Close to pulling trigger..need final push.

[slybelle]

Hi guys,

I've been following this one for awhile and am close to possibly purchasing before the 25% discount ends. Hoping you can answer a few questions which will put me over the top.

1) Is there somewhere that lists all the improvements that have been made during each patch? I've read the reviews and just curious what has been fixed from the start.

2) If you are playing the campaign, is there a hard end date? Or will the war end only after some kind of conditions are met?

3) I know this is a simulation of the pacific war, but how does the overall war get modeled in this game? Does any of the other war areas (i.e. europe, africa, etc. come into play in some kind of way?

4) I know this is a monster wargame, so I'm a little concerned if it is too overwhelming. I'm sure each person has a different take on this. I don't mind all the details as long as it doesn't come across over tedious. Any thoughts?

5) Is there any official add-ons planned or next-gen version coming out anytime soon?

Thanks for your help.

[DuckofTindalos]

Erm, WitP isn't on the discount list...

[slybelle]

whoops..must have misread that.  Still interested in thoughts, although $70 is kind of steep.

[Roger Neilson II]

As has been pointed out in the forums many times, the actual cost of a piece of software is reflected most accurately in its time of use. I have bought numerous 'games' that have lasted a few hours before I have given up on them (maybe I'm a bit profligate). A recent purchase was Crown of Glory - probably I gave up on it after about 20 hours of sheer frustration - so its cost to me was $30 - a cost of $1.50 per hour of play...... probably cheaper than a night out and no hangover!

WITP at $70 seems expensive but I have put in at least 2 hours per day on this for over 2 years = $0.1 per hour play (an approximation) and no hangover again! Read some AARs, see just how engrossing this can be. There isn't a game like it anywhere.

As a side note I do find it interesting that digital download in the states is $29.99 for COG and $69.99 for WITP. Digital download over here is £15.99 for COG and £36.99 for WITP so at about 2$ = £1 that's about right. Over here most games are sold new in the £30 bracket so WITP isn't expensive here relatively.

I just recalled shelling out £11.99 for Alexander the Great - this seemed a bargain - and lasted about 6 hours before I gave it up as awful.

I repeat, the actual shelf cost is not the issue - long time playability has to be seen as the factor to judge upon.

Roger

[Widell]

ORIGINAL: Roger Neilson II

WITP at $70 seems expensive but I have put in at least 2 hours per day on this for over 2 years = $0.1 per hour play (an approximation) and no hangover again! Read some AARs, see just how engrossing this can be. There isn't a game like it anywhere.

I second that! Just be prepared to not play many other games again, specially once you get into PBEM. It will consume you! Have a look at what the real addicts have to say about it: WITP Warning!

As for "issues", I´d say you get more than your $70 back before any of the issues discussed here on the forums becomes tough to live with. Even the most long term players keep playing even with the known issues, as they are minor in comparison to the magnitude and qualities of the rest of the game [&o]

[mc3744]

Push ... push ... push ...



Just do it!!!! [:D][:D][:D]

[slybelle]

Thanks guys, I'll take a look at some of the AAR's. Also, I do understand about the cost and if it ends up being a great game it would pay for itself. I have no issue with paying for a game like that. Just sometimes tough to drop the money without having a demo or some kind of hands on way of previewing it.

Thanks again.

[mc3744]

ORIGINAL: slybelle

Thanks guys, I'll take a look at some of the AAR's. Also, I do understand about the cost and if it ends up being a great game it would pay for itself. I have no issue with paying for a game like that. Just sometimes tough to drop the money without having a demo or some kind of hands on way of previewing it.

Thanks again.

I'm willing to bet 70 bucks that you won't regret buying it.
Of course that would double the cost of the game [:D]

[Widell]

ORIGINAL: slybelle
Thanks guys, I'll take a look at some of the AAR's. Also, I do understand about the cost and if it ends up being a great game it would pay for itself. I have no issue with paying for a game like that. Just sometimes tough to drop the money without having a demo or some kind of hands on way of previewing it.

