game makes no difference between Para and Glider units).

[Andy Mac]

As an allied player I prefer to operate Divisions rather than Bdes to many small units make it harder to organise.
 
Between Base Forces, Divs to be built up, full reinforcement Divs and Fortresses in India and Ceylon the Indian Army should operate in Bde equivalents 6 Bdes Malaya, 6 Bdes returning from other fronts and 41 Fighting Bdes in India so total 53 Bdes available for deployment plus Lushai Bde. so 54 total now my recollection from last time I looked at RHS is that the mod had c 48 - 50 fighting Bdes or Bde equivalents (ignoring the Br Army Chindits but including each semi filled Div as 3 Bdes) So at most India is shorted by 1 or 2 Indian Army Divs in EOS
 
In addition for home defence only the Indian Army should have available 11 Frontier or Area Bdes which can be partially represented by the 10 Indian Base Forces (3 1/3 Bde equivalents - Each Base force has a Bn attached) and some in the Fortresses. I am not sure how many squads are in fortresses accross india at start but take the total divide by 108 to give the number add 3 and 1/3 and thats the total number of fronteir Bde already present.
 
If short of 11 add the requisite number of Brigades but make them fixed at say Delhi and Ahmabad or Lucknow.
 
 

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: Kereguelen

ORIGINAL: el cid again

What a nightmare.

Should we list the 77th Para? 50th is already present.

77th Indian Brigade was formed as, and used as a LRP ("Chindit") brigade mostly, it became a Para bde only late in the war. However, this raises the question how to represent Chindit brigades in the game. They employed gliders in their operations, but I'm not sure if this would/should make them Para/Glider units in the game (as the game makes no difference between Para and Glider units).

The way the Chindits moved is probably best represented as airborne. These units become essentially static on landing - and they could appear unexpectedly after a march by trails. This seems a reasonable simulation.
Still - should the unit be added? I do not see 77th at all.

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

As an allied player I prefer to operate Divisions rather than Bdes to many small units make it harder to organise.

Between Base Forces, Divs to be built up, full reinforcement Divs and Fortresses in India and Ceylon the Indian Army should operate in Bde equivalents 6 Bdes Malaya, 6 Bdes returning from other fronts and 41 Fighting Bdes in India so total 53 Bdes available for deployment plus Lushai Bde. so 54 total now my recollection from last time I looked at RHS is that the mod had c 48 - 50 fighting Bdes or Bde equivalents (ignoring the Br Army Chindits but including each semi filled Div as 3 Bdes) So at most India is shorted by 1 or 2 Indian Army Divs in EOS


The Allied organization is not different for EOS with respect to land or air. It differs for ships only insofar as a few carriers have changed status (3 CL became CVL, 1 Midway went away but 2 Essex replaced her and a sister too late for the scenario). So comments address all RHS scenarios. I do count the Chindits - wether or not they are classified as BA - as part of the Indian Army force (they never operated anywhere else and certainly they appear in India).
I don't have enough slots to add that many separate units - but - if I did - the main problem is sorting out the best combination of name/date of appearance/location. General comments are not as useful as specific suggestions.
If a division were to appear - what would it be - what components present need to be removed - and what are the potential conflicts (due to transfers in-out)? That question can be read plural or singular. Note that K has indicated that upwards of 8 brigades should NOT be available for operations due to commitment to non-WWII related issues.
And I have profound doubts that some of these troops were not required to maintain order - India was almost in rebellion - and the entire Congress party was in Jail (every last politician in the country was arrested after a conference). One book claims 160 battalions were required for this mission (The Atlas of Revolutions).


In addition for home defence only the Indian Army should have available 11 Frontier or Area Bdes


It is these units K indicated should NOT be in the OB. And I can show some were definitely not even on the map. Some do show up when they return from these missions. Look at the NW area and you will see them. One of them had a reserve contingency mission - and he recommended we add it - so we did.

which can be partially represented by the 10 Indian Base Forces (3 1/3 Bde equivalents - Each Base force has a Bn attached) and some in the Fortresses. I am not sure how many squads are in fortresses accross india at start but take the total divide by 108 to give the number add 3 and 1/3 and thats the total number of fronteir Bde already present.

