Mother Russia

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: SemperAugustus

EDIT:
This might seem terribly ignorant, but what is the modern name for Konstantinovsk? I can't find anything on this place... There is one in Rostov Oblast on the Don river, but that is on the other side of Russia.

There are several ports in the area most of the founded in the 1940s, Vanino (1944) and Sovetskaya Gavan (1941) seem to be the major ones... There is a town called Konstantinovsk founded in 1853, but anyone know the current name? It was still called Konstantinovsk in the end of 1910s- beginning of 1920s.

I think that Konstantinovsk is either Vanino or Sovetskaya Gavan, or both.
Looking in Google Earth, I see that both cities are 12 km distant, so maybe that Konstantinovsk represent both.
I bought a Coller Atlas of 1944, and another of 1935, and I'll look into them to see if I find them, when I'll have received them.

[SemperAugustus]

This is the info I can find (my Russian is pretty bad):
The Russian Mojgorod (my town) site (http://www.mojgorod.ru/habarov_kraj/sov ... index.html) says Sovetskaya Gavan was founded in 1941.

This page (http://www.heraldik.ru/flags/sovetskaiagavan_f.htm) states the following
Founded as Impertorskaya Gavan renamed Sovetskaya Gavan in 1922, city rights in 1941.

University of Utrecht site on urban centers says http://www.library.uu.nl/wesp/populstat ... ussiat.htm Konstatinovsk and Sovetskaya Gavan are the same place, which is clearly wrong

Going to Vanino, the Vanino Port page history section (www.vcsp.ru/about/history/) states it was founded in 1853, it doesn't look like it was renamed...

My conclusion is that it must be some other renamed town...

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: SemperAugustus
My conclusion is that it must be some other renamed town...

It can't. there is nothing else in this area, at least by looking at it with Google Earth.
I'll see if this port is drawn on the 1935 & 1944 atlases I bought (but not received) recenlty.

[Peter Stauffenberg]

ORIGINAL: SemperAugustus

This is the info I can find (my Russian is pretty bad):
The Russian Mojgorod (my town) site (http://www.mojgorod.ru/habarov_kraj/sov ... index.html) says Sovetskaya Gavan was founded in 1941.

This page (http://www.heraldik.ru/flags/sovetskaiagavan_f.htm) states the following
Founded as Impertorskaya Gavan renamed Sovetskaya Gavan in 1922, city rights in 1941.

University of Utrecht site on urban centers says http://www.library.uu.nl/wesp/populstat ... ussiat.htm Konstatinovsk and Sovetskaya Gavan are the same place, which is clearly wrong

Going to Vanino, the Vanino Port page history section (www.vcsp.ru/about/history/) states it was founded in 1853, it doesn't look like it was renamed...

My conclusion is that it must be some other renamed town...

I found this text about Konstantinovsk:
http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/r?ammem/ncps:@field(DOCID+@lit(ABQ7578-0167-39))::

It says further down in the text that Konstantinovsk was founded in 1853. That is the SAME year as when Vanino
was founded. So I believe they are the same. Froonp said it well. There is nothing else in the area that could have
been Konstantinovsk. Vanino is not a typical Tsar era name so I guess it wasn't called Vanino 100 years ago. I don't
know when the name changed from Konstantinovsk to Vanino. I guess it may have happened before 1939 because
the Communists weren't fond of names that would be linked to tsars.

[ahlner]

I have followed the discussion about Konstantinovsk and done some searches on the internet. It is very hard to get any information about the port of Konstantinovsk but it seems to have been founded in 1853 like both Sovetskaya Gavan (Imperatorskaya Gavan before 1922) and Vanino. On the russian homepage (http://www.heraldik.ru/flags/sovetskaiagavan_f.htm, translated with Babelfish) you can read that Sovetskaya Gavan was named after a prince Constantine and therefore began to be called Imperatorskaya Gavan (Emperor's Harbour).

On another russian homepage (http://www.vcsp.ru/about/history/index.html, translated with Babelfish) about Vanino you can read that Vanino was founded in 1853 and was named in honor of a Russian topographer Vanina.

After these searches I am almost sure that Konstantinovsk never was an official name but only a "provisional" name for Imperatorskaya Gavan (perhaps because there was already a Konstantinovsk in the Rostov region). I think that Kontantinovsk and Sovetskaya Gavan are the same places just like the University of Utrecht site on urban centers says.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: ahlner

I have followed the discussion about Konstantinovsk and done some searches on the internet. It is very hard to get any information about the port of Konstantinovsk but it seems to have been founded in 1853 like both Sovetskaya Gavan (Imperatorskaya Gavan before 1922) and Vanino. On the russian homepage (http://www.heraldik.ru/flags/sovetskaiagavan_f.htm, translated with Babelfish) you can read that Sovetskaya Gavan was named after a prince Constantine and therefore began to be called Imperatorskaya Gavan (Emperor's Harbour).

