ORIGINAL: sposfan
No sweat! Did you re-adjust your hook values, since each patch will write over your modded XML with the vanilla one.
Reliever's Appearances way too high!
Moderator: puresimmer
RE: Reliever's Appearances way too high!
Yes, I keep a copy of my edited XML file in another folder so it doesn't get overwritten. I will do some more testing tonight and let you know how it goes.
RE: Reliever's Appearances way too high!
OK, I know I'm late to the party here, but...
While there may be an issue with the code which controls when the starter gets pulled (and which I guess is fixed now), I think another contributer to this is that the AI has a tendency to use the #1 reliever a lot in cases where the starter gets pulled early. In real life, during the course of the regular season, when the starter gets pulled early, you will typically see the guys at the bottom of the bullpen get called in (except perhaps for playoffs and "must win" late season games). The #1 guy typically gets saved for another day, when the game is close in the late innings. I think this is a big contributer to the large number of innings that the #1 relievers are getting.
While there may be an issue with the code which controls when the starter gets pulled (and which I guess is fixed now), I think another contributer to this is that the AI has a tendency to use the #1 reliever a lot in cases where the starter gets pulled early. In real life, during the course of the regular season, when the starter gets pulled early, you will typically see the guys at the bottom of the bullpen get called in (except perhaps for playoffs and "must win" late season games). The #1 guy typically gets saved for another day, when the game is close in the late innings. I think this is a big contributer to the large number of innings that the #1 relievers are getting.
Bob
RE: Reliever's Appearances way too high!
I think that's a great point, bob. You are correct that Puresim will often bring in the #1 reliever in cases where the starter is knocked out early. When I look at the reliever priority list I tend to think that my #1 reliever (the best on the list) should be the setup guy in associations using the modern closer option.
Not to keep bringing up BBPro (it really did have a very nice setup and good solutions to a lot of issues), but it used a system where you could designate bullpen roles to your relievers. Thus, you could place that #1 reliever into the setup role and he would be used primarily there. Now, of course as was the case with a very many of BBPro's features, the concept was good but the implementation was not. The computer manager never really got it right based on your bullpen designations. But, maybe something like this could help tighten up bullpen usage in Puresim.
Not to keep bringing up BBPro (it really did have a very nice setup and good solutions to a lot of issues), but it used a system where you could designate bullpen roles to your relievers. Thus, you could place that #1 reliever into the setup role and he would be used primarily there. Now, of course as was the case with a very many of BBPro's features, the concept was good but the implementation was not. The computer manager never really got it right based on your bullpen designations. But, maybe something like this could help tighten up bullpen usage in Puresim.
RE: Reliever's Appearances way too high!
XCom, you can, in a fashion, do what you are talking about through the player usage card. I'm doing this from memory so bear with me, but I believe on the left side, about 1/2 way down, there is a pulldown menu where you can set a relievers role. The choices are (I think) use primarily as a setup, mopuo or long reliever. Granted this would only work for human controlled teams, but maybe Shaun can have the CM designate it's pitchers as well.
RE: Reliever's Appearances way too high!
Ahh, very cool. Thanks for the heads up, sposfan. There are so many facets to this game, I think I'll still be discovering little nuggets years from now. [:D]
Didn't get a chance to run any test seasons tonight, but hoepfully will run some tomorrow night and I'll keep you posted on my results.
Didn't get a chance to run any test seasons tonight, but hoepfully will run some tomorrow night and I'll keep you posted on my results.
RE: Reliever's Appearances way too high!
Ran a couple more seasons last night and this trend on lower reliever usage is holding up. In my three seasons with the new settings the highest usage for a reliever was 141.1 IP. Still a bit low on the number of appearances, I think max was around 65. My complete games seemed to have gone up just a touch...but overall good results with the new patch and the XML tweak.
ORIGINAL: XCom
Didn't get a chance to run any test seasons tonight, but hoepfully will run some tomorrow night and I'll keep you posted on my results.
