Enhanced FV.1- Japanese Arty odd ranges

[omegaall]

Just been building a scenario and noticed that the Japanese Arty seemed to have wrong range values. Attached a list of what seems to be in error.
[font="Courier New"]
ID# __ Name ____________ real ______ MaxRng ____MaxRng
________________________ range(m) __ Current __ Correct
31 ___ 70mm Type 92 IG __ 2800 _____ 207 ______ 207
32 ___ 75mm Type41 IG ___ 6300 _____ 120 ______ 216
33 ___ 75mm Type 38 Hw __ 8250 _____ 216 ______ 221
33 ___ 75mm Type 38 Hw __ 11500 ____ 216 ______ 229
34 ___ 75mm T94 Mtn Hw __ 8300 _____ 231 ______ 221
44 ___ 75mm Type 90 _____ 13890 ____ 160 ______ 235
66 ___ 150mm Type 4 Hw __ 8800 _____ 225 ______ 222
68 ___ 105mm Type 91 H __ 10800 ____ 208 ______ 227
71 ___ 105mm Type 92 ____ 18200 ____ 223 ______ 246
184 __ 150mm Type96 Mt __ 11900 ____ 224 ______ 230
223 __ 150mm Type 38 H __ 5890 _____ 224 ______ 215[/font]

All range values were obtained from
Taki’s Home Page - IMPERIAL JAPANESE ARMY PAGE
http://www3.plala.or.jp/takihome/

[Alby]

I dont think we changed any ranges of the Japanese guns from what they were in 8.3
nice chart tho, I can use it.
except for you cannot enter a value over 231, so anything over that wont work

[omegaall]

ORIGINAL: Alby

I dont think we changed any ranges of the Japanese guns from what they were in 8.3
nice chart tho, I can use it.
except for you cannot enter a value over 231, so anything over that wont work

Wow.. BUT you can enter the MAX value of 231.
Besides that has little to do with some of these odd values currently there.

[Alby]

ORIGINAL: omegaall

ORIGINAL: Alby

I dont think we changed any ranges of the Japanese guns from what they were in 8.3
nice chart tho, I can use it.
except for you cannot enter a value over 231, so anything over that wont work

Wow.. BUT you can enter the MAX value of 231.
Besides that has little to do with some of these odd values currently there.

HUH?
thats what I said...Max value of 231 is the highest you can enter.
[&:]
those 'odd values' were not put in there by US, they have been there for who knows how long.
[:)]

[FlashfyreSP]

While we certainly tried to fix every error that we knew of, we didn't do a complete weapon-by-weapon review for accuracy; that would have taken a dedicated team, which we didn't have. There are probably many more "errors" in the weapon data sections, and some are simply "fudges" due to lack of adequate real data.

One thing to keep in mind: any range value of 213 or higher is 100 hexes or more, sufficient to reach most of the map. Offmap artillery units are assumed to be 3 hexes beyond the mapedge, regardless of the type. Range values of 220 and higher are only necessary for the 'counterbattery' action, which doesn't work very well to begin with.

Of course, we would certainly like to get the most correct data into the OOBs, but this task is made more difficult by the simple fact that we don't know where all the errors are.

[omegaall]

There are only 2 guns here that have a range in game terms greater then the max value of 231. That is a minor point BUT their current in game range is way too low to even suggest historical ratings.
44 ___ 75mm Type 90 _____ 13890 ____ 160 ______ 235
71 ___ 105mm Type 92 ____ 18200 ____ 223 ______ 246

Not to mention the fact that this gun,105mm Type 91, has a current in game range less than the standard 75mm Type 38 Howitzer.
68 ___ 105mm Type 91 H __ 10800 ____ 208 ______ 227
33 ___ 75mm Type 38 Hw __ 8250 _____ 216 ______ 221
This is the howitzer version in the Enhanced FV.1 MOD.

Though there is also the 75mm Type 38 Improved Howitzer with the greater range not in the MOD.
33 ___ 75mm Type 38 Hw __ 11500 ____ 216 ______ 229

Then there is the 150mm Type 38 Howitzer with a real range way less than the one in the game.
223 __ 150mm Type 38 H __ 5890 _____ 224 ______ 215

Clouding the issue re game rnges and counter battery fire, etc, does not alter the fact that the ranges need correcting in your published MOD.

As for finding the correct values the web site
Taki’s Home Page - IMPERIAL JAPANESE ARMY PAGE
http://www3.plala.or.jp/takihome/
Has been about for a while and was published here way back.
Not new at all.