On another russian homepage (http://www.vcsp.ru/about/history/index.html, translated with Babelfish) about Vanino you can read that Vanino was founded in 1853 and was named in honor of a Russian topographer Vanina.

After these searches I am almost sure that Konstantinovsk never was an official name but only a "provisional" name for Imperatorskaya Gavan (perhaps because there was already a Konstantinovsk in the Rostov region). I think that Kontantinovsk and Sovetskaya Gavan are the same places just like the University of Utrecht site on urban centers says.

I received the 1944 Collier Atlas that I bought last week, and I'm very happy [:D] [:D] !
It already allowed me to place new names on the maps, particulary the names of the cities where the RP in Russian Middle Asia are situated. Stalinabad, Kikand, Biisk. Great.

On this atlas, there is Sovietskaya Gavan at the very place where the WiF FE maps have Konstantinovsk.
So, I propose to rename this place : Sovietskaya Gavan.
Opinions ?

(I should receive soon a 1935 Collier Atlas too [:D])

[Peter Stauffenberg]

ORIGINAL: Froonp
I received the 1944 Collier Atlas that I bought last week, and I'm very happy [:D] [:D] !
It already allowed me to place new names on the maps, particulary the names of the cities where the RP in Russian Middle Asia are situated. Stalinabad, Kikand, Biisk. Great.

On this atlas, there is Sovietskaya Gavan at the very place where the WiF FE maps have Konstantinovsk.
So, I propose to rename this place : Sovietskaya Gavan.
Opinions ?

(I should receive soon a 1935 Collier Atlas too [:D])

I agree and think you can change Konstantinovsk to Sovietskaya Gavan.

PS: I really envy you that map. [:D]

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: Borger Borgersen
PS: I really envy you that map. [:D]

It is quite easy to get.
I bought it from eBay (about 10-15 USD plus shipping to France), and there were half a dozen from the 1935-1946 period.
There are still a lot.

[Froonp]

What are the other's opinion on the addition of Ulan-Ude ?
It would lie in hex 48,135, that is 3 hexes from Irkutsk across the Lake Baikal (6 rail hexes from it), and 8 hexes from Chita.

The Irkutsk-Chita distance on the WiF FE map is 5 pacific scaled hexes, which means that a Russian unit walking from one to the next in fine weather would always be in supply.

The Irkutsk-Chita distance on the MWiF map is 12 hexes (not following the convolutions of the railway), which means that a Russian unit walking from one to the next in fine weather would not always be in supply. There is a 5 mountain hexes gap of "no supply between both".

I for one think that it should be added, to restore the supply status that the orginal maps offered between Irkutsk & Chita.

Opinions ?

ORIGINAL: SemperAugustus

At least Ulan-Ude should be added I think...

The major cities (using 1939 population data) during this period in the Soviet Far East would be (following the Chinese border i.e. Primorsky, Khabarovsk, Amur, Chita, Buriatia, Irkutsk):
Vladivostok (100k+)
Voroshilov (70k+) (i.e. the town currently called Ussurisk/Ussuriysk), north of Vladivostok
Khabarovsk (100k+)
Komsomolsk-na-Amure (70k+)
Chita (100k+)
Ulan-Ude (100k+)
Irkutsk (100k+)

Other "major" towns
Blagoveshchensk (on the Amur) was about 60k
Cheremkhovo NW of Irkutsk (about 66k)

Minor Towns (in other areas of far east)
Yakutsk (53k)
Petropavlovsk-Kamchatsky (35k)

[Shannon V. OKeets]

Yes, add Ulan-Ude.

[trees]

anyone know what 'kaya' might mean in Russian? curious.

[Mziln]

ORIGINAL: trees

anyone know what 'kaya' might mean in Russian? curious.

[:D] Sovietkaya translates to a crillic word that won't print correctly here which translates back to English as Soviet. [:D]

Prompt Online Translator

[trees]

I know what it means in Bob Marley speak, which is somewhat universal around the world, and made sense even in Japan one time. So I was suprised to see it part of the Russian language too. So ... Soviet - what?

[SemperAugustus]

Please note the source (David Irving) of this before taking this at face value, but it indicates that Sovjetskaya Gavan was considered as back up to Vladivostok in the case of a Japanese attack.
http://www.fpp.co.uk/History/Churchill/ ... talin.html

Irving apparently does do some research well (in digging up documents), but I wouldn't take everything to be true that he writes.

