OOB for India Home Defense

[el cid again]

This is entirely correct.

What is not clear to me is do we know all the dates on which units appear?

Unless we play past the last such possible date - and stock runs well into 1946 - we will not see the units. Only AFTER they appear can we ID their slot number. The code is invisible to us - and we agree as a condition of our licence when we buy and activate not to look with tools. So unless Matrix tells us in detail what slots are free - better follow the advice from a Matrix programmer - and assume "practically every" one is not free in the location file. There even appear to be slots coded for a different game.

[JeffroK]

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress

ORIGINAL: JeffK

I have never made it to June 45 [:D]

I could work with the equipment changes, but not the TARDIS trip to Siberia

It would be nice, that if for all of the effort put in by modders to make this game credible and to improve on it, and make future sales possible, that they(being 2x3/Matrix) would provide some answers to this sort of problem.

JeffK....a Time Lord??? [&o][&o][&o][&o] [:D]

No , K9.......

[GaryChildress]

ORIGINAL: JeffK

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress

ORIGINAL: JeffK

I have never made it to June 45 [:D]

I could work with the equipment changes, but not the TARDIS trip to Siberia

It would be nice, that if for all of the effort put in by modders to make this game credible and to improve on it, and make future sales possible, that they(being 2x3/Matrix) would provide some answers to this sort of problem.

JeffK....a Time Lord??? [&o][&o][&o][&o] [:D]

No , K9.......

K9? [&:]

[DuckofTindalos]

Nice Doggie...

[GaryChildress]

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Nice Doggie...

Oh yeah! Laser beam coming out the nose. He wasn't in many episodes though was he?

[akdreemer]

Reading this I whink what all one needs to is concentrate on the Indian Territorial Forces, not the Indian Army. The IT's were specifically a regional defence force for home defence. Until I get additional verifiable information I have decided to give each region one 4BN garrison style grigade with two btty's of artillery. Again, I ahve not made them static, but house rules should make them so.

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: AlaskanWarrior

Reading this I whink what all one needs to is concentrate on the Indian Territorial Forces, not the Indian Army. The IT's were specifically a regional defence force for home defence. Until I get additional verifiable information I have decided to give each region one 4BN garrison style grigade with two btty's of artillery. Again, I ahve not made them static, but house rules should make them so.

They were not static - but also should not leave the area they were in. Since we have no Indian state lines,
we might have a rule in hexes? 6? Something like that. But they would need an identifier to associate them with a place - in the unit name. "Bombay Brigade" or something like that.

The problem is that these units often are not available for operations for very different reasons:

a) They are FULLY committed to some other mission;

b) They have NO manpower or equpment

[The US state of Washington used to have a State Defense Force of 4 battalions - housed entirely in a tiny room the size of a closet at the National Guard Armorie in Seattle - and staffed by just 4 NCOs - these units lacked commanders, manpower or equipment of any sort - each had 1 sergeant. Yet there were Indian formations WEAKER than that - paper formations only.]

I prefer the mechanism of putting in identified units - at the time they formed up (even if at pertial strength) -
and NOT including units sent off the map for non-WWII related missions (e.g. hunting the Osama bin Laden of the time in Afghanistan). To arbitrarily put in units is to both duplicate units and to create fictional ones simultaneously.
India needs defense - but defense related to what it had - and what it had not mustered - or sent on a wild goose chase - was not available.

[Andy Mac]

I just finished a review of the Indian forces in India and actually I think Cids got it about right
 
I checked the at start forces and the 41 and 42 reinforcements and although I could quibble about Bde names etc and as a personal preference I would like more Divisons as its easier to manage in 43 44 when you are attacking he is pretty much bang on the field force is fine.
 
Re the forntier force There are 11 Indian Base Forces with an attached reinforced Bn of Infantry equating to about 5 Brigaeds of Frontier forces add in 3rd Inf Bde which is a FF Bde and at most you could argue for 4 or 5 more FF Bdes BUT that ignores the 6 Fortresses- I personally would probably give them 60 Indian Sqds each which IMO would actually make the Indian Army ORBAT right but I am quibbling at the edges.
 