ORIGINAL: FlashfyreSP

While we certainly tried to fix every error that we knew of, we didn't do a complete weapon-by-weapon review for accuracy; that would have taken a dedicated team, which we didn't have. There are probably many more "errors" in the weapon data sections, and some are simply "fudges" due to lack of adequate real data.

One thing to keep in mind: any range value of 213 or higher is 100 hexes or more, sufficient to reach most of the map. Offmap artillery units are assumed to be 3 hexes beyond the mapedge, regardless of the type. Range values of 220 and higher are only necessary for the 'counterbattery' action, which doesn't work very well to begin with.

Of course, we would certainly like to get the most correct data into the OOBs, but this task is made more difficult by the simple fact that we don't know where all the errors are.

[Goblin]

Were these brought up in the OOB Project discussion forums during the year that they were up?

Also, I primarily use websites for research, and find that they are often completely different from one to another. It may be possible that reference sources used by whichever OOB team(s) assigned these values before we got to them had different listings for the stats of these guns. I briefly perused the site you listed, but did not see a listing of his resources for the information. I am not doubting their accuracy, but what is to say that they are accurate, or if another reference site's/book's numbers are?

[Goblin]

Clouding the issue re game rnges and counter battery fire, etc, does not alter the fact that the ranges need correcting in your published MOD.

Just saw this. You did see the part where the ranges were set before the Mod, correct?

[KG Erwin]

OK, given that hex ranges are divided by 4, the errors you mention, Omegaall, with one exception, are off by 1 or 2 hexes (50-100 yards). That is , IF the quoted info is correct.

I have no problem with adjusting my personal OOBs to reflect this, but in the long run it may make little to no difference in weapons effectiveness for game purposes.

In changing the 75mm IG range, prices increase from 3-5 points. Now, this could affect the AI purchases, but how dramatic the change is, has yet to be seen.

Taki WAS a contributing researcher to prior Japanese OOB updates, so don't blame the Enhanced Mod crew for basically keeping the Jap OOB as it was. I still have his notes from one of the old updates.

Personal note: I always thought that the Japanese AI had WAY too much arty, especially in the early PTO battles, so maybe these changes will do some good.

[omegaall]

Well as far as the OOB project is concerned it got cut off very quickly as the various multi mods came out. But from what I could see the whole project never seemed finished. This would be an example of such.
The delivery of the Enhanced MOD seems to almost stop future correction. NOTE almost I did not say completely.

Also you want reference well a basic reference is the following:
FM E 101-10 ( Staff Officers Field Manual: Enemy Forces Organization, Technical and Logistical Data ), 20 Oct 1942
This some of the data from the above FM reference.

[font="Courier New"]Weapon ___________________________ max ranges (yds) ____ max ranges (m)
75 mm Gun M1906 Type 38 __________ 9000 - 11800 ________ 8230 - 10790
75 mm Mtn Gun M94 (1934) Type 94 __ 7500 - 8750 ________ 6858 - 8001
105 mm Gun M1932 __________________ 12000 - 20000 ______ 10973 - 18288
105 mm Gun M1925 Type 14 __________ 11000 - 14000 ______ 10058 - 12802
105 mm How M91 (1931) Type 91 _____ 11500 ______________ 10516
150 mm Gun M1929 __________________ 27340 ______________ 25000[/font]
These are close to the data on the web reference and if you go double check you will possibly find the web data to be more accurate as its derived after the event

[KG Erwin]

Omegaall, thanks for the references, but you gotta keep in mind that this is a game, NOT a simulation. Inserting absolute values in the OOBs do not always work properly with the code.

Now, when it comes to arty ranges, you gotta keep in mind the maximum width of the displayed battlefield. As for 75mm arty in general, I think they are useless as off-board support. On-board, they have some use. Frankly, I don't like buying 75s for on-board indirect fire, even though the US Marines used them as such until 1944. I prefer mortars. On the other hand, the Germans and Japanese used their 75mm IGs in a direct-fire role many times, sometimes even against enemy armor. That must be taken into account.

[FlashfyreSP]

Excuse me, omegaall, but since when did you get appointed "Lord High SPWAW Decider"????

Who are you to tell ME that I must make changes to the published Mod? You have a lot of nerve, buddy...where is YOUR Mod, then?

You know, you and some others that stop by every now and again and drop your little "snowflakes" about the game and the "problems" in someone else's work are beginning to piss me off. You don't like the Mod, DON'T FRIGGIN USE IT!!

I spent a bloody YEAR or more doing research for the Enhanced Mod; but I didn't touch the Japanese OOB because NOBODY SAID ANYTHING ABOUT IT BEING FULL OF ERRORS FOR ALMOST 2 YEARS!!! It was open for discussion for over a year at the Depot, and very few mistakes were ever pointed out. Those that were got corrected.