RE: Reliever's Appearances way too high!
Is this with your modified hook value or with the as-shipped XML?
RE: Reliever's Appearances way too high!
Modified hook values. I may increase the starter hook a little to see if that brings CGs back down to where they were. Seems saves are down a touch too, so I don't want the hook modifer to be so low that we are seeing starters finish too many games at the expense of the saves numbers. But, overall these numbers are off by 10% or less so I'm nit-picking. [;)]
ORIGINAL: sposfan
Is this with your modified hook value or with the as-shipped XML?
RE: Reliever's Appearances way too high!
keep us posted!
RE: Reliever's Appearances way too high!
Hmmm...may have found something that was artificially altering the trends I thought I was seeing.
After simming another couple of seasons with increased hook values for starters I did not see CGs being brought back down to where they were before...in fact overall CGs continued to slowly increase. I thought that was strange, so I decided to try my tweaked XML on a new fictional association to see if the trend was being caused by something other than the XML lines. Lo and behold in the first season with the new association I had CGs way down and the reliever IP problem was back! I had one reliever pitch 67 games and 200+ IP. Back to square one...well, maybe.
I thought maybe it was the ratings that were causing this bullpen usage effect. When I looked at the pitchers in the new league and sorted them by EN I found that just about every pitcher with EN over 90 was less than 25 years old. And there were only a handful of pitchers in their "prime" years (27-31) with an EN rating in the 80s. So, then I went back to my previous test association with 10 years of history. Did the same pitcher sort by EN and now about 60% of the pitchers with EN over 90 are age 25-30. Those are the pitchers who are getting the increased number of CGs as they mature and become regular starters. Now, I think this directly affects the reliever usage. More starters with higher EN values means the starters pitch more innings and overall reliever usage goes down.
Is this what was causing the reliever results I thought were so good earlier this week? Not fuilly sure yet. I'm going to setup some auto play overnight tonight to sim as much history as I can with a new association to see how the stats change over time and see if I repeat the increased CGs and decreased reliever usage after season 4 or so.
If I do see the same trend then I figure the next thing to try is to increase the weights slightly for EN in the player generation lines for pitchers age 25-30 and decrease slightly for pitchers age 17-24. Hopefully smoothing out the distribution of EN ratings and maybe reducing the median value a touch. Anyway, let's see what happens with the test.
After simming another couple of seasons with increased hook values for starters I did not see CGs being brought back down to where they were before...in fact overall CGs continued to slowly increase. I thought that was strange, so I decided to try my tweaked XML on a new fictional association to see if the trend was being caused by something other than the XML lines. Lo and behold in the first season with the new association I had CGs way down and the reliever IP problem was back! I had one reliever pitch 67 games and 200+ IP. Back to square one...well, maybe.
I thought maybe it was the ratings that were causing this bullpen usage effect. When I looked at the pitchers in the new league and sorted them by EN I found that just about every pitcher with EN over 90 was less than 25 years old. And there were only a handful of pitchers in their "prime" years (27-31) with an EN rating in the 80s. So, then I went back to my previous test association with 10 years of history. Did the same pitcher sort by EN and now about 60% of the pitchers with EN over 90 are age 25-30. Those are the pitchers who are getting the increased number of CGs as they mature and become regular starters. Now, I think this directly affects the reliever usage. More starters with higher EN values means the starters pitch more innings and overall reliever usage goes down.
Is this what was causing the reliever results I thought were so good earlier this week? Not fuilly sure yet. I'm going to setup some auto play overnight tonight to sim as much history as I can with a new association to see how the stats change over time and see if I repeat the increased CGs and decreased reliever usage after season 4 or so.
If I do see the same trend then I figure the next thing to try is to increase the weights slightly for EN in the player generation lines for pitchers age 25-30 and decrease slightly for pitchers age 17-24. Hopefully smoothing out the distribution of EN ratings and maybe reducing the median value a touch. Anyway, let's see what happens with the test.
