game balance

[Die Kriegerin]

Well czerpak, didn't mean to piss you off, but I guess you pushed the wrong button...We Americans traditionaly love to fight...To counter your arguement...First, we can read intelligence reports, most point right up to FDR knowing of the coming attack, and ordering our carriers out of Pearl. We broke thier code months before, it was the same code we used at Corral Sea and Midway. I guess we didn't read those codes well either...Anzio, and Monte Cassino, well I did admit Clark was an idiot. But it was never the Americans stratagy to use the "Soft underbelly". And wasn't there some guy named Alexander in charge of that, he was a Brit, wasn't he?... Market Garden? In what class did "Monte" graduate from West Point?...And yes we won the war, bought and paid for it in cash. The United States of America spent more money in WW2 than all the other nations combined, Axis and Allied. The Nazi's may not have won the war with the U.S. neutral, but they sure wouldn't have lost... Enlighten me, what Nazi's graduated from West Point?...Poland, oh yes, the country formed from what was parts of Germany and Russia proir to WWI. Thats the other war the U.S won over there...As far as my education is concerened, I graduated with a History and Military Science degree in 1982.

Jon


P.S. I didn't mean to offend you. I had a few to many to drink that night, and was looking for a cyberroom brawl.

[davewolf]

Originally posted by czerpak
it seems I'm the only one with this opinion

Czerpak

You're not.

Jon

You should know that I respect you. Ed replied objective ('What waste?) But your reaction was personal and 'What cave did you roll out of czerpak?' sounds as if you took Czerpak's comment personally. Is this a 'patriotic' thing? Of course 'your' (U.S.) soldiers (commanders) couldn't be bad ones or anything like this?
As a German who don't use to forget those parts of history that I doesn't like at all I usually have more reserved relations with 'my country's' history than you seem to have.

Back to the discussion: Was it really that hard to win a war in which one side had an overwhelming material superiority? Example: Even if the Japanese had sunk all carrier vessels too at Pearl Harbor they wouldn't have had an earthly chance to win the war (against the U.S.) as long as the U.S. was willing to fight. How many battle ships, airfcraft, carrier vessels, tanks and so on could the U.S. build and how many ones the Japanes (not to mention the population)? And, as Czerpak mentioned and you certainly know, the war in Europe was mainly won by the Soviets.
Saving lives on the other hand is a very fine thing if you have the opportunity to do so! After the american civil war U.S. armies never had (really) to defend their homeland. If they would have had to defend New York against a Blitzkrieg advance they wouldn't have treated themselves to such 'war luxury', i.e. to stop an advance when facing the enemy and waiting for art. or air support to do the job. (Perhaps you'll say that U.S. armies never used such 'tactics'...)
And by the way in 1918 one new division arrived after another in France just to 'beat' an 'enemy' who had already used all his reserves. But that's a different topic. Anyway again was it that hard to win a war with a 4:1, 5:1 (or much more, I don't know) advantage? The longer the war lasted the bigger was the advantage.
All this doesn't mean that the U.S. has or had no brave soldiers or competent officers. But how good would their performance have been if they would have had to fight in a 1:1 situation? That was the 'quality' question, wasn't it?

By the way Polish (regular army) casualties in the German-Polish campaign 1939: 123000 dead and 133700 wounded (from a book from Janusz Piekalkiewicz).

That's just what I think, no offence.

Dave

[davewolf]

Originally posted by Ed Cogburn
Considering the still high cost of bandwidth, and at least here in the US, the lack of any impetus to introduce widespread high-speed net access, Americans at least shouldn't hold their breath for 3D avatars in cyberspace any time soon.

Ed

Quite right. Not soon. But who would have expected the Internet like it is today say 25 years ago? Not so many people I guess. Maybe '3d cyberspace' will become a rich people's thing. I hope not but probably...