That's understandable. You always need to watch your cash flow [;)]. To the point of a demo, I´d say there's no way a demo would sell WITP. It is way to complex. I first played the tutorials that comes with the game and thought "Wow, there goes $70 down the drains". I then started reading a few of the AAR's on the forum, and it was then I realized that these tutorials really won't tell you anything beyond some basic mechanism to "do stuff" in the game

Imagine the guys that PBEM'd the whole campaign! Thats like 365*4 turns plus a few more. At least 1500 turns. Even at an average of 2 turns per day (which I think really few PBEM's can keep up with over the Grand Campaign), that's more than 2 real life years! For one (1) single game. If that game is not a great one, these guys are even crazier than they appear on these boards [&o]. I think even if you played against the AI, you need at least a year to complete the grand campaign

So, to make a demo, or try our version of that would not be fair to the game, nor the designers of the game. I´d suggest looking extensively at the AAR's. I am convinced someone can recommend a few good ones. Start your reading experience at Pearl Harbor, and follow the story as it evolves. Some of them are simply so exiting you can't wait til' the next post

[slybelle]

Thanks guys...getting me closer:)
 
Just curious if anybody has the anwers to questions #2 and #3 from original post.  Very interested on how the game is modeled in these areas.
 
Thanks.

[RAM]

#1: I don't know if there is anything like this other than in the patches readme files, where all cumulative improvements are explained...there are LOTS of new and improved things since WITP was released, so I would suggest you read the manual first, play a couple of small scenarios, then read the readme, and then try a big campaign against the AI to get the feel of the war.
Then do the jump and fight another human of your same level of experience. You will commit mistakes but so did real life commanders. They learned from their own mistakes, just as you will .


#2: Both, actually. Game can end if the japanese can achieve enough points over the allies before 1943. I think it's a 4/1 score to achieve autovictory. Then after 1944 the same happens to the allies, if they achieve enough points over the japanese, game ends. If the game reaches 1946 without either side achieving an autovictory, game automatically ends with whatever result is achieved at that moment.
I don't know the odds needed for each side and each time frame, neither I remember the exact date of the final date. others can specify them for me.


#3: WITP is somewhat influenced by events in other theaters of war, but in a very indirect way. All the ship arriving times happen as they did historically because those ships were present in other places (for instance, USS Wasp was in the atlantic and mediterranean until mid-1942).
Then there is the monthly dice roll to see if you must retire british ships from the Far Eastern Fleet, which simulates needs from other theaters of operations. You can choose to keep the ships the high command has asked from you, paying a quite large penalty on political points, or you can send them some or all of them as requested.

Other than that, there is no influence from other war zones on this game.


#4: This happens against the AI too, but when you are fighting an human, you simply don't have time to get bored. You are constantly planning for future operations, strenghtening weak zones, moving resources from one base to another... the area WITP covers is so overwhelming that always there's something happening somewhere. Certain fronts can get boring because of little or no action for a long while, but as in other ones something will be happening, you won't feel any boredom at all.

#5: there is some rumours about a WITP2. But if it is going to happen, it's still very far in the future.


About the game itself, and on the topic "should I buy it?"...I've been playing entertainment software since I had an Amstrad CPC, 22 years ago. I have never, and I repeat it , NEVER, seen a game like WITP, displaying so many variables in a theater of operations as immense as this one, and with a campaign as long as this one. And when you finish a game, there is no problem in starting another one...because things are so different from one game to another...

People keep insisting that replayability in this game is awesome. Well, I disagree. Replayability is nonexisting...you don't re-play WITP. You fight a whole different war each game you play .

Its simply awesome. Worth every cent you invest on the game. Highly reccommended.

[Roger Neilson II]

In answer to your 2nd question I have copied the section from the manual which gives the overall answer... attached.

