TOAW4 wish list and poll

[Legun]

If you are interested in a discussion about possible TOAW modifications, you can check a wish list and to vote in a (possible with Ralph's cooperation) poll:
TOAW4 wish list and poll on the TDG

[BigDuke66]

Is there even a tiny chance that TOAW 4 will ever be build???

TOAW 3 didn't have enough changes for my taste and I bed the sells aren't high enough to even think about making a sequel.
We don't even see any new things appear in the patches so far and I guess we will never see something new in the future.

So why should Matrix even think about making TOAW 4.

I would much more like to see games in the style of the Airbonre Assault series but with a bigger scale, maybe regimant level to fight some really big battles.
No hexes, no turns, no IGOYGO, nothing of that old boardgame stuff in it, thats the furture of wargaming!

[JAMiAM]

David Heath happens to be both happy, and impressed, with the sales of TOAW III, thus far.

[Jeff Norton]

w00t!!!

I'm not that great of a code monkey, but I'd be happy to help out Ralph as much (and, to a level) as he needs.

Bring on TOAW4 - are they accepting pre-pays?[&o]

[Chuck2]

ORIGINAL: JAMiAM

David Heath happens to be both happy, and impressed, with the sales of TOAW III, thus far.

How many copies have been sold?

[Telumar]

ORIGINAL: Chuck2

ORIGINAL: JAMiAM

David Heath happens to be both happy, and impressed, with the sales of TOAW III, thus far.

How many copies have been sold?

Yeah, that would be really interesting.

[rhinobones]

ORIGINAL: JAMiAM
David Heath happens to be both happy, and impressed, with the sales of TOAW III, thus far.

Good to hear that sales have been more than expected . . . especially since Matrix probably gave away a couple hundred free copies to designers, testers, etc. That alone could have easily added another $8000 to the gross sales.

Matrix may not be so generous next time!

Regards, RhinoBones

[m5000.2006]

i don't think there will ever be something like TOAW 4, so i'd forget about it

but, there are likely to be patches and add-ons for TOAW III, or at least this is how i understand the whole TOAW III project...

[hank]

If I could summarize my wish in one item it would be:

Revamp completely ... the user interface. 

I'm on lunch at work so I can't provide details which would just dilute what I'm trying to describe (anyway).

There's so much data in this game, its extremely difficult to understand what it all means and how is it affecting your play results.  Numbers for proficiency, supply, experience, etc. etc.  ... this information is given in numbers but what are the numbers related to?  Some are percentages which are easy to comprehend but some are not; for example:

I think proficiency can have a range of 33% minimum to 100% ... so this isn't actually a percentage ... 33% = 0% / 100% = 100% ... kinda confusing

Fix indicators that lie. 

Such as the circle of stars showing your usage of a turn for the current combat round.  These simply don't tell the truth because of proficiency checks and other factors that you may or may not know is going to skew the results of the round (resulting in early turn termination ... when you had planned on some clean up activities for the next round - before the turn ends but you're screwed because the turn ended abruptly)

... and the progress bar in the upper part of the "attack planning dialog".  This one lies also for the same reasons above.  I quit using the attack planning window because I got sick of my turn ending prematurely when I thought I had at least another round coming based on this status bar and the circle of stars.

... I've played many games now but I still don't have a good feel for what units on the map are within supply (without checking every unit) ... why can't I hit a button or hot key and have all the hexes hightlight that are in supply for that turn ??? 

... and lastly ... the rant is soon over ... the button layout and text styles are very aggravating.  Center justified text is not good except in titles ... but to display important data, its not good. Plus you could enlarge and improve, more descriptive unit silhouettes that appear in the unit composition window and equipment characteristics window (... the little bitty gold colored images of tanks, guns, etc. - these could be a little larger and of a different color to make them more legible) ... this is just me cause I'm visual oriented and like graphics that help with the very important issue of "immersion".

I had this game when if first came out many years ago.  I bought it again this time around because its such a popular strategy game.  I'm disappointed but I won't give up on it that easy. 

Most of the replies I get from my rants like above are along the lines of "you just need to play a few hundred more games and this will all start to make sense"  ... nada ... that's not a good thing for a wargame that's suppose to be fun.

end of rant
(ps ... not the first time I ranted like this so please forgive me again)

[Chuck2]

ORIGINAL: hank

I think proficiency can have a range of 33% minimum to 100% ... so this isn't actually a percentage ... 33% = 0% / 100% = 100% ... kinda confusing

You mean readiness, I think. Proficiency can be anywhere from 1% to 100%.