Dave

[Rasputitsa]

Some defence of the British performance in WW2, while others were talking about ‘can do’ the British quietly got on and did. The merlin engine turned the mediocre P51 into the greatest fighter ever, the 17 lb anti-tank gun in the Sherman Firefly, produced a tank that could match the Panther in firepower. The prefabricated Mulberry harbours made the Invasion a logistical possibility in the first place, no good having more ordinance than everyone else if you can’t get it there. The Enigma code breaking (thanks to the Poles) was invaluable. The British and Canadians won a larger bridgehead on June 6th with less loss of life, partially due to specialised armour. No Allied nation had a monopoly on competence, or performance in WW2, but the Germans when fully armed and supplied, man for man, unit for unit, could handle any of them.
Play balance can be set within the game using help, or by small adjustments such as scenario start date. For example moving the start date of a campaign forwards, or backwards, can fine tune the balance, We can never satisfy all our expectations, but WIR should be keep as historically accurate as possible as it is flexible enough to be reset to play however you want it. Great game designed by those who ‘can do’.

[wsmith]

Interesting thread. Rasputitsa makes good points and I'd like to expand on them in the interests of maintaining US-Polish relations! Those of you who claim 'we' (USA) broke the Japanese code are wrong. Both the Japanese code and the German codes were broken by the British, as far back as 1926 in the case of the Japanese code.

At the beginning of 1941 the Brits had broken the 'Red' general Luftwaffe key and the 'Brown' used by the German beam navigation specialists. By Pearl Harbour, the UK is also reading two further Luftwaffe keys, the 'Light Blue' and 'Mustard'; they finish the year by breaking 'Brown II'. From time to time, four German army keys, two on the Eastern front, and two in North Africa are also routinely decrypted. The remarkable feats of breaking the main German Home Waters naval key, 'Dolphin', the Italian navy Enigma, the Abwehr Enigma key, the German railways key, 'Rocket' are also done by Pearl.

The Brits passed the baton for Pacfic code breaking (Japanese targetted) to the US in 1940, as they were forced to focus on German code breaking. The intelligence decryption techniques and methods that the US used to 'read' Japanese diplomatic cables prior to Pearl were British.

In regard to Enigma, it is common knowledge that the Polish provided the enigma machine to the British Secret Service in 1940.

Also, the Polish nation lost more citizens than anyone other state but Russia. Fact.

In a very real, it could be argued that the Polish provided more and lost more than any other nation in WW2.

[Chairman]

I thaught the Britts and French were a bit slow on attack and at least the Britts and French colonial troops were wery good in defence.

And what did that was the horrenduos losses during the WW1.
That more or less wiped out 1 or 2 generations.

Wich produces a kind of officers that wasn´t that inclined to go "over the top" and attack recklessly.

[Ed Cogburn]

Originally posted by wsmith

Also, the Polish nation lost more citizens than anyone other state but Russia. Fact.

Except Russia? Percentage wise, they lost more of their population than anyone else, including the Soviet Union. That's what I read.

In a very real, it could be argued that the Polish provided more and lost more than any other nation in WW2.

Agreed. Their suffering eclipsed all others except for the Jewish population of Europe..

[Ed Cogburn]

Originally posted by Rasputitsa
Some defence of the British performance in WW2, while others were talking about ?can do? the British quietly got on and did. The merlin engine turned the mediocre P51 into the greatest fighter ever, the 17 lb anti-tank gun in the Sherman Firefly, produced a tank that could match the Panther in firepower. The prefabricated Mulberry harbours made the Invasion a logistical possibility in the first place, no good having more ordinance than everyone else if you can?t get it there. The Enigma code breaking (thanks to the Poles) was invaluable.

I was never questioning British courage or skill, the British soldier of that time has my greatest respect, and the US is very fortunate to have such a long time ally, I was only pointing out that high losses from 4 years of war were putting pressure on the British command to avoid military operations that would involve large numbers of casualties.

The British and Canadians won a larger bridgehead on June 6th with less loss of life, partially due to specialised armour.