RE: Reliever's Appearances way too high!
Okay here is what I saw when I ran this extended test. Remember that this was on a 12 team fictional league with 60 man rosters.
First off let's look at how overall CGs varied over the first 10 seasons
2006: 370
2007: 393
2008: 410
2009: 380
2010: 430
2011: 442
2012: 461
2013: 483
2014: 502
2015: 495
As you can see there is a steady trend upward again as those original young players develop and become the top starters. There is about a 20% increase in CGs from the first few seasons to seasons 8-10. After that point the CG numbers seem to stabilize with overall results +/- 10% from the 2015 result over the next 15 seasons. This trend in the first 10 seasons has to mean less innings pitched in relief in general. Now let's look at some reliever trends.
Here are both the highest number of appearances and the highest number of innings by a reliever with less than 3 starts for the first ten seasons.
2006: 70 G, 169.1 IP
2007: 60 G, 158 IP (2 starts)
2008: 59 G, 152.1 IP
2009: 66 G, 172.1 IP (1 start)
2010: 64 G, 190.1 IP
2011: 64 G, 139.1 IP (1 start)
2012: 70 G, 176.1 IP
2013: 59 G, 171.2 IP
2014: 64 G, 174.1 IP
2015: 61 G, 136.1 IP
I can't really take anything away from this data. Even with the increasing trend in CGs, the results for the most worked relievers did not really trend down. It looks to me like I am right back where I started with several relievers each year being eligible for the ERA title. After 2015 the numbers seemed to be a little better but still seeing a reliever hit 160+ IP once in a while.
Not sure where to go from here on this one. Just might have to be one thing we have to accept and move on. [8D]
First off let's look at how overall CGs varied over the first 10 seasons
2006: 370
2007: 393
2008: 410
2009: 380
2010: 430
2011: 442
2012: 461
2013: 483
2014: 502
2015: 495
As you can see there is a steady trend upward again as those original young players develop and become the top starters. There is about a 20% increase in CGs from the first few seasons to seasons 8-10. After that point the CG numbers seem to stabilize with overall results +/- 10% from the 2015 result over the next 15 seasons. This trend in the first 10 seasons has to mean less innings pitched in relief in general. Now let's look at some reliever trends.
Here are both the highest number of appearances and the highest number of innings by a reliever with less than 3 starts for the first ten seasons.
2006: 70 G, 169.1 IP
2007: 60 G, 158 IP (2 starts)
2008: 59 G, 152.1 IP
2009: 66 G, 172.1 IP (1 start)
2010: 64 G, 190.1 IP
2011: 64 G, 139.1 IP (1 start)
2012: 70 G, 176.1 IP
2013: 59 G, 171.2 IP
2014: 64 G, 174.1 IP
2015: 61 G, 136.1 IP
I can't really take anything away from this data. Even with the increasing trend in CGs, the results for the most worked relievers did not really trend down. It looks to me like I am right back where I started with several relievers each year being eligible for the ERA title. After 2015 the numbers seemed to be a little better but still seeing a reliever hit 160+ IP once in a while.
Not sure where to go from here on this one. Just might have to be one thing we have to accept and move on. [8D]
RE: Reliever's Appearances way too high!
ORIGINAL: XCom
Not sure where to go from here on this one. Just might have to be one thing we have to accept and move on. [8D]
I don't think so. I believe, as I suggested earlier in this thread, that some tweaking to the logic which chooses which reliever to bring into the game would help a lot on this issue. When Mike Mussina gets knocked out of the game in the second inning, Joe Torre doesn't bring in Kyle Farnsworth no matter how rested he is. Maybe, just maybe, this makes sense in "game 7", but not in the middle of May. The AI almost always makes the equivalent of the Farnsworth for Mussina replacement.
Bob