RHS 5 & 6.758 comprehensive update uploaded/frozen/final?

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m10bob
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RE: RHS x.30

Post by m10bob »

ORIGINAL: el cid again

I am finging massive and gross changes to Allied naval units. Investigating radar, I found ships appearing months - or a year - too late in time. I found ships running at 20 knots that should cruise at 14 - and doing so with a lot less fuel than they really needed to run at 14. I found ships without radar that had nice suites (e.g. Hawkins class), and ships that were given radars which never got any (including 2 US battleships). I found no instance of any submarine (and cross checking in any mod) which as both AS and SS radar - but now many do. Ships often were given their late war AA suites too early - and too much radar and/or the wrong kinds of radar - but not often did ships have backup radars later in the war when IRL they did.

The revisions are big enough to justify bumping the version number. This is a different game. It is not wholly clear what it means? But in general the Allies are not going to intercept at such great distances from naval units. The numbers of air search radars at sea are greatly reduced - while the numbers of surface search radars greatly increased - and both somewhat more delayed in time. This may make surface battles more deadly - making targets easier to find. It may mean players need to pay attention to their ships with AS radar - many cruisers and battleships lack any at all - and those that have it may be valuable assets in task groups subject to air attack. Regardless of the impacts - we try to get the data right.

Good gosh!!!..Does this mean there may be a better chance of surface units intercepting at sea more often?? If so, this gices AMC's and raiders and all surface ships more of their historical capabilities!!!!
That would be a major development!
(It would favor all parties,equally, and give Japanese DD's with their Long Lances the ability to really mess up Allied plans !!)
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el cid again
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RE: RHS 5.5 and 6.5 uploading (sans EOS)

Post by el cid again »

Having upgraded over a thousand Allied ship classes -

and I don't want to think about how many thousands of ships -

and converted some Chindit Brigades to use Ghurka and British squads -

and revised the revised radar scheme yet again

and applying that to hundreds of Allied land units

I think we are back where I thought we were before it was pointed out radar was messed up.

That is - virtually done with 5 scenarios at 2 levels - and I can work on EOS at last - itself almost done.

I will surrender these files for data washing - there will be a x.51 version - and any eratta reported I will fold in
before uploadint that version. It may take some time - as I didn't turn them over when there was time to wash them -
and these are awfully clean files. The time to execute a turn is dramatically down - but it goes up as more and more units enter play - so it isn't a fixed value. On one test bed turn exectue time for AI vs AI starts at 80 seconds.

ETA on the EOS scenario: Tuesday.

ETA on Level 7: 1 February - if you guys don't find any more major bugs.

The radar problems went back to stock - and were severe - but I probably made as big a mess as anyone else by the way I introduced the SK. I should have done this review long ago.

Investigating R12 before uploading - just in case revision is appropriate.
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Mifune
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RE: RHS 5.5 and 6.5 uploading (sans EOS)

Post by Mifune »

Looks like we need to spend some time to review and test all these changes.
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el cid again
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RE: RHS 5.5 and 6.5 uploading (sans EOS)

Post by el cid again »

Uploaded.

This should not be very dirty.

However, you may need to adjust your playing style to a new system.

ASW may be a lot more effective (because more surface search radar). Air defense may be harder for the Allies (because fewer radars with less range on ships - but ashore range has increased a bit). Certainly newer ships - or old ships with upgraded radars - will be more valuable - and many will "degrade gracefully" due to the presence of backup radars.

I forgot to say: I added radar picket destroyers and submarines - for USN.
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RE: RHS 5.5 and 6.5 uploading (sans EOS)

Post by el cid again »

ORIGINAL: el cid again

Uploaded.

This should not be very dirty.

However, you may need to adjust your playing style to a new system.

ASW may be a lot more effective (because more surface search radar). Air defense may be harder for the Allies (because fewer radars with less range on ships - but ashore range has increased a bit). Certainly newer ships - or old ships with upgraded radars - will be more valuable - and many will "degrade gracefully" due to the presence of backup radars.

I forgot to say: I added radar picket destroyers and submarines - for USN.

I expect by the time I release EOS any bugs will be reported.
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RE: RHS 5.5 and 6.5 uploading (sans EOS)

Post by Dili »

 
 
Bad Points: Continue IJN static northern units that should be Home Defense in Amami and Sakashima; Truk continues to be a mess a 4th Fleet base with Southeast Fleet static units; Shinshu Maru continues in limbo; Wasnt supposed to be corrected but i must stress that Japanese CA´s have many things wrong; from 32 torp in Nachis to 24 in Chokai/Maya, to side torpedos in Agano instead centerline not even going to AA; DP guns instead of Naval Guns in Yugumos and Kageros. Some of this errors were not in stock.
Type 2 depth charges in Tomodzuru when they only started to be operational in 1942.
 
