Rape of Nanking video

[DuckofTindalos]

I won't call it a propaganda film because of the subject matter, any more than I would call a film about the Holocaust with dubbed-on screaming propaganda. Both events are historical facts, without the least shadow of doubt.

I'm protesting the sledgehammer approach to the presentation.

[Demosthenes]

ORIGINAL: Terminus

I won't call it a propaganda film because of the subject matter, any more than I would call a film about the Holocaust with dubbed-on screaming propaganda. Both events are historical facts, without the least shadow of doubt.

I'm protesting the sledgehammer approach to the presentation.

I'm sure the Chinese did too [;)]

But I understand what you mean...

[myros]

Propoganda isnt a negative term in the absolute sense. The US released tons of it during the war, for the most part there was no lies involved ... just 'truth' slanted to a specific perspective and often for a specific purpose (war bonds etc).
 
This film is a similar thing IMO. No country is immune to blame for terrible things done (think the firestorm bombings in europe were pleasant to live through?). Such is war sadly. Hopefully some day we'll grow out of it.
 
Myros

[Demosthenes]

ORIGINAL: myros

Propoganda isnt a negative term in the absolute sense. The US released tons of it during the war, for the most part there was no lies involved ... just 'truth' slanted to a specific perspective and often for a specific purpose (war bonds etc).

This film is a similar thing IMO. No country is immune to blame for terrible things done (think the firestorm bombings in europe were pleasant to live through?). Such is war sadly. Hopefully some day we'll grow out of it.

Myros

Yes we all do bad things in war and Japan was no worse than anyone else - and was goaded into the war by white imperialists ..if it makes you guys feel better.


But you are all lying to yourselves BIG TIME if you think the Japanese comming to your town was no diferent or worse than the Western Allies coming to your town.

I'll let it go at that.

[myros]

Yup yup, all allies were angels and all japanese were devils ... glad to see all that propoganda didnt go to waste ;)
 
You misunderstood my point anyway, the things depicted were awful, evil acts ..no doubt or argument there. I was just commenting on the nature of truth as propoganda. Im sure film of people burning alive in the firestorms would be just as horrific (and killed FAR more people). Not excusing for one minute what the japanese forces did in Nanking, but like I sad no country was blameless to acts of horror. Just a sad truth.
 
Myros
 
 

[Demosthenes]

ORIGINAL: myros

Yup yup, all allies were angels and all japanese were devils ... glad to see all that propoganda didnt go to waste

You misunderstood my point anyway, the things depicted were awful, evil acts ..no doubt or argument there. I was just commenting on the nature of truth as propoganda. Im sure film of people burning alive in the firestorms would be just as horrific (and killed FAR more people). Not excusing for one minute what the japanese forces did in Nanking, but like I sad no country was blameless to acts of horror. Just a sad truth.

Myros

Uh huh - just ask yourself if you would rather take your chances in an allied bombing with incindiaries, or would like to see your family rounded up, bayoneted and - oh what's the use...

We all now live in a world of moral equvilance and political correctness.

[DuckofTindalos]

How did I know this was gonna happen?

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: Terminus

The video also claims that the Chinese never invaded a foreign country before they were attacked by the Japanese. This is blatantly incorrect; Tibet and Mongolia were among the places to feel the military attention of the Qing dynasty in the 1700's.

I presume they meant the country of China as it was at the time. Remember that the emperor had been deposed a number of years before, and the government was totally different. Crediting 1930's China with what the Qing dynasty did in the 1700's is sort of like crediting Italy with invading the UK (Roman empire invading Briton).

Either way, the claim and counter-claim are both irrelevant to the point of the film.

[DuckofTindalos]

After the video made the claim that making war on foreign nations is basically against the character of the Chinese people, that argument sort of flew out the window. I'll admit to only watching the first 40 minutes or so of it before my propaganda allergies kicked in...

[Demosthenes]

Well, before the thread gets closed ...

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: Terminus

After the video made the claim that making war on foreign nations is basically against the character of the Chinese people, that argument sort of flew out the window. I'll admit to only watching the first 40 minutes or so of it before my propaganda allergies kicked in...

Didn't catch that part in your earlier post. You're quite right.

A few thoughts.

For the record, I believe that ALL people are capable of atrocities, and that ALL cultures are capable of creating and fostering the environment for such acts. Looking back through history it would be difficult - probably impossible if known history were actually complete - to find a group of people who have not perpetrated major wrongs upon other people. It would be ludicrous to consider a certain people or society forever stigmatized.