Now you come along and make demands about some errors that outside of the counterbattery fire process won't mean a hill of beans to gameplay.

Well, as far as I am concerned you can just Piss off!!

[KG Erwin]

C'mon, guys, let's back up and look at this. Omegaall, why in the world did you wait until NOW to demand changes? Where were you when these issues were being discussed?

You can simply do what I did, and make the adjustments in your OOB set.

Let me remind you of this -- I recommended to the Enhanced team to leave the Japanese alone, as far as weapons values were concerned. These are the guys I most often play AGAINST, and I thought they were damn good. I focused upon the AI selection schemes, which were excellent, so I did not personally reaudit the entire OOB. If you wanna blame someone for an oversight, then blame ME.

In all of this, there are just two units in the Japanese OOB that will have slight price adjustments, so this is a minor issue. In the long run, it's not gonna change the results of anyone's campaigns or battles.

[Goblin]

Well as far as the OOB project is concerned it got cut off very quickly as the various multi mods came out. But from what I could see the whole project never seemed finished.

The project forums were up for 1 year. Flash is correct: there was not much input on the Japanese OOB's. Posting this info then would have been very useful.

The various mods used the info posted in those forums, and most blended into the ENH version. Therefore, the info in those forums effectively became ENH.

[omegaall]

First as I said I noticed some odd ranges when making a scenario.

this was with these 2 guns and it did not make sense.
68 ___ 105mm Type 91 H __ 10800 ____ 208
33 ___ 75mm Type 38 Hw __ 8250 _____ 216
So I did soem checking on them and also teh others.

So Flashy since I am NOT being as you imply "Lord High SPWAW Decider"????

And Since you are apparently official forum person to "tell the guy to Piss Off", I can see any level of discussion here is irrelevent as I have seen from some of your posts.
So since this is so important keep your initial values and since I am not welcome here I will not bother again.

Thank for you kind friendliness, NOT!.

[junk2drive]

Bye

[Orzel Bialy]

WTF is the matter with this place lately? [&:]

As of late I do rather think that the Ghosts of Steel Panthers Past, Present and Future need to come a calling, in all due haste mind you, to spread forth Holiday understanding and goodwill among our apparently somewhat merryless community. [;)]

Folks...sometimes we forget just how much personal free time was surrendered by others among us, just for the love of a game and its community. As in real life that type of dedication is sometimes overlooked or taken for granted by those of us who should know better. Sometimes even without being aware of it we tend to forget to say "thanks" often enough or maybe watch just how we phrase our words when pointing out problematic issues or raising an objection. It's not a call for dreaded Political Correctness...it's just a call for common courtesy and due respect on both sides of the fence.

Anyway...just thought I'd share that Holiday Fuzzy Feeling with everyone and maybe buy some time for the cooling off period to begin. If this doesn't work I'll pass out hand grenades and baseball bats. [:D]

Thank you for listening. This has been a public service message from Orzel "Bob Cratchit" Bialy reminding you all that Santa is watching so you better behave. That means knocking off those late night stints with that bottle of hand lotion Gob. [:'(]

Peace Out.

[Goblin]

ORIGINAL: Orzel Bialy That means knocking off those late night stints with that bottle of hand lotion Gob.[/i] [:'(]

I would reply in depth, but my hands are slippery. I'll deal with you later.[:)]

[KG Erwin]

After all this, I've lately been tempted to "go German" again, crank up "Erika" and pop open a bottle of Beck's.

[chief]

I hate to see people argue over problems that have simple cures.[&:]
 
1st, Matrix has modified the game to ver 8.403. (With input from gammers)[;)]
 
2nd, The Enhanced Mod is from the SPWAW Depot group. (not part of MATRIX, but with input from MATRIX)[:)]
 
It is not MANDATORY that any gammer use the Matrix updates or the Enhanced Update(s) to play the game. Yes, there are some mistakes in BOTH versions and they are not denied by either MATRIX or the DEPOT.[:(]
 
If anyone dosen't like the OOBs, SHPs, or whatever do what some of the gammers have done, write your own, the greatest thing about this game is its installed Editor. (I'm to dense personally to understand it). After you write your own pass them on to anyone who PBEM with you. The writers of both of the latest updates, Matrix and Depot, did so of their own free will, used their time and effort to improve a game that has a loyal following. Arguing amongst each other won't solve anything. Constructive criticism is always welcomed. [&o]
 
Final Word is....If you don't like it, change it, or don't use it......(I know what your going to say "Hush now Chief")[:D]
 
Chief Hushing away now[8D]