Good Points: Kwajalein; Ponape; Palau; Saipan corrected; Whole mess that apparently came since stock in Northern area corrected (still some Home def units there and i am not sure if northern Honsho should be Northern Area but these are minor points.) Many duplicates and update paths were corrected.
 
 
el cid again
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RE: RHS 5.5 and 6.5 uploading (sans EOS)

Post by el cid again »

ORIGINAL: Dili

 

Bad Points: Continue IJN static northern units that should be Home Defense in Amami and Sakashima;

REPLY: Only the forts are supposed to be static - which they are; the naval station units are technically movable - and appear static because they (incorrectly) retain "static facility squads" AFTER I have withdrawn these from almost every unit (the exceptions being major command HQ in some cases - representing massive immobile infrastructures not associated with large numbers of squads in a field organization sense). Look for them to become mobile. AI will move them when it should not - but the forts will remain - so I can live with that.


Truk continues to be a mess a 4th Fleet base with Southeast Fleet static units;

REPLY: You have forgotten that this is what you recommended. Truk is actually Southeast Fleet - as is all of Nanyo (the Carolines). 4th Fleet is SOUTH of Truk - and NOTHING YET exists for 4th fleet to use as a base! Now I have reassigned some parts of the Eastern Carolines to 4th Fleet in EOS - but these scenarios are more historical - and you can't see that yet. Whatever it is assigned to - Truk MUST BE mixed - since 4th fleet units must be there at start -
and so must SE fleet units - it being the very heart of SE fleet area.


Shinshu Maru continues in limbo;

REPLY: In what way? I am not having any problem with it - except of course that it cannot do all the things Shinshu Maru could do - however it is cast it only has some capabilities.

Wasnt supposed to be corrected but i must stress that Japanese CA´s have many things wrong; from 32 torp in Nachis to 24 in Chokai/Maya,

REPLY: Suggest you look it up again. This is prefectly correct - in both cases - and the reason I regard these as the world's premier surface warships. Not only do they carry Long Lance- they carry reloads. Fabulous concept - and one I love to exploit in tactical games. [I grew up "pushing lead" aka Fletcher Pratt - and I also do computer simulations.
I am a torpedo master, and I once "won" the Battle of the Java Sea with ALLIED torpedoes - in a convention situation with no time to think. That is a lot harder to do than win a battle with Long Lance.]


to side torpedos in Agano instead centerline not even going to AA;

REPLY: Presumably you don't mean that Agano is a CA. I will look at the torpedoes. I do not understand how a torpedo can "go to AA" however?

DP guns instead of Naval Guns in Yugumos and Kageros. Some of this errors were not in stock.

REPLY: This is a difficult one to do right. There are different kinds of 5 inch 50s, and we have limited slots.
Technically most of these ships had "DP" guns - because they could elevate above 45 degrees. But the 50 was not an ideal AA gun - too slow a rate of traverse to be completely effective. Thus Takishi Hara had to NOT maneuver vs an attacking bomber in order to shoot it down. Using skip bombing - something that almost always worked - he instead not only got the bomber - but the bomb missed - because the American's aimed ASSUMING he would turn (losing way).
It is a rare success for the "long 5" - but UNLESS you rate it as DP it can NEVER do that.

Type 2 depth charges in Tomodzuru when they only started to be operational in 1942.

REPLY: This may be an error of a classical sort for WITP: fields slip one - apparently the way the editor works. Until reported, no software will detect it - and no one looks at all 133,000 fields - nor knows how to spot this sort of error. Type 2 indeed means 1942 - not because Japan used the Western calendar - but because the Japanese calendar also ends in the same final digit! Few people know how to read "Type" = year - but you do - and you are right.

Good Points: Kwajalein; Ponape; Palau; Saipan corrected; Whole mess that apparently came since stock in Northern area corrected (still some Home def units there and i am not sure if northern Honsho should be Northern Area but these are minor points.)

REPLY: The Northern Area apparently was virtually NOTHING - and in order to work the AI needs some assets to play with. Having the Tsugaru Straits NOT under a unified command is probably a bad idea - but I changed it for economic rather than military reasons - to help the AI.

Many duplicates and update paths were corrected.

el cid again
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RE: RHS 5 and 6 micro update plan

Post by el cid again »

Dili put me onto the fact certain kinds of errors are beyond utilities to find - so I went hunting
and found some issues which I will correct in a microupdate - very shortly.