Now be fair here. The Brits didn't face a battled hardened 352nd German infantry division from the Eastern Front at the beaches of Gold, Sword or Juno either. Resistance was light on those beaches.

[Ed Cogburn]

Originally posted by Die Kriegerin
Poland, oh yes, the country formed from what was parts of Germany and Russia proir to WWI.

What does that mean?

You need to brush up on your Polish history before making such a statement. A Polish state as well as a distinct ethnic Polish population in Eastern Europe goes back more than a 1000 years.

[Ed Cogburn]

Originally posted by czerpak

why did US army had to use 4 times more war material to get the same result.

Because we could. I'll trade war materiel for American lives any day. You seem to think that expending materiel in exchange for human life is a bad thing, or something that says something bad about the US, and that other combatants wouldn't do this if they could, but I see it differently. They *would* have done this if they had been as lucky as America in having so many resources available. Other combatants had to be more efficient with their resources, and did so, but that doesn't mean the US could not have accomplished the same thing had we been without resources

although my opinion is different.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, even when they're wrong.

[Die Kriegerin]

Ed, I'm quite aware of the length of the Polish heritage, and where Poland is located... I want to apoligize to everyone, and to czerpak, for taking things to personal. Thank you Ed and Dave for being the calm, cool, and collective guys you are. Rare for a German, and a guy from Tennessee. "just kidding"

Jon

[czerpak]

Originally posted by Ed Cogburn


Because we could. I'll trade war materiel for American lives any day.

Sure, no doubt about it.

You seem to think that expending materiel in exchange for human life is a bad thing, or something that says something bad about the US, and that other combatants wouldn't do this if they could, but I see it differently. They *would* have done this if they had been as lucky as America in having so many resources available.

No, I dont think its bad. Sure they would.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, even when they're wrong.

I really like this one - you got me. Havent found good answer for that.

Other combatants had to be more efficient with their resources, and did so, but that doesn't mean the US could not have accomplished the same thing had we been without resources

You hit the point - I think whole discussion goes around this question. But thats something we will never known for sure and it seems that our opinions on that issue are slightly different. I dont see any point in going any further into it, unless you really want to.
Maciej

[czerpak]

Originally posted by Ed Cogburn



Except Russia? Percentage wise, they lost more of their population than anyone else, including the Soviet Union. That's what I read.

Agreed. Their suffering eclipsed all others except for the Jewish population of Europe..

These are well known facts. But I really didnt expect anybody here to cry on what my nation suffered in WW2. I would never argue who suffered more. I believe that even if any nation suffered just a single live because of war it is already one to much. I really do.

Maciej
p.s. when I use Poland or Poles as example it is only because I know bit more about my country history then I know about other countries.

[czerpak]

Originally posted by Die Kriegerin
Ed, I'm quite aware of the length of the Polish heritage, and where Poland is located... I want to apoligize to everyone, and to czerpak, for taking things to personal. Thank you Ed and Dave for being the calm, cool, and collective guys you are. Rare for a German, and a guy from Tennessee. "just kidding"

Jon

****, Jon, you just proved I was wrong in my opinion about you. Not to many guys here are able to apologize. I had my reply ready and know I have to delete it.
But for a sake of discussion I will answer, just have to remember not to use personal attacks
I hope I didnt go too far so far, but if I did - sorry.
Maciej

[czerpak]

Lets go bit by bit :

Well czerpak, didn't mean to piss you off

You did piss me off. I hate when people make such things personal. And I wouldnt expect guy with History diploma to act like this.

but I guess you pushed the wrong button...

I pushed right one - I learned lots of new things from this thread from different people

We Americans traditionaly love to fight..

Yes, and quite often you fight just for the sake of fighting. And you think something has to be BEST because it is american made. Not true.

We broke thier code months before, it was the same code we used at Corral Sea and Midway.

Really dont understand this one - you mean you had to breake your own codes ?