If short of 11 add the requisite number of Brigades but make them fixed at say Delhi and Ahmabad or Lucknow.

[Andy Mac]

El Cid you should not count the Chindits as Indian Army only 2 Bdes were.

1 was African and the other 3 were British Bdes produced from the Bdes of 70th British Division recently arrived from breaking the siege at Tobruk so they are not part of the Indian army and should not therefore be counted against the Indian total. (Wingate didnt want Indian troops it was Ghurkas or Brits he wanted they broke up an Veteran Inf Div to make the Chindits)

Re internal security forces I would not neccesarily disagree although a lot of other state and nepalese army forces are also not included as they were on LOC duties

Andy

[el cid again]

I don't entirely disagree about the Chindits. I am a bit of a fan of Wingate (ever heard about how he met his wife?).
I should have said some of the units were IA. You are correct about the others.

[GaryChildress]

ORIGINAL: JeffK

To best show the Indian Army, use Brigades rather than Divisions, as there was a lot of movement, some formed as 2 Bde Divisions.

Gary,

Re the Baria Ranjit Infantry, I take everything on the site to be a Regiment (Unless noted otherwise), which in Commonwealth talk is equivalent to an American Battalion.

Hi Jeff, the biggest problem with that is lack of slots to represent all those units. I wish I could represent all the units seperately. I did that with the Thai airforce because of the same reason, units shifting commands and restructuring at various points. However, it is going to take 12 slots just to represent the regional divisions alone as it is.

[el cid again]

Note that in RHS - while we are not representing regional units in the semi-abstract sense Gary is - we do have the principle ones - by name. And often these are mere battalions - although often famous ones with colorful names and lineage (e.g. the Jat Regiment). And this too took slots. But these units - when they appear - really appeared there - and really had weapons and some significant fraction of their manpower. They were not paper units - which we do not show (e.g. The Calcutta Light Horse).

[JeffroK]

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress

ORIGINAL: JeffK

To best show the Indian Army, use Brigades rather than Divisions, as there was a lot of movement, some formed as 2 Bde Divisions.

Gary,

Re the Baria Ranjit Infantry, I take everything on the site to be a Regiment (Unless noted otherwise), which in Commonwealth talk is equivalent to an American Battalion.

Hi Jeff, the biggest problem with that is lack of slots to represent all those units. I wish I could represent all the units seperately. I did that with the Thai airforce because of the same reason, units shifting commands and restructuring at various points. However, it is going to take 12 slots just to represent the regional divisions alone as it is.

Gary,

I have created space by carefully removing Soviet units (I use up the reinforcements and try to leave the originals in place)

I believe the Soviet impact is so minimal that their slots could be put to better use.

So far so good, but as few trials get very far into the war I dont know if something odd will occur later.

[el cid again]

Bet on it. Quoting a Matrix programmer "practically every slot in the location file has hard code." While USUALLY that does not apply to blank slots, for the Soviets you cannot even be sure of that. The Soviet slots get replaced with other Soviet units - air and land anyway - and all the work we do on OB is then lost! Put something NON-Soviet there - you will lose it as well. Sorry. Not my system.

Further -

with respect for the conventional view -

the BIGGEST problem Japan has is the Soviets. Tojo said "Every night I go to sleep worried about what to do about Russia? Every morning I wake up - without an answer." Mess with Russia and you do something awful - you free Japan not to worry where it should. This is why the DEFAULT case in RHS is active Russians. We give passive scenarios for those with a different view - but it is a gross distortion of history to KNOW the Russians are not a problem. This is a time bomb - one with probably some ongoing incidents - and one that no one knows when it will get really nasty? Take away that uncertainty, you are giving the Japanese players a huge gift.