Such as the circle of stars showing your usage of a turn for the current combat round.  These simply don't tell the truth because of proficiency checks and other factors that you may or may not know is going to skew the results of the round (resulting in early turn termination ... when you had planned on some clean up activities for the next round - before the turn ends but you're screwed because the turn ended abruptly)

The stars were never meant to be an exact display of how many rounds you have left. Yes, there are force proficiency checks and combats that last more than one round. These can throw a monkey wrench into even the best well-constructed operational plan.

The stars are supposed to be a guideline for players.

... I've played many games now but I still don't have a good feel for what units on the map are within supply (without checking every unit) ... why can't I hit a button or hot key and have all the hexes hightlight that are in supply for that turn ???

There is such an option. You can either choose to have the supply sources visible or the actual supply per hex visible.

... and lastly ... the rant is soon over ... the button layout and text styles are very aggravating.  Center justified text is not good except in titles ... but to display important data, its not good. Plus you could enlarge and improve, more descriptive unit silhouettes that appear in the unit composition window and equipment characteristics window (... the little bitty gold colored images of tanks, guns, etc. - these could be a little larger and of a different color to make them more legible) ... this is just me cause I'm visual oriented and like graphics that help with the very important issue of "immersion".

Well, the graphics are a decade old now. They could use an upgrade.

[golden delicious]

ORIGINAL: hank

I think proficiency can have a range of 33% minimum to 100% ... so this isn't actually a percentage ... 33% = 0% / 100% = 100% ... kinda confusing

No, that's not true. Proficiency can be as low as 1%. 33% is just the default.

Readiness cannot normally be lower than 33%, but 33% is not the same as 1% because of the way it is used in the game's calculations and because of the way it interacts with the supply %.

Such as the circle of stars showing your usage of a turn for the current combat round.  These simply don't tell the truth because of proficiency checks and other factors that you may or may not know is going to skew the results of the round (resulting in early turn termination ... when you had planned on some clean up activities for the next round - before the turn ends but you're screwed because the turn ended abruptly)

These other factors are unknowable until you press the button. The circle of stars shows you all the information which is and should be available. It's not supposed to be a crystal ball.

... and the progress bar in the upper part of the "attack planning dialog".  This one lies also for the same reasons above.

It doesn't lie- it's just offering you different information from what you think. It can't tell you how many rounds the battle will last- because it depends on random factors which have not yet been determined.

... I've played many games now but I still don't have a good feel for what units on the map are within supply (without checking every unit) ... why can't I hit a button or hot key and have all the hexes hightlight that are in supply for that turn ??? 

You can. Just change the supply view to show the trace. Any unit in a numbered hex at the start of the turn will be in supply.

There is scope to improve the interface. I've just picked out the above examples as places where it's currently fine.

[ralphtricky]

ORIGINAL: m5000.2006
i don't think there will ever be something like TOAW 4, so i'd forget about it

but, there are likely to be patches and add-ons for TOAW III, or at least this is how i understand the whole TOAW III project...

Possibly a bit of both. There's a lot of room for revamping the current version. I got sidetracked by personal and physical issues for a while, but I'm still working on the next patch.

Anything major like a total rewrite of the UI would probably require a new version for support reasons if nothing else, but there is a lot that I can do within the current framework without requiring a new release.

It's also fun, so as long as anyone is willing to play it, I plan to continue building on.

Ralph

[ralphtricky]

ORIGINAL: Chuck2

ORIGINAL: hank

Such as the circle of stars showing your usage of a turn for the current combat round.  These simply don't tell the truth because of proficiency checks and other factors that you may or may not know is going to skew the results of the round (resulting in early turn termination ... when you had planned on some clean up activities for the next round - before the turn ends but you're screwed because the turn ended abruptly)

The stars were never meant to be an exact display of how many rounds you have left. Yes, there are force proficiency checks and combats that last more than one round. These can throw a monkey wrench into even the best well-constructed operational plan.

The stars are supposed to be a guideline for players.

If you mouse over the stars, the numeric representation should appear on the bottom bar.

Ralph

[m5000.2006]

ORIGINAL: hank

... I've played many games now but I still don't have a good feel for what units on the map are within supply (without checking every unit) ... why can't I hit a button or hot key and have all the hexes hightlight that are in supply for that turn ???

yeah, this is a good one, there are sometimes small details like this which could somwhow be improved, also my list from the other thread:

1. while looking at the panel showing expected reinforcements/withdrawals, it would be nice to click on a unit and be moved to this unit on the map - it would really improve planning what to do with units that are to pull out

2. new, improved map showing the whole battle/campaign area, why not something similar like in Pz Campaigns series, the old map that is in the bottom-right corner is terrible, especially with big scenarios such as FitE, the point is to be able to easily jump from place to place

3. panels/windows that can actually be dragged, surely this is not a DOS game...