In answer to your third question, the arrival dates of various parts of the allied armoury seem pretty close to actual historical arrivals - though there are always items which people will argue about - so your reinforcements will appear on either a historical timeline or you can set the variability to much more 'variable' as to their arrival. The only main removal of anything is in regard to some Royal Naval forces which have to be withdrawn at times to reflect other events elsewhere in the world - or you pay a heavy penalty in political points.

You can also choose to bring Russia in early by attacking them as the Japanese......

As regards AARs there are some that are very much just copies of the combat results, some that discuss the thinking around moves and operations being executed, some that are almost off the wall in terms of their informative nature about the game - though hugely fun to read!

Roger

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: slybelle
2) If you are playing the campaign, is there a hard end date?

Yes. I forget exactly, but it's sometime in 1946. Not really relevant in reality.

Or will the war end only after some kind of conditions are met?

Sort of. There is a point score. If a player achieves a 4-1 ratio by at the end of 1942, 3-1 at the end of 1943, or 2-1 at the end of 1944 they have achieved 'Auto Victory'. The game presents the player with an option to continue. The intent is to represent political pressure.

Bear in mind that most of the various player create modified full campaign scenarios (which are vastly superior to the stock scenario) are NOT calibrated in terms of victory points assigned to bases, etc. Auto victory is meaningless then. Most players seem to disregard auto victory even in the stock scenarios, going instead with their own sensibilities of who won and why. This makes more sense as plain points cannot adequately represent the myriad of strategic situations that call for an assessment of 'who won?'.

3) I know this is a simulation of the pacific war, but how does the overall war get modeled in this game? Does any of the other war areas (i.e. europe, africa, etc. come into play in some kind of way?

Only insofar as 1) British withdrawal of certain naval assets from time to time, randomly determined. Withdraw the ships or pay a Political Point penalty. 2) If you use the variable reinforcements switch your reinforcements' arrival dates are randomly accelerated or delayed. That could be considered as due to pressure or lack thereof elsewhere in the war.


Now, quit stalling and start playing! [;)]

Seriously, you'll be happy you took the plunge. Just remember to write your relatives first and explain why they won't be hearing from you as often anymore. [:D]

[Roger Neilson II]

Oh and also think of that $70 as being a payment to become part of this forum - I know you can access it for nothing, but until you play the game you won't appreciate the fine detail, the intense debate and the good hearted ribaldry that makes this a superb community.

And reading or contributing is a way of passing those moments when you are desperate for a turn to arrive from your opponent.

Roger

[wdolson]

Most of these have been answered, but I'll throw in my 2 cents...

ORIGINAL: slybelle
1) Is there somewhere that lists all the improvements that have been made during each patch? I've read the reviews and just curious what has been fixed from the start.

The fixes that have been done for each patch are usually posted to the forum. I have come across the list for different patches when I have been searching. (Some people have claimed the search function on the forum is broken, I've found it isn't great, but it does get there if you are good enough with your search terms.)

One thing that is very unusual in the gaming world is that Martix is still doing fixes to the game this long after it was released. That is probably one reason the price is still $70, but it also means that the problems are getting fixed. The programmers fixing the game are also on the forum and weigh in from time to time.

4) I know this is a monster wargame, so I'm a little concerned if it is too overwhelming. I'm sure each person has a different take on this. I don't mind all the details as long as it doesn't come across over tedious. Any thoughts?

The learning curve for the game is pretty steep. There is also some degree of micromanaging. I tend to have little patience for that kind of thing and at first I found it tedious and boring. I developed a rhythm of running my turns and found that the micromanaging was not a problem after a while.

One thing that has to be micromanaged is convoy movement. The task force plotting routines don't work very well. If you tell a task force to sail from Pearl Harbor to Guadalcanal for example, it will plot the course right through the Marianas Islands which have lots of Japanese land based aircraft just waiting to do bad things to your ships. You have to send your ships to a way point out of the danger zone, then reroute them from there to your destination. After playing a couple of weeks of game time, I set up a couple of way points that all task forces would route to in an area. Every turn, I would check to see if any task forces had arrived at the way point and then I would give them new orders for their destination. It's a bit of a hassle, but once I got into the rhythm it only took a couple of minutes to deal with every task force on a busy day.