If nothing else dooms Japan to defeat, Russia does. In fact, the Russian invasion was the straw that broke the camel's back: there was no hope to run even the Manchu/Korean economy (which still worked) when that happened.
We tend to ignore that when we read about the end of the war. But it is on the record at the Imperial Conference.
The second atom bomb was not an issue (the decision was taken before it was dropped - news arrived during the conference after the decision was made). The decision was not made on the basis of "shock" from two bombs in close succession - implying we could drop more at will - as Groves intended. It was made on the basis of several factors - but the one that clearly meant the war could not continue was the rapid moving invasion on the mainland.
If players learn how to play well and play games late into the war, Russia will always proove a big problem for Japan - UNLESS Japan bottled it up West of Lake Baikal (the historical plan).

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: JeffK

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress

ORIGINAL: JeffK

To best show the Indian Army, use Brigades rather than Divisions, as there was a lot of movement, some formed as 2 Bde Divisions.

Gary,

Re the Baria Ranjit Infantry, I take everything on the site to be a Regiment (Unless noted otherwise), which in Commonwealth talk is equivalent to an American Battalion.

Hi Jeff, the biggest problem with that is lack of slots to represent all those units. I wish I could represent all the units seperately. I did that with the Thai airforce because of the same reason, units shifting commands and restructuring at various points. However, it is going to take 12 slots just to represent the regional divisions alone as it is.

Gary,

I have created space by carefully removing Soviet units (I use up the reinforcements and try to leave the originals in place)

I believe the Soviet impact is so minimal that their slots could be put to better use.

So far so good, but as few trials get very far into the war I dont know if something odd will occur later.

At some point in the distant past I mapped out most of the Russian upgrades. I could tell you the date that the slot changed and what was placed in the slot when it changed...

let me look... ahhh....here it is:

I think this was for CHS - so the locations and notes may differ from stock...

Code: Select all

Slot		Date		Unit Name		Location		Notes		August Storm
 2164		2-Jun		2nd Rifle Corps		Borzya				Assigned to 36th Army, Trans Baikal Front
 2165		3-Jun		86th Rifle Corps		Borzya				Assigned to 36th Army, Trans Baikal Front
 2166		4-Jun		5th Gds Rifle Corps		Tamsag		listed on mouse over at Borzya		Assigned to 39th Army, Trans Baikal Front
 2167		5-Jun		94th Rifle Corps		Tamsag		listed on mouse over at Borzya		Assigned to 39th Army trans Baikal Front
 2168		6-Jun		113th Rifle Corps		Tamsag		listed on mouse over at Skovordino		Assigned to 39th Army Trans Baikal Front
 2170		7-Jun		3rd Gd Artillery Division		Tamsag		listed on mouse over at Borzya		Assigned to 39th Army trans Baikal Front
 2171		8-Jun		6th Gd Artillery Division		Tamsag				Assigned to 39th Army trans Baikal Front
 2186		9-Jun		18th Gds Rifle Corps		Choybalisan		not represented on map by unit icon		Assigned to 53rd Army Trans Baikal Front
 2187		10-Jun		49th Rifle Corps		Choybalisan		not represented on map by unit icon		Assigned to 53rd Army Trans Baikal Front
 2188		11-Jun		57th Rifle Corps		Choybalisan		not represented on map by unit icon		Assigned to 53rd Army Trans Baikal Front
 2182		12-Jun		5th Gd Tank Corps		Tamsag				Assigned to 6th Guards Tank Army, Trans Baikal Front
 2183		13-Jun		9th Gd Mech Corps		Tamsag				Assigned to 6th Guards Tank Army, Trans Baikal Front
 2184		14-Jun		7th Gd Mech Corps		Tamsag				Assigned to 6th Guards Tank Army, Trans Baikal Front
 2185		15-Jun		3rd Gd Mech Corps		Tamsag				Assigned to Trans Baikal Front Forces
 2189		16-Jun		56th Rifle Corps		Skovordino				Assigned to 16th Army, 2nd far Eastern Front
 2190		17-Jun		5th Rifle Corps		Kuysyshevka				Assigned to 2nd Far eastern Front Forces
 2191		18-Jun		26th Rifle Corps		Imam		listed on mouse over at 68,31		Assigned to 1st Red Banner Army, 1st Far eastern Front
 2192		19-Jun		59th Rifle Corps		Imam		listed on mouse over at 68,31		Assigned to 1st Red Banner Army, 1st Far eastern Front
 2193		20-Jun		17th Rifle Corps		Suchan		listed on mouse over at Imam		Assigned to 5th Army, 1st Far eastern Front
 2198		21-Jun		45th Rifle Corps		Suchan		listed on mouse over outside of Vlad		Assigned to 5th Army, 1st Far Eastern Front
 2212		22-Jun		65th Rifle Corps		Suchan		listed on mouse over at Khabarovsk		Assigned to 5th Army, 1st Far eastern Front
 2216		23-Jun		72nd Rifle Corps		Suchan				Assigned to 5th Army, 1st Far eastern Front
 2217		24-Jun		39th Rifle Corps		Vladivostok				Assigned to 25th Army, 1st Far Eastern Front
 2218		25-Jun		87th Rifle Corps		Khabarovsk				Assigned to 1st Far Eastern Front Forces
 2219		26-Jun		88th Rifle Corps		Khabarovsk				Assigned to 1st Far Eastern Front Forces
 2201		27-Jun		10th Mech Corps		Suchan		listed on mouse over at Blago.		Assigned to 1st Far Eastern Front Forces
 2226		28-Jun		5th Army Art Div		Suchan		listed on mouse over at Vlad.		Not listed in August Storm, although 5th Army has a strong Artillery component
 2227		29-Jun		1st Banner Army Artillery Division		Imam		listed on mouse over at Suchan		See 5th Army Art Div
 2206		30-Jun		15th Army Artillery Division		Kuysyshevka		listed on mouse over at Blago.		See 5th Army Art Div
 2207		1-Jul		2nd Red Banner Army Artillery Division		Blagoviesk				See 5th Army Art Div
 