There are a few Bdes missing from 43 and 45 I think (I am still checking) and I think the African Divs arrival time is wrong (agains still checking) but I do think for the rest its about right.
 
(I could argue for 267th Armoured Bde (Disbanded in 43) and 50th Indian Tank Bde to be in but then the allies get to keep 7th Armoured when they shouldnt - I would also argue for 5th UK div to be in or alterantively 5th Indian to be set to arrive in mid 42 - either is fine)
 
It is just about possible to argue for 10th Armies 2nd 6th and 12th Indian Inf Divs and 31st Indian Armoured Div and the Polish Army of the East to be available in Aden but if they were there Allied players would abuse them so actually I am not sure he is incorrect to ignore them - I suppose you could houserule it that these forces could ONLY be used to retake India but actually I think it is just easier to leave them out. (I ignore 4th 8th and 10th Indian Divs serving in ME and Italy as their removal would affect the rest of the war)
 
As I said I think its just about right now that 19th Indian Div has been advanced
 
Andy

[Andy Mac]

Cid not sure if you want this or not

3155 CW 3rd West African Bde 440415 -Should be 8/43 when it arrived in India - current date reflects arrival in Burma

3163 CW 11th East African Division 440515 - Should be 8/43 when it arrived in India - current date reflects arrival in Burma
3189 CW 81st West African Division 440815 - Should be 6/43 when it arrived in Ceylon - current date reflects arrival in Burma
3195 CW 82nd West African Division 440915 - Is OK

In total there were 10 Bdes so 81st had 2 because it lost 3rd WA Bde but 82nd had 4 bdes so I would tend to ignore that complication and ject move the dates

Andy

[Andy Mac]

Should Capetown have 1st SA Div it returned after the Desert to replace the newly formed 6th SA Armoured Div that went to Italy - it arrived back in 6/42

[Andy Mac]

OK Cid only 2 missing Indian Army Field Force Bdes that I can find missing
 
10th Indian Motor Bde was reconstituted as 60th Indian Bde 3/43 so I would another Inf Bde for that one
Lushai Bde (light establishment) 5/44
 
Apart from that and the conversion of 2 Chindit Bdes to Para in late 44 (which we cannnot deal with in game) I think India is done

[Andy Mac]

Actually ignore Lushai Bde Assam Regt covers that one you are way ahead of me

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

I just finished a review of the Indian forces in India and actually I think Cids got it about right

I checked the at start forces and the 41 and 42 reinforcements and although I could quibble about Bde names etc and as a personal preference I would like more Divisons as its easier to manage in 43 44 when you are attacking he is pretty much bang on the field force is fine.

REPLY: Thanks. But note it is the Forum and precursors to this thread - three of them - which "got it right" - not me. I only listened and culled the data.

Re the forntier force There are 11 Indian Base Forces with an attached reinforced Bn of Infantry equating to about 5 Brigaeds of Frontier forces add in 3rd Inf Bde which is a FF Bde and at most you could argue for 4 or 5 more FF Bdes BUT that ignores the 6 Fortresses- I personally would probably give them 60 Indian Sqds each which IMO would actually make the Indian Army ORBAT right but I am quibbling at the edges.

REPLY: Which fortresses?

There are a few Bdes missing from 43 and 45 I think (I am still checking) and I think the African Divs arrival time is wrong (agains still checking) but I do think for the rest its about right.

REPLY: Let us know.