Some formation issues are severe enough that I recommend waiting for 5.01 micro update before doing
more than running tests or looking for eratta.

This will not take long - but I better look at all formations.
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RE: Level 6.51 micro update (sans EOS)

Post by el cid again »

Level 6.51 microupdate -

just 3 files - location, class and ship - plus the comment identifying the version - for 5 scenarios posted (NOT EOS)

This update fixes formation errors in 3 of the 5 scenarios

fixes Japanese naval stations with respect to name, command, formation pointer or device listings

and fixes the Agano class cruisers - moving their torpedoes to the centerline
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TulliusDetritus
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RE: Level 6.01 micro update (sans EOS)

Post by TulliusDetritus »

El Cid Again, sorry, I'm lost. The last scenario I have downloaded (CVO): 6,5.

Isn't 6,5 > 6,01? Or 6,01 is de facto supposed to be superior to 6,5? [&:]
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el cid again
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RE: Level 6.01 micro update (sans EOS)

Post by el cid again »

No - you are not lost. I am old, senile and exhausted from little sleep after four days of entering data! Go back and look again - it is now 6.51!!!
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RE: Level 6.01 micro update (sans EOS)

Post by TulliusDetritus »

Thanks for the quick reply. Ok, this will be the 6,51 then. Now it makes sense [:)]
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RE: Level 5.51 and 6.51 micro updates uploaded (Sans EOS)

Post by el cid again »

5.51 micro update files now in the upload process
Dili
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RE: Level 6.01 micro update (sans EOS)

Post by Dili »

Bad Points: Continue IJN static northern units that should be Home Defense in Amami and Sakashima;

REPLY: Only the forts are supposed to be static - which they are; the naval station units are technically movable - and appear static because they (incorrectly) retain "static facility squads" AFTER I have withdrawn these from almost every unit (the exceptions being major command HQ in some cases - representing massive immobile infrastructures not associated with large numbers of squads in a field organization sense). Look for them to become mobile. AI will move them when it should not - but the forts will remain - so I can live with that.
 
That is not my point. It is simple: why that units are in Northern Command when they are near Formosa in a Home HQ Islands.
Truk continues to be a mess a 4th Fleet base with Southeast Fleet static units;
 
REPLY: You have forgotten that this is what you recommended. Truk is actually Southeast Fleet - as is all of Nanyo (the Carolines). 4th Fleet is SOUTH of Truk - and NOTHING YET exists for 4th fleet to use as a base! Now I have reassigned some parts of the Eastern Carolines to 4th Fleet in EOS - but these scenarios are more historical - and you can't see that yet. Whatever it is assigned to - Truk MUST BE mixed - since 4th fleet units must be there at start -
and so must SE fleet units - it being the very heart of SE fleet area.
 
No, my advice was to put static units in same ownership of the base. Like it is now in Palaus; Saipan;Ponape; Kwajalein

 
Shinshu Maru continues in limbo;

REPLY: In what way? I am not having any problem with it - except of course that it cannot do all the things Shinshu Maru could do - however it is cast it only has some capabilities.
 
I dont have it in the game (CVO) only in database.
 
Wasnt supposed to be corrected but i must stress that Japanese CA´s have many things wrong; from 32 torp in Nachis to 24 in Chokai/Maya,

REPLY: Suggest you look it up again. This is prefectly correct - in both cases - and the reason I regard these as the world's premier surface warships. Not only do they carry Long Lance- they carry reloads. Fabulous concept - and one I love to exploit in tactical games. [I grew up "pushing lead" aka Fletcher Pratt - and I also do computer simulations.
I am a torpedo master, and I once "won" the Battle of the Java Sea with ALLIED torpedoes - in a convention situation with no time to think. That is a lot harder to do than win a battle with Long Lance.
 
Nachis had 24 torps total for 4 quadruple installations; Maya and Chokai had only 4 double(4x2) installations since they werent updated before the war. Total 16 Torpedoes. Only Maya was updated to 16 tubes(4x4) when converted to CLAA.
to side torpedos in Agano instead centerline not even going to AA;
REPLY: Presumably you don't mean that Agano is a CA. I will look at the torpedoes. I do not understand how a torpedo can "go to AA" however?
 
Sorry I bungled the english for the sake of speed. No may point is that the minor AA continues to be wrong mainly in CLs and minor errors in CAs.  
 
DP guns instead of Naval Guns in Yugumos and Kageros. Some of this errors were not in stock.