I'm not a big gamer, but I usually buy a few a year. Most I get tired of pretty quickly. I've had WitP over 6 months and I feel I'm just beginning to get decent at playing it. There are still things I'm learning about the game. I did manage to beat the AI in a long campaign with an auto victory. I made a lot of mistakes early on though.

I haven't bought another game since buying WitP. My SO and I usually exchange Christmas lists and I usually have some games on there. This year I had none. What I really wanted was more time to play around with WitP. I was in a store yesterday with a bunch of computer games and I saw a bunch that I may have bought a year ago, but I passed them all by. I knew I wouldn't play them because my gaming time (which is limited) is eaten up with WitP.

5) Is there any official add-ons planned or next-gen version coming out anytime soon?

As someone said, there has been talk of a WitP 2, but nothing is firm. Matrix has released another game, War Plan Orange, based on the WitP engine. I think I read somewhere that the game was originally started as a mod to WitP by one of the players and Metrix picked it up. I could be wrong about that though. It is the same engine as WitP though.

WitP has many great fan mods out there. Some try to make some elements of the game work better, such as the Nik mod which models air combat differently. CHS attempts to make the OOB (Order of Battle) for both sides more accurate and versions exist with and without the Nik mod. RHS, which is most actively under development right now tries to be even more accurate with the OOB and has made many mods to the charactristics of units. There are many other mods out there too. There are a number of fan sites with lots of downloads available.

Personally, I think I like CHS the best. But each player has their favorites.

Several utilites written by players are also available.

This is not a game for the people who like a lot of chrome in their games. It is an old fashioned turn based, hex board game. There are some nice graphics (with even more created by fans), but mostly the game is about the simulation and the scale than eye candy. I never liked games with a lot of real time action and I'm more a history buff than a gamer, so this is my kind of game. The game engine is overall very good, and the history is fascinating.

Bill

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: Roger Neilson II

And reading or contributing is a way of passing those moments when you are desperate for a turn to arrive from your opponent.

Roger

Spence where art thou? We've only done three turns today...

[m10bob]

ORIGINAL: Roger Neilson II

Oh and also think of that $70 as being a payment to become part of this forum - I know you can access it for nothing, but until you play the game you won't appreciate the fine detail, the intense debate and the good hearted ribaldry that makes this a superb community.

And reading or contributing is a way of passing those moments when you are desperate for a turn to arrive from your opponent.

Roger

Amen, brother...............[8D]

[m10bob]

Widell sez: "To the point of a demo, I´d say there's no way a demo would sell WITP. It is way to complex."

Widell is absolutely correct!..I almost refused to purchase Steel Panthers because I had gotten a demo, and later I learned it was NOTHING like the game!

IMHO, once you start putting your own offensive fleets together, and loading troop convoys with entire divisions, the thought of the cost of the game will be well behind you......[;)]

[Akos Gergely]

Well, just simply go and get it, you won't regret it

I used to say  WitP is like Sid Meyer's Civ series combined with Transport Tycoon and Panzer/Pacific General. Just throw all the good elements from those games and now you have WitP (of course focused onto the Pacific Theatre of Ops.)

Micro management is not that tedious after you get the feel of it, perhaps the first few turns might bring you a headache but that's the best thing about it: you actually have to think twice and seriously what to do with your resources, be it ships, planes, troops or supplies.

For wdolson!

There is a pretty simply solution for the convoy routing: just select retirement allowed for the convoy,, set the homebase the desired destination base and then select a waypoint in mid-ocean far away from the Betties/Nells and it does the trick, yo you do not have to check that spot each and every turn.

[Reg]

ORIGINAL: slybelle

whoops..must have misread that. Still interested in thoughts, although $70 is kind of steep.

Oh man you got to get a sense of perspective. I paid $60 for a can of paint and it was no fun at all

(though she who must be obeyed seemed happy enough)