4. how about chain of command, attaching units to formations, creating new formations from scratch...

and some new stuff

5. why not work on the 3D aspect of the game a bit and improve it, in the present state, it's virtually unplayable

6. i'd work on small units a bit (ant units) and make them more vulnerable somehow (aa units, hqs, etc) so that they aren't used indiscriminately to seal pockets or attack surrounded units to lower their supply or readiness

7. improve anti-cheating features a bit so that innocent saves don't count as illicit reloads



8. also - turn burning - i know that it's a characteristic of TOAW, and without it, the game would no longer be TOAW, but really, e.g. in FitE - it's kind of silly that i can't conduct full attacks e.g. in Ukraine only because some Finnish unit wasn't lucky during the attack, why on earth should an attack in Finland affect attacks in Ukraine?! IMHO, there's a lot to improve in turn resolution...

9. introduce 3rd side or 3rd player (whaterver you call it) - without it all scenarios in which you have e.g. Germans , Western Allies and Russia, don't make much sense - the lack of 3rd side results in all kinds of silly situations - e.g. Russian Aircraft supporting British attacks in west Germany or vice versa, during the Fall Weiss campaign, Germans where probably happy that the Russians helped them, but not in TOAW, here, the German player should rather fear the Russian Ally becuase of its low proficiency units, which will lower the overall proficiency of the Axis/Russia side, and (correct me if i'm wrong as i'm not really sure here) this may lead to fewer attacks per round and faster turn burning, also Russian aircraft will automatically support German attacks, which wasn't really the case, also, 3rd side would actually improve turn burning problem in large scenarios like FitE, in which you have German units and suddenly after a few turns you get Finns, Hungarians, Italians and Rumanians who usually have lower proficiencies - not being able to capture Smolensk just because Rumanians had problems near Odessa is a bit strange for a serious wargame...

10. as for the map and buttons showing all kinds of interesting information, i think that the Pz Campaigns Series is a good example to look at... - also i was wondering how often TOAW players actualy use the weather button [:)]...

11. being able to set supply level for units, so that you can give more supply to certain units that have been more active or that you plan to attack with, and less to units that you plan to use less actively during the turn

[Procrustes]

I've been playing this game for years - I think Matrix did a great job w/ TOAW3.  Here are a couple suggestions that pop to mind first - hope they seem resonable.


-> I'd like a variable zoom on the map.  The far-away view is generally too far-away and the normal display is often a little too tight to get the picture you want of the moves you are planning.  (My work-around is to change the screen resolution on my monitor as I'm playing.)

-> A toggle for the victory hexes would be nice.  They are too big most of the time - really mess up the map, especially in those scenarios with masses of them.  (My solution was to delete the flags.bmp file - no more flags on the v-hexes, but they still have the points.)

-> The map could use a bit more of a facelift.  I have a hard time telling roads from railroads, stuff like that.  And some new terrain types would be nice, too.

-> I wish you could move and resize the windows (like the formation report, etc.), and sticky them places.

Best,

[*Lava*]

Hi!

Personally, I'd like to see folks move on and create a strategy game using the engine. Historic battles (ala TOAW III.. improved) could be a major feature of that game.

Ray (alias Lava)

[hank]

I suppose I should have preempted my comments with ... I am at work and going from memory ... WITH MORE CLARITY
(I knew I'd get flamed ... so here we go ... )

Quote:
"The stars were never meant to be an exact display of how many rounds you have left. Yes, there are force proficiency checks and combats that last more than one round. These can throw a monkey wrench into even the best well-constructed operational plan.

The stars are supposed to be a guideline for players. "

... OK, why not???  Why can't something that's suppose to indicate a result be accurate?  Isn't a guideline suppose to be accurate within its scope of intent?  The only monkey wrench I should see as a player is that I attack with overwhelming force and the defenders get a good random number generated (if that's how its done in toaw) ... and they hold out and defend the hex against my overpowering attack.  ... that happens in real life ... tough as it is to swallow.
But to terminate a turn even though the game says it won't is bad juju.

For beginners the stars and bars is totally misleading ... (I suppose the statement:  you need to play a few more hundred games to understand this"  is true.)

Quote:
"These other factors are unknowable until you press the button. The circle of stars shows you all the information which is and should be available. It's not supposed to be a crystal ball."

... Then call it a "not-to-be-trusted" prediction ... with a disclaimer: "results may vary depending on climate and how you hold your tongue when you hit the "resolve button"".

