Manual Inaccuracies

[Mike Solli]

ORIGINAL: VSWG

Regarding Heavy Industry, the manual states on p. 179 that

"For heavy industry factories at a location to function each day, there must be more resources
stored at that location than heavy industry, and there must be more oil stored at that location than
two times the heavy industry."

This is wrong: Heavy Industry will work if the amount of oil equals the amount of Heavy Industry.

Tested using CHS at Nukufetau (Ellice Islands). The base had 500 oil/res. + 500 HI and converted them to supplies/fuel instantly.

Yes the manual is wrong here, but it was correct until a very early patch came out changing it.

[RUPD3658]

don't have the manual in front of me but the section about AC lost at sea reforming after 270 days is wrong. They return in 90 days.

[VSWG]

Trying to revive a useful thread...

On p. 96 of the manual a table lists the loading efficiency of all ship classes for different items (troops, supplies, fuel...). This table states that AKs can carry 1 fuel/oil point for every 2 points of cargo capacity.

This is only true for fuel. AKs cannot transport oil.

[VSWG]

On p. 193 of the manual (the infamous 'carrier respawn rule'):

"15.1.1 Automatic Ship Replacements

There are several instances in which replacement ships will be provided as reinforcements if a ship is sunk during the game. Replacement ships are generated if:

• An American CV is sunk prior to 1944 will be replaced by an Essex-class CV.
• An American or Australian CA that is sunk prior to 1944 will be replaced by a Baltimore-class CA or a Cleveland-class CL. The replacement class is chosen at random.
• A Minesweeper of any navy that is sunk will be replaced by a similar minesweeper.
  

Whenever a replacement ship is created, it will be placed in the reinforcement list and given an arrival time of around 550 days from the date the original ship was sunk."

While this is not incorrect, it is not the entire truth. 4 US CVs are not included in the Allied OoB and will ONLY appear in the game as replacement for sunken US carriers.

[DuckofTindalos]

So? That's not relevant to the replacement mechanism. And it's only 4 CV's, not 5.

[VSWG]

ORIGINAL: Terminus

So? That's not relevant to the replacement mechanism. And it's only 4 CV's, not 5.

True, technically speaking it is a database error. However I think it was done on purpose, and therefore should have been mentioned in the manual. Since they removed the carriers that historically replaced sunken CVs (if only in name), this is IMO be the place where it should be mentioned.

Corrected the number to 4. Thanks.

[wworld7]

ORIGINAL: VSWG

ORIGINAL: Terminus

So? That's not relevant to the replacement mechanism. And it's only 4 CV's, not 5.

True, technically speaking it is a database error. However I think it was done on purpose, and therefore should have been mentioned in the manual. Since they removed the carriers that historically replaced sunken CVs (if only in name), this is IMO be the place where it should be mentioned.

Corrected the number to 4. Thanks.

VSWG,

Do you have any idea how big the manual would be if every design choice made had an entry. While the WITP manuel could have been better written, I accept that it is less than perfect, as many manuals are. Such is life.

IMO, there were more pressing needs for resources.

[RUPD3658]

R&D factories do not automatically advance the due date of a new AC with every 100 produced. It is a die roll (and not a very good one if it is more than a few months away).

[VSWG]

Regarding the conversion of armament points to devices, the manual states on p. 180/181:

"When a non-vehicle weapon or squad is required to fill out or replace a ground unit element, 1 armament point and 1 manpower point will be expended from their pools for each load cost of the unit (For example, a newly created SNLF squad will use up 13 armaments points and 13 manpower points and a newly created 70mm Howitzer will use up 8 armaments points and 8 manpower points)."

A test by pompack in this thread (tm.asp?m=961071) revealed every armament point "produced" between 6,3 and 9,9 load points.

[MineSweeper]

Just a small tidbit.....
No 2000 lb. AP bomb in the US arsenal (only 1600 lb. AP and 2000lb. GP)

- Allied heavy (4E) Level Bombers from January 1943 can sometimes use 2000 pound AP bombs.
- To carry both of these, Units must pass Skill rolls, Experience rolls and, in case of heavy bombers, there must be Supplies
at Base >= 2 * required Supply level.
- These AP bombs can only be used in normal range, against naval targets.

Here is a listing of all US ordance-

[rtrapasso]

ORIGINAL: MineSweeper

Just a small tidbit.....
No 2000 lb. AP bomb in the US arsenal (only 1600 lb. AP and 2000lb. GP)

- Allied heavy (4E) Level Bombers from January 1943 can sometimes use 2000 pound AP bombs.
- To carry both of these, Units must pass Skill rolls, Experience rolls and, in case of heavy bombers, there must be Supplies
at Base >= 2 * required Supply level.
- These AP bombs can only be used in normal range, against naval targets.

Here is a listing of all US ordance-

Strangely, it seems to have left out some bombs from this chart.

IIRC - the Navy had a special AP bomb that was over 2000 lbs which was available early in the war, but required the SBDs to leave some of the crew behind (due to weight, i guess). Not sure how many they had, or how often it was used (i suspect few, and rarely, respectively.)

EDIT: Unfortunately, i can't find a reference to the bomb right now... perhaps it was the 1600 pound bomb, but i thought it was even heavier than the 2000 pounder... and i seem to recall it was made from naval shells (like the Japanese AP). They were available at the battle of Midway, but would have required drastically shortened range of the SBD.

[MineSweeper]

My research.....2000 AP lb. bomb for use by 4 engine bombers against shipping......[:-] Never Done in the Pacific (2000 lb. AP = no such thing)

I check (Shatterd Sword) and the Daultless maxed out at 1000 lb. AP Bomb

Experts out there - Can a SDB carry a 1600 lb. AP Bomb ?