[el cid again]

Thanks. This is useful. However, it must be incomplete, and in two senses.

First, it does not show the air units. And they definitely do something similar.

Second, it appears not to account for some land units which show up in tests.

But it is very nice to know. Thank you again.

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

Thanks. This is useful. However, it must be incomplete, and in two senses.

First, it does not show the air units. And they definitely do something similar.

Second, it appears not to account for some land units which show up in tests.

But it is very nice to know. Thank you again.

First - I did not examine air units

Second - why don't you be just as genrous and and let us in on the secret of which land units are showing up which are not on this list

[JeffroK]

Thanks Treespider,
 
So , If I also mod the slot the unit upgrades to, say add better euqipment (or even the same old stuff), I can get around this process??

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: JeffK

Thanks Treespider,

So , If I also mod the slot the unit upgrades to, say add better euqipment (or even the same old stuff), I can get around this process??

On June 2, 1945 slot 2164 becomes the Soviet 2nd Rifle Corps with a predetermined (hard-coded) allotment of devices and the unit is placed in Borzya.

So if you mod slot 2164 - no matter what you put in it or where you locate it - on June 2, 1945 it comes the 2nd Rifle Corps and is moved to Borzya with the hardcoded device allocation

I did not test the ramifications of changing the slot to another nationality as I was looking at modding the Soviet OoB to reflect their historic capabilities. In earlier posts I mentioned how far short of units they are when compared to history....namely armor and artillery.

[JeffroK]

I have never made it to June 45 [:D]
 
I could work with the equipment changes, but not the TARDIS trip to Siberia
 
It would be nice, that if for all of the effort put in by modders to make this game credible and to improve on it, and make future sales possible, that they(being 2x3/Matrix) would provide some answers to this sort of problem.
 
 

[GaryChildress]

ORIGINAL: JeffK

I have never made it to June 45 [:D]

I could work with the equipment changes, but not the TARDIS trip to Siberia

It would be nice, that if for all of the effort put in by modders to make this game credible and to improve on it, and make future sales possible, that they(being 2x3/Matrix) would provide some answers to this sort of problem.

JeffK....a Time Lord??? [&o][&o][&o][&o] [:D]