... anyway, there's so much unknown behind the scenes in this game, why try to fool the new players into thinking a piece of info displayed in the game is accurate ... I've never seen in the manual that the "circle of stars" and "attack planning bars" are "not to be trusted ... they're useless if you need to plan ahead"

I'm know these games are suppose to have randomness built in to the attack resolution for each individual incident in a turn.  That's the way all these hex base strategy games are ... with the over riding calculations of Attack vs Defense plus correction factors for moral, supply, terrain, experience, etc etc etc. 
Building an attack based on these factors should be adequate for establishing an attack ... then roll the die.  Building in randomness to success or failure in an event is the only way to address unpredictibility which is what I suppose was the idea behind the readiness or proficiency checks but the result of these checks is overly severe ... turn ends prematurely and you have units not prepared for battle in the next turn.  (then, your opponent commences to ream you out during his turn - bend over ... its time for the finger wave)
(what if I like waiting for my last round to reset Air Assets a certain way?  What if I like going through all my units on the last round ... or even second round and set loss limits, digging in, etc. ... nada - won't happen if the checks terminate my turn after round ONE ... Some things you do in a turn are best done in the last round, not the first one)

Quote:
"It doesn't lie- it's just offering you different information from what you think. It can't tell you how many rounds the battle will last- because it depends on random factors which have not yet been determined."

... OK, example: I've built what i think is a successfull attack.  During resolution of the round I expect random results of the attacks I've planned. That's the unpredictability of war.  But to have something say you'll have more rounds coming in the turn, then suddenly there's not, is just not right ... any way you want to package it, its not right. 
The results of the "not yet been determined" factors is too severe. There must be other ways to penalize a player than to suddenly screw up his planning for that turn ... it can lead to catastrophic results if you play against one of those people who've played their thousand or two games of toaw.

I'll go back and read up on supply again.  I'm sure I've been so frustrated with the other issues I've had with ToaW that I've probably missed something here.  But I know I've tried to follow the resupply rules and my units in many cases don't resupply even when I sit them on those little half moon circles for 4 or 5 turns in a row.  ... supply is definitely one of my least researched part of gameplay in toaw.

rant #2 over

except ... I've played several of the most popular games if this genre.  I've never had this much trouble getting the hang of the game mechanics.  I can't even think about strategies yet.  I'm too worried about round resolutions ... how to stay in supply ... and will I stub my toe once again on some obscure issue working behind the resolution phase ... for which I'm oblivious to since I don't even know it exists 

[Silvanski]

ORIGINAL: Procrustes -> The map could use a bit more of a facelift.  I have a hard time telling roads from railroads, stuff like that.  And some new terrain types would be nice, too.

There are counter and terrain mods -including more visible rail lines- available.

Look in this thread...Graphic mods

[Procrustes]

ORIGINAL: Silvanski

ORIGINAL: Procrustes -> The map could use a bit more of a facelift. I have a hard time telling roads from railroads, stuff like that. And some new terrain types would be nice, too.

There are counter and terrain mods -including more visible rail lines- available.

Look in this thread...Graphic mods

Thanks for the link - I'll poke through tonight. I'm aware of some of them & have replaced the odd bitmap here and there - was especially happy to find different "steel" and "brass" bitmaps.

[Chuck2]

ORIGINAL: hank

I suppose I should have preempted my comments with ... I am at work and going from memory ... WITH MORE CLARITY
(I knew I'd get flamed ... so here we go ... )

Quote:
"The stars were never meant to be an exact display of how many rounds you have left. Yes, there are force proficiency checks and combats that last more than one round. These can throw a monkey wrench into even the best well-constructed operational plan.

The stars are supposed to be a guideline for players. "

... OK, why not???  Why can't something that's suppose to indicate a result be accurate?

It isn't supposed to indicate a result. Just that you've potentially X number of combat rounds left. Also, it is accurate assuming there isn't a failed force proficiency check or rounds wasted by attacking with units that have moved too much when compared to the number of combat rounds left.

Isn't a guideline suppose to be accurate within its scope of intent?  The only monkey wrench I should see as a player is that I attack with overwhelming force and the defenders get a good random number generated (if that's how its done in toaw) ... and they hold out and defend the hex against my overpowering attack.  ... that happens in real life ... tough as it is to swallow.
But to terminate a turn even though the game says it won't is bad juju.

For beginners the stars and bars is totally misleading ... (I suppose the statement:  you need to play a few more hundred games to understand this"  is true.)

Many beginners have requested such a feature in the past. I don't think it would have been added except for new players. If it isn't helping, perhaps it should be removed from the game in the next update.