[1EyedJacks]

ORIGINAL: treespider

I would like to compile a list of all KNOWN manual inaccuracies. To assist me in this endeavor I would like to enlist the forums assistance. So if you know of inaccuracies in the manual please add them to this thread...

However let's have some ground rules...

1. Don't speculate [:-] that you think the manual is wrong or in error concerning a particular topic.
2. If you KNOW it is wrong - cite where and why and if possible provide an in game example.
3. I am not looking for a wishlist of new things ...just a list of inaccuracies..

Thank you in advance for your submissions!!!

This must be some kind of a plot to make me read the manual. Oh you are sneaky - you almost had me there...[;)]

[MineSweeper]

The manual was a subversive attempt to hide the true nature of this devious Simulation..[:D]

[rtrapasso]

ORIGINAL: MineSweeper

My research.....2000 AP lb. bomb for use by 4 engine bombers against shipping......[:-] Never Done in the Pacific (2000 lb. AP = no such thing)

I check (Shatterd Sword) and the Daultless maxed out at 1000 lb. AP Bomb

Experts out there - Can a SDB carry a 1600 lb. AP Bomb ?

As far as 2000 lb. AP vs shipping - no, since a 2000 lb. AP bomb didn't exist in inventory. However, 2-engine bombers could and did carry 2 x 1600 lb. AP bombs for use against shipping (of course, not in game, since 1600 lb. AP bomb is not in game.)

As far as the SBD carrying a heavy bomb - as i mentioned, they had to leave part of the crew behind to do it, limited the aircraft range - and i am not sure the bomb i mentioned was ever used in combat.

EDIT - according to WIKI article, max armament for SBD was 2250 lbs (1020 kg). No mention of distribution limits, alas.

iirc - Shattered Sword never mentioned the heavy AP bombs that were available. i am still struggling to remember where i read about it. it HAS been mentioned on the forum before (some time ago) but i recall reading about it elsewhere... maybe (??) it was in Fire From the Sky - but i read a library copy, and don't own it so can't readily check.

From what i recall about the heavy AP bomb, there were very limited numbers. i suspect it was something built in the 1930s and left around at the beginning of the war in only small numbers.

[MineSweeper]

Intresting - never heard of a SBD carrying more than one 1000 lb. bomb.....
I am very intrested to see a B-24 or 17 with 1600 lb. AP bombs loaded (were the 17s or 26s at Midway armed with these 1600 lb. AP bombs?)

[rtrapasso]

ORIGINAL: MineSweeper

Intresting - never heard of a SBD carrying more than one 1000 lb. bomb.....
I am very intrested to see a B-24 or 17 with 1600 lb. AP bombs loaded (were the 17s or 26s at Midway armed with these 1600 lb. AP bombs?)

i think the 1600 lb AP didn't come into service then... i'll see if i can find more data.

[rtrapasso]

RATS!!

i had a bunch of URLs indexed for this data - all of them seem to have evaporated!!! [:@]

So far, my searches are coming up dry.

As far the the B-17s etc at Midway - i am pretty sure they were armed with 500 pounders (or less), but again, i'd have to find a reference.

[rtrapasso]

UPDATE: In trying to research the heavy AP bomb that i had read was available in limited quantities at Midway - i ran across another US bomb not in the chart: the 600 lb. bomb.

According to The Office of Naval Intelligence Battle of Midway Combat Narrative (see
http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/USN ... way-6.html )

B-17s could carry it. i thought it was a typo until i ran across this:

"This group of 15 planes was commanded by Lt. Col. Sweeney, U.S.A. Air Corps. Two planes carried eight 600-pound bombs each and the rest eight 500-pound bombs each."

i suspect this and the other bomb type i am looking for (the AP heavy) were available only in limited quantity, no longer manufactured, and used up quickly.

[rtrapasso]

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

UPDATE: In trying to research the heavy AP bomb that i had read was available in limited quantities at Midway - i ran across another US bomb not in the chart: the 600 lb. bomb.

According to The Office of Naval Intelligence Battle of Midway Combat Narrative (see
http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/USN ... way-6.html )

B-17s could carry it. i thought it was a typo until i ran across this:

"This group of 15 planes was commanded by Lt. Col. Sweeney, U.S.A. Air Corps. Two planes carried eight 600-pound bombs each and the rest eight 500-pound bombs each."

i suspect this and the other bomb type i am looking for (the AP heavy) were available only in limited quantity, no longer manufactured, and used up quickly.

Still looking for that reference - Nik said he thought it was either the 1600 lb Mk or a converted M63 AP shell that was contemplated use was at Midway (18 available on the Enterprise.) There use was contemplated against the retreating heavy cruisers (Mogami and Mikuma.)

i am beginning to think i read about this some time ago rather than the 1 or 2 years ago i originally thought. i remember the bomb was heavier than anything the Allies had in WITP (standard), but if this was more than a couple of years ago, this could mean it was before WITP introduced the 2000 lb. AP weapon.

So, unfortunately, i must widen my search considerably... it might have been from any number of books, but my main suspects are Morrison's history, as well as Fire in the Sky, as well as Combined Fleet Decoded and Dull's history... i none of these available to hand...

Meanwhile - if you have it available there is John Campbell's Naval Weapons of WWII that might bear checking (i don't have this one - yet).

Also, i keep finding B-17s using bombs not seen in WITP such (besides 250, 500, and 1000 pound bombs) - 300, 600 and 1100 pound bombs. These are seen in various official reports available on the internet (and elsewhere) - i've already quoted the reference for the 600 pound bomb. There are references to the others in the Official Report of Action 4-6 June 1942

EDIT: i did reread relevant parts of The First Team and Shattered Sword - without finding mention of these AP weapons, but then again, they didn't mention the other types of US bombs except 100, 250, 500 and 1000 pound types (and none of them in detail).