(I could argue for 267th Armoured Bde (Disbanded in 43) and 50th Indian Tank Bde to be in but then the allies get to keep 7th Armoured when they shouldnt - I would also argue for 5th UK div to be in or alterantively 5th Indian to be set to arrive in mid 42 - either is fine)

REPLY: We ARE putting in the 5th UK division - in Level 7 it is the primary unit involved with taking Madagascar - and then it moves on to India. Since we cannot stop it moving anywhere - or disband it - it is just in. I am working on it now - and it can appear in Level 5 and 6 after Madagascar ops were historically over - at Aden. Otherwise, I agree - the 7th armored is balanced by the Indian units. It should matter if an armored division equivelent does not leave the theater.

It is just about possible to argue for 10th Armies 2nd 6th and 12th Indian Inf Divs and 31st Indian Armoured Div and the Polish Army of the East to be available in Aden but if they were there Allied players would abuse them so actually I am not sure he is incorrect to ignore them - I suppose you could houserule it that these forces could ONLY be used to retake India but actually I think it is just easier to leave them out. (I ignore 4th 8th and 10th Indian Divs serving in ME and Italy as their removal would affect the rest of the war)

REPLY: Perhaps we could put in one of them?

As I said I think its just about right now that 19th Indian Div has been advanced

Andy

Again - it is really your fault. Nit pick and I will add what is missing, correct what is wrong, etc. I cannot know - or check - everything alone.

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

Cid not sure if you want this or not

3155 CW 3rd West African Bde 440415 -Should be 8/43 when it arrived in India - current date reflects arrival in Burma

3163 CW 11th East African Division 440515 - Should be 8/43 when it arrived in India - current date reflects arrival in Burma
3189 CW 81st West African Division 440815 - Should be 6/43 when it arrived in Ceylon - current date reflects arrival in Burma
3195 CW 82nd West African Division 440915 - Is OK

In total there were 10 Bdes so 81st had 2 because it lost 3rd WA Bde but 82nd had 4 bdes so I would tend to ignore that complication and ject move the dates

Andy

This is lovely - complete with slot numbers. No problem fixing either dates - or making the divisions binary and square either. The data can do it - so we do it.

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

Should Capetown have 1st SA Div it returned after the Desert to replace the newly formed 6th SA Armoured Div that went to Italy - it arrived back in 6/42

No. Capetown is off limit to invasion - in RHS - so it needs no defense. UNLESS you think the unit might have invaded Madagascar or been sent to PTO. Once we give it to the Allies - it can go to Tokyo!

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

Should Capetown have 1st SA Div it returned after the Desert to replace the newly formed 6th SA Armoured Div that went to Italy - it arrived back in 6/42

No. Capetown is off limit to invasion - in RHS - so it needs no defense. UNLESS you think the unit might have invaded Madagascar or been sent to PTO. Once we give it to the Allies - it can go to Tokyo!

Otherwise, look for most of this in x.40 level - probably on time - 7 Dec 2006 - scenarios. I wanted India right (Nemo had me spooked it might get invaded - and so missing units seemed to matter)

[el cid again]

When did 10th Indian Motor Brigade form? Where? What was its OB? Or where and when should it enter the
map area - and at what OB? Or should it appear as a rump brigade and slowly build up - and be called 60th Infantry Brigade?

This unit was assigned to Paiforce in both 1942 and 1943 - showing up in OBlistings from 15 September 1942 at Baghdad. It was shown as located at "Malayar" - where is that? It was apparently in Northern Iran in 1943. This force was a contingency force in case the Germans broke out of the Caucasus. All this implies to me the unit is NOT available before the Paiforce formation loses that mission - presumably sometime in 1943. It could appear at Peshiwar (near Rawalpindi in the NE map corner) about April 1943 as a motor brigade.

I found the OB:

Central Indian Horse (King George V Own Horse)
Skinner's Horse (1st Duke of York's Own)
5th (Vaughn's) Frontier Rifles
10th Signals, 10th Motor Transport, 10th Ordnance
5th Light Ambulance

But also that it was still in Iran in September 1943 - and that the situation was complicated - involving Russian sponsored states not resolved until 1946.

Perhaps this unit should NOT be available in India at all?