REPLY: This is a difficult one to do right. There are different kinds of 5 inch 50s, and we have limited slots.
Technically most of these ships had "DP" guns - because they could elevate above 45 degrees. But the 50 was not an ideal AA gun - too slow a rate of traverse to be completely effective. Thus Takishi Hara had to NOT maneuver vs an attacking bomber in order to shoot it down. Using skip bombing - something that almost always worked - he instead not only got the bomber - but the bomb missed - because the American's aimed ASSUMING he would turn (losing way).
It is a rare success for the "long 5" - but UNLESS you rate it as DP it can NEVER do that.
 
Since that was a design decision i will not bug you anymore because that, but my opinion is that
there were many instances in war were main armament was fired against skip bombing and torpedo bombers that by definition they fly low. We also dont model japanese main gun AA round and i am sure it scared some pilots at begining . This is a design decision that in facts turns Kageros and Yugumos in pre Akitzukis but it is also your game.
 
Type 2 depth charges in Tomodzuru when they only started to be operational in 1942.

REPLY: This may be an error of a classical sort for WITP: fields slip one - apparently the way the editor works. Until reported, no software will detect it - and no one looks at all 133,000 fields - nor knows how to spot this sort of error. Type 2 indeed means 1942 - not because Japan used the Western calendar - but because the Japanese calendar also ends in the same final digit! Few people know how to read "Type" = year - but you do - and you are right.
 
Actually since i never saw any type 2 at start of war in any japanese ship so that surprised me and i checked it. I didnt know that type 2 means 1942. 
Good Points: Kwajalein; Ponape; Palau; Saipan corrected; Whole mess that apparently came since stock in Northern area corrected (still some Home def units there and i am not sure if northern Honsho should be Northern Area but these are minor points.)

REPLY: The Northern Area apparently was virtually NOTHING - and in order to work the AI needs some assets to play with. Having the Tsugaru Straits NOT under a unified command is probably a bad idea - but I changed it for economic rather than military reasons - to help the AI. 
 
Good option then.
 
 
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RE: Level 6.01 micro update (sans EOS)

Post by Monter_Trismegistos »

CVO 5.51: Misspelling in Airgroups 1060 - 1063, 1066 - 1068, 1070, 1087 : Persuit instead of Pursuit
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el cid again
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RE: Level 6.01 micro update (sans EOS)

Post by el cid again »

ORIGINAL: Dili

Truk continues to be a mess a 4th Fleet base with Southeast Fleet static units;

REPLY: You have forgotten that this is what you recommended. Truk is actually Southeast Fleet - as is all of Nanyo (the Carolines). 4th Fleet is SOUTH of Truk - and NOTHING YET exists for 4th fleet to use as a base! Now I have reassigned some parts of the Eastern Carolines to 4th Fleet in EOS - but these scenarios are more historical - and you can't see that yet. Whatever it is assigned to - Truk MUST BE mixed - since 4th fleet units must be there at start -
and so must SE fleet units - it being the very heart of SE fleet area.

No, my advice was to put static units in same ownership of the base. Like it is now in Palaus; Saipan;Ponape; Kwajalein

You still do not grasp the situation at Truk: One may assign it to EITHER fleet - but since BOTH fleets land units MUST begin there - one cannot have it assigned to both - and there must always be units at the base assigned to the "wrong" command. UNLESS we change ALL 4th Fleet units to SE Fleet - make the base SE Fleet - and in that case we just killed 4th Fleet in AI games. 4th Fleet locations are not yet Japanese controlled - so where do their units go? I use the command as a way to "program" (indicate) to AI "this unit should move South, that one not."
el cid again
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RE: Level 6.01 micro update (sans EOS)

Post by el cid again »

ORIGINAL: Dili

REPLY: Suggest you look it up again. This is prefectly correct - in both cases - and the reason I regard these as the world's premier surface warships. Not only do they carry Long Lance- they carry reloads. Fabulous concept - and one I love to exploit in tactical games. [I grew up "pushing lead" aka Fletcher Pratt - and I also do computer simulations.
I am a torpedo master, and I once "won" the Battle of the Java Sea with ALLIED torpedoes - in a convention situation with no time to think. That is a lot harder to do than win a battle with Long Lance.

Nachis had 24 torps total for 4 quadruple installations; Maya and Chokai had only 4 double(4x2) installations since they werent updated before the war. Total 16 Torpedoes. Only Maya was updated to 16 tubes(4x4) when converted to CLAA.