...And yes we won the war,

which one ? are we talking about the same war ?

The United States of America spent more money in WW2 than all the other nations combined, Axis and Allied.

We almost agree, just a small difference :
The USA MADE more money in WW2 than all the other nations combined

well I did admit Clark was an idiot

Yes, you did. But that means his supreme commanders were idiots, doesnt it ?

The Nazi's may not have won the war with the U.S. neutral, but they sure wouldn't have lost...

I think they would

Enlighten me, what Nazi's graduated from West Point?

I'm not sure now, recalling from memory, dont keep all books I read, but to name at least one : von Belov IIRC ( Hitler's adiutant)

..Poland, oh yes, the country formed from what was parts of Germany and Russia proir to WWI.

I save you comment on this one

WWI. Thats the other war the U.S won over there...

Do you really believe that ? Or you just want to piss me off...

I graduated with a History and Military Science degree in 1982.

So did I few years later.

I didn't mean to offend you

You didnt, dont worry.

regards
Maciej
p.s. quite a lot people did the job for me. Thanks.

[Lokioftheaesir]

Originally posted by Rasputitsa
Some defence of the British performance in WW2....

Rasputitsa and wsmith

When i critisise the brits during WW2 i am specifically pointing out the middle and upper echelons of the command structure. The British soldier, the royal navy, the techno's were all first class, if not the best, in what they did.
However the upper end of the command structure was (generally)rife with social climbers, uninspired nonentities and just plain twits. If it were not for the bravery and leadership of Tactical commanders hardly any advances would have occured.
Every nation has it's strengths at certain times in it's history.
Australian troops are known for their inovation and toughness but we certainly are not much chop with tank combat.
US forces at the time had awesome logistics and the best artillery/TacAir support in the world.
Aside from having few really good army commanders they were (in '44/'45) probably the best ballanced/trained/supported army on the planet.
A position the germans held from '39 to '42.
However, The most powerfull land army on the planet (on their own soil) would would be the Soviets from '43 on and after '45 there is no question of this.

As a matter of interest i have just finnished a work on the Korean conflict where ironically, superior quality British/Cw formations stood firm as many US formations 'bugged out' to the rear in panic.
Much of the fault here is also poor leadership from above as it was'nt untill Ridgeway took over that the US forces got a decent and determined commander.

Loki

[czerpak]

Originally posted by davewolf


As a German who don't use to forget those parts of history that I doesn't like at all I usually have more reserved relations with 'my country's' history than you seem to have.


Dave

Dave, I believe german people really suffered from that war. And all nations have something in history they would rather forget about. As I observe german attitude to what happened ( obviously if we forget such idiots like neonazis etc. and we have them here as well, amazing) I wish we had similar attitude to our history.
BTW have you heard about JEDWABNE ? thats small town where Poles murdered quite a lot of Jews, kids being burned out alive and such staff.
Maciej

[czerpak]

Originally posted by Ed Cogburn



What does that mean?

You need to brush up on your Polish history before making such a statement. A Polish state as well as a distinct ethnic Polish population in Eastern Europe goes back more than a 1000 years.

Ed, you're changing my opinion about Americans knowing nothing about european history. Are you particularly interested in Eastern Europe history or it's just a part of your wide-spread knowledge ?
Maciej
BTW. my origin is from a part which is now known as Ukraine (lots of fighting in XVII century, Cossacks together with Tatars has beaten us badly quite a few times). If you look at map you find a city called Czerkasy.

[Muzrub]

I go away for a few days and I miss all the action!- how unfair!

Bugger- is there chance I can say something to someone now who could find it offensive- or have I missed the boat?

[davewolf]

Originally posted by Die Kriegerin
Thank you Ed and Dave for being the calm, cool, and collective guys you are. Rare for a German, and a guy from Tennessee. "just kidding"

Jon

Maybe I'm no typical German (Hun).

And what about the guys from Tennessee?

Dave