[Mziln]

Sovetskaya Gavan is a port on the Pacific coast linked to Komsomolsk-na-Amure, 500 km west, by an extension of the BAM. Nowadays it has about 40,000 inhabitants. The city was originally known as Imperatorskaya Gavan (Emperor's Harbor), and in 1926 became Sovetskaya Gavan (Harbor of the Soviets).

Sovetskaya Gavan city info

Please note both cities have the kaya sufix but one is Emperor's Harbor so the other may be able to be translated as Soviet's Harbor or Harbor of the Emperor and Harbor of the Soviets. I would assume it means "of the" in some cases.

[SemperAugustus]

Note though that the BAM line was still under contruction, so there wouldn't be a railroad to Sovietskaya Gavan at this time I think.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: SemperAugustus

Note though that the BAM line was still under contruction, so there wouldn't be a railroad to Sovietskaya Gavan at this time I think.

No there should not be. The BAM contruction was halted.
Here is an answer I got from a Russian guy that maintains a website about the BAM :

******************************************************
I am glad for your interest for our subject.
The history of BAM- in short- is sush.
Indeed,the beginning of BAM construction attributs to 1930. It was very difficult to construct without any mechanism. It was the result of slow work. In the second part of 1930 the government sent many political prisoners to construct Transsib- Just Skovorodino, there was one of the parts of Gulag. "A little BAM" was opened in 1940, the rail-tracks connected Tinda and Skovorodino.
But the beginning of the Second World War stopped the building because all the people-builders were sent to the front. In 1942 the ready construction (part Skovorodino-Tinda) was quickly stripped (or dismantled) and the rail-tracks were sent to Stalingrad, where before the well-known Stalingrad Battle the rocad railway lines (parallel to the main front) has been constructed. It was very important to supply technics and food products for Soviet troops!
From 1943(!) started (with great secrecy) the construction of the east extension of BAM the line Komsomolsk-Soviet Gavan on the Far East/ but after the end of the Second World War we had one more serious enemy in the East-Japan.
Under bad conditions, without roads, the building of the railway in the East started.
In 1945(!) this line was put into operation (on the eve of the Victory). War technics, fuel resourcts,food were transfered to Soviet Gavan.
In August 1945 the USSR began active actions against the ally of Germany- Japan/
Thancs to the fact that railway was ready soviet troops crushed Japan in 2 weeks.
In 1951 the line Izvestkovaja-Urgal was constructed. In 1954 the rails reached Ust-Kut (on Lena river).
Since 1970 began the main buildng of BAM joining all of these points Ust-Kut - Tinda - Urgal - Komsomolsk.
Just is the history in short, my dear!

With best regards.
Wsevolod.
******************************************************

[Peter Stauffenberg]

ORIGINAL: trees

anyone know what 'kaya' might mean in Russian? curious.

Kaya is the adjective suffiks for female nouns in nominative.

Gavan' is a female noun and it means harbor. Sovetskaya
Gavan' means Soviet harbor. Notice that the symbol ' of the
name indicates that the noun ends with the soft sign symbol
of the Russian alphabet (myakiy zhak).

Take for example the adjective for Russian. They are written
like this in nominative:
* Russkiy (male noun) ending: iy
* Russkaya (female noun) ending: aya
* Russkoye (neuter noun) ending: oye
* Russkiye (plural) ending: iye

In accusative you will see that female adjectives change to the ending uyu).
For example: Russkuyu. Male and neuter adjectives remain the same with
the exception for male noun of living persons or animals. Then the ending
for the adjective will be ogo as in genitive. For example Russkogo
(pronounced russkava).

It's quite easy to know whether Russian nouns are male, female or
neuter. If the noun ends with a consonant in nominative then it's a male
noun. If it ends with a or ya then it's a female noun (with the exception
of the ending mya which is neuter). If it ends with e or o then it's neuter.
The only difficulty is with the nouns ending with the soft sign ('). 75% of
these are female nouns and 25% of them are male nouns. Gavan' is a
female noun. Therefore we write Sovetskaya and not Sovetskiy.

I hope this lesson of Russian grammar didn't scare you too much. [;)]

It's not too difficult. At least there is some system to the grammar rules.
Norwegian language is more chaotic with more exceptions and less
rules. I think that's more difficult even though I'm a native Norwegian. [:D]

[Incy]

Maybe you can ask him when Khabarovsk-Komsomolsk was built?
It seems odd to me that Komsomolsk-Soviet Gavan could be built in '43-'45 without the completion of Khabarovsk-Komsomolsk first..

[trees]

well thanks for the Russian lesson, though I was hoping it was something more exciting than the nominative gender indicator.