There are literally thousands of cases where members of a class differ from the nominal class in this detail or that. Unless we create a new class - as we do for example with Mogami so she can rebuild as a seaplane semicarrier but her sisters cannot - it is not possible to address this problem. Even if we are willing to do that - and I spent countless THOUSANDS of hours redoing Japanese ships in tiny little detail - there is still a matter of TIME: it would take many man years to do them all - and long before we get there we will run out of class slots. A modder is an artist of compromise - and the details of that differ - and may not be easily reconciled with real data. How do you tell AI
"there are 1.5 reloads per tube" for example? You MUST say "1" or "2" - the field does not accept fractions. [The ships were designed for 2 reloads and didn't carry them for reasons of safety and stability. But the space was available, and other combinations of loading/ballast are possible. IJN was much more prone to err on the side of too much punch and too little safety than we, and we were much more willing to err on the same sort of thing than RN was.] And perhaps it is in some sense "better" to "keep it simple" - to force standardization on a class: this was a USN policy (often dishonored in tiny details, but very often a ship got what was "good enough" because it was cheaper and faster to do it the same as the ship before her in the stocks). Real ships have real captains and crews intimately familiar with their differences - advantages and disadvantages. Players are managing thousands (no exaggeration) of ships - and it may be more playable if they can count on "a Tone is a Tone" - and not need to worry about how Chikuma differs.
el cid again
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RE: Level 6.01 micro update (sans EOS)

Post by el cid again »

ORIGINAL: Dili

to side torpedos in Agano instead centerline not even going to AA;
REPLY: Presumably you don't mean that Agano is a CA. I will look at the torpedoes. I do not understand how a torpedo can "go to AA" however?

Sorry I bungled the english for the sake of speed. No may point is that the minor AA continues to be wrong mainly in CLs and minor errors in CAs.  



OK - it is the normal case - even with "standardized" ships like Fletchers - that the light AA is different ship to ship.
In general - you see three cases in RHS:

a) It is what was in CHS 155 (the file set modders work on) OR possibly CHS 177 (a later version from which only a few things got lifted) - RHS is CHS 155 modified when it branched - with devices and land units moved back to stock positions when CHS and RHS decided to do that.

b) It is the first form the ship appeared with - or the start of war configuration;

c) It is some upgrade after that.

B and C require I pick a real ship - usually the leader of the class - and real dates - usually the dates from 155 -
and use the configuration at war start or on that date for that ship. This means ALL other members of the class
that differ in ANY detail - including the date of conversion - are (at least momentarily) "wrong". Fact of life.



















el cid again
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RE: Level 6.01 micro update (sans EOS)

Post by el cid again »

ORIGINAL: Dili

DP guns instead of Naval Guns in Yugumos and Kageros. Some of this errors were not in stock.

REPLY: This is a difficult one to do right. There are different kinds of 5 inch 50s, and we have limited slots.
Technically most of these ships had "DP" guns - because they could elevate above 45 degrees. But the 50 was not an ideal AA gun - too slow a rate of traverse to be completely effective. Thus Takishi Hara had to NOT maneuver vs an attacking bomber in order to shoot it down. Using skip bombing - something that almost always worked - he instead not only got the bomber - but the bomb missed - because the American's aimed ASSUMING he would turn (losing way).
It is a rare success for the "long 5" - but UNLESS you rate it as DP it can NEVER do that.

Since that was a design decision i will not bug you anymore because that, but my opinion is that
there were many instances in war were main armament was fired against skip bombing and torpedo bombers that by definition they fly low. We also dont model japanese main gun AA round and i am sure it scared some pilots at begining . This is a design decision that in facts turns Kageros and Yugumos in pre Akitzukis but it is also your game.

IF there were more slots (and there may be I hear - even in WITP I - at some point) I would model the 8 inch AA shells - because the low ROF means they will almost never work. And they DO have altitude. In fact - there IS a Japanese 6 inch AA gun - and there SHOULD BE a Japanese LAND BASED 8 inch AA gun NEVER in ANY scholarly source - which looks very good. [We just found two of them - covered by vines and concealed by trees - in a park in Singapore!!! Fine modern (1990s like) streamlined gun houses - light enough to move - with powerful motors - they may have been the reason B-29s were ordered to avoid that area.] IF I had a slot I would put it in. We devised 6 inch AA guns for ships - see the Worcester class - and that was only a copy of a PRE WAR idea - see the Dutch cruisers. In the end ultra heavy AA is not an ideal weapon - but it isn't nice if you get hit by the bursts either.

It is likely code - which is still being worked on - may modify how it treats these matters. Anyway - the old gaming standard (and rule of thumb IRL) was "elevation" ALONE decides if it is AA or not? IF it elevates - even if only to 60 degrees - and always if to 75 or 90 - then it is DP (or AA).
el cid again
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RE: Level 6.01 micro update (sans EOS)

Post by el cid again »

I failed to fix the initial version of Tomodzuru to have Type 95 DC vice Type 2. This will appear from x.52.
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