We must realize this is part of human nature and deal with it through education and demanding individual responsibility in society (that does not mean liability in the run-amok legal sense we have today). The notion that other societies/members thereof have done such and such is not an excuse. Moral equivalence and political correctness, which can ultimately result in the refusal to make a judgment about something that is wrong, are harmful.

Sometimes terrible things are justified in war, and such 'collateral' tragedies are not atrocities, however unfortunate and awful they are. Being paralyzed for fear of doing anything wrong (or the legal liabilities associated with it) would surely result in worse consequences for the world. Sometimes tough decisions must be made.

And most of all ...

[Demosthenes]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

... Moral equivalence and political correctness, which can ultimately result in the refusal to make a judgment about something that is wrong, are harmful.

Sometimes terrible things are justified in war, and such 'collateral' tragedies are not atrocities, however unfortunate and awful they are. Being paralyzed for fear of doing anything wrong (or the legal liabilities associated with it) would surely result in worse consequences for the world. Sometimes tough decisions must be made.

And most of all ...

Thank you for stating that.

The problem I have with moral equivalence is precisely what you stated above. War is horrible, which is why it should not be taken lightly (and why Robert E. Lee once said "It is well that war is so horrible, otherwise we might grow too fond of it").

But sometimes war IS necessary - and no society should be afraid of it, simply because it is so. A murderer should not be left unmolested simply because killing him is unpleasant.

If we have come to the point of thinking that doing what it took to stop the Axis powers in the Second World War made us no better than they were at that time - then we have lost any meaning of morality and we have become morally bankrupt and truly decadent.

I also recognize that a Pacific War game forum is bound to get derision from fans of the Axis side (who simply enjoy playing that side for nonpolitical reasons) but I would still hope that everyone could separate game play from reality.

Apparently some cannot and that is a pity - for their own souls.

[Nikademus]

ORIGINAL: Terminus

How did I know this was gonna happen?

you've become one of the "Heroes" from Sci-Fi and your power has activated.

That or this happened before recently.....at least this time it didn't devolve down to comparing attrocities between Native Americans and Chinese. [8|]

(not yet at least)

[Sardaukar]

But...but...what happened to the Last of the Mohicans ? [:D][8D]

[Big B]

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

But...but...what happened to the Last of the Mohicans ? [:D][8D]

I think he owns an Indian Casino out near San Diego. [:D]

[siRkid]

I think everyone should read the book The Rape of Nanking by Iris Chang. I made a big mistake one year. I was in a bookstore and I found a singed copy of the book. Because I was on vacation with little money to spare and I already had the book I did not buy it. I still regret that decision.
 
One day a college student (a friend of my son) was over the house and we got into a discussion about the War in the Pacific. He was actually defending the Japanese and blaming America for overreacting and dropping the bomb. I simply handing him the book, made him look at the photos and told him to read the book and then we would talk about it again. After he looked at the photos, he changed the subject and changed the conversation. He never did read the book.
 

[Procrustes]

I've spent a little time working and traveling around China, and was lucky enough to spend a week in Nanjing a couple of years ago.  There is an excellent memorial/museum to the atrocities there, and you can also visit the place where the Japanese breached the old city wall with their cannon. 

It's a lovely city if you ever get to go - my favorite place in China so far. 

(PS - the Chinese National Military History Museum in Beijing is really cool, too - has a very large exhibit on the war with Japan and the Chinese revolution.  The exhibit on the Korean War was fascinating, too - obviously hadn't been updated or translated since US/China relations warmed.)

[Panther Bait]

I think part of what makes Nanking so terrible, is that the bulk of the attrocities happened after the city had been taken and the remnants of the Chinese army had moved on.  I don't recall their being any sort of guerilla activity there either.

[hawker]

Atomic bomb is overreaction to anything.
Japanese did a terible atrocities,nazis also,fascist also.
Just dont tell me that atomic bomb is not an atrocity.
That is my opinion.

[Demosthenes]

ORIGINAL: hawker

Atomic bomb is overreaction to anything.
Japanese did a terible atrocities,nazis also,fascist also.
Just dont tell me that atomic bomb is not an atrocity.
That is my opinion.

Hawker, there is a diference between using a "Terrible" weapon to end a long ugly war, and comitting "atrocities" on civilians for pleasure.

I'll let you figure out the rest.