CAGs getting counterattacked

[christian brown]

I got my CAG speed (range) up to 4 and yet when I engage in a CV to CV battle at max range, the enemy (at speed 2) still gets to hit my CVs..............what's wrong with this picture? After spending a zillion precious resources on this (as Japan) I ought to be at least safe from out-of-range US CAGs (boo-hoo-hoo.)

[wargameplayer]

Sounds like you are trying to flesh out the CAG rules which isn't necessarily a bad idea for future patches.
In some ways CAGS seem awfully powerful. A bunch of them together really can go to town in the pacific. And the ability to move that air power almost anywhere quickly helps a ton.

Would be interesting to add a concept for speed vs. range for the fighters and have that impact how the way the CAGS fights. Not sure how you do that tho and still preserve game balance

[christian brown]

ORIGINAL: wargameplayer
Would be interesting to add a concept for speed vs. range for the fighters and have that impact how the way the CAGS fights. Not sure how you do that tho and still preserve game balance

Simple suggestion for the next patch:

Any CAGs' range should be checked when counterattacking CVs, if the range is insufficient to reach them.......you get the idea.
Note: They are indeed powerful (and expensive as heck!) but a player choosing to invest heavily here should reap the max benefit, particularly about this range issue (I actually thought I was totally immune from counterattack when I launched this sortie - shock, surprise, disappointment [X(][:(] ensued when I lost 2 CVs damaged.

[WanderingHead]

I remember this issue coming up a long time ago with WAW1, and frankly I had thought it was fixed in WAW1.

[wargameplayer]

So is this fixed?

Also--if I understand the counterattack rules correctly isn't there a method of exploit.
Specifically. Staging a bunch of cheap fighters from an attack point. Sending in 1 CAG then having all the cheap fighters obliterate the expensive CAG?

I'm still learning how this works fully so i could be wrong.

[Uncle_Joe]

I think the 'attack beyond range' is intended (it did indeed come up in WaW). I dont remember the exact reasonings behind it, but I think it was felt that even though it was a little bit odd it was better than other alternatives.

[WanderingHead]

ORIGINAL: wargameplayer
Also--if I understand the counterattack rules correctly isn't there a method of exploit.
Specifically. Staging a bunch of cheap fighters from an attack point. Sending in 1 CAG then having all the cheap fighters obliterate the expensive CAG?

I'm still learning how this works fully so i could be wrong.

No no, you are correct. I use that trick whenever I can.

One quirk in WAW1 (which is probably still there but I don't know for sure) is that if there is a CV-based CAG that counter attacks then any other air units on CAP in that sea zone will _also_ counter attack with the CAG. Whether this is a bug or not, it does allow one a way to mitigate your "exploit" - put fighters on CAP over your CV fleets.

[christian brown]

Yep, well it still isn't very nice for someone who invests heavily in CAG speed......kind of a rip-off actually....particularly when you consider that all you have to do to prevent this is to "unhook" your CAG from the CV beforehand, such as rebasing to land next to the CV before the strike; this is sort of gamey.
In general, I think it is more interesting to tech up some of the more often overlooked unit attributes (and I don't think this counterstrike rule that ignores CAG range encourages it):
CAG speed, LA
CV speed, EV and AA
LF EV, LA and AA
and so on, they bring spice to the game and help prevent "broken-record" play.  I'd really like to see this changed for the next patch. 

[WanderingHead]

It would be helpful if someone could find the old WAW1 discussion on the subject. Maybe we'd learn something we already knew, and maybe there was a good reason it was never changed.

[MrQuiet]

ORIGINAL: christian brown

I got my CAG speed (range) up to 4 and yet when I engage in a CV to CV battle at max range, the enemy (at speed 2) still gets to hit my CVs..............what's wrong with this picture? After spending a zillion precious resources on this (as Japan) I ought to be at least safe from out-of-range US CAGs (boo-hoo-hoo.)

According to the rules 8.7.3 there should only be a counterstrike if the Carriers are in adjacent sea zones.

Whenever Carrier Fleet based Air units in a sea region attack an adjacent sea region that contains
Carrier Fleet based Air units, after their air attack is resolved, all remaining aircraft (including
Carrier Air and land-based Air units flying patrol) remaining in the attacked sea region will
immediately launch a counterstrike into the sea region containing the attacking Carrier Fleet.

Was this the case?
I am thinking not if you flew your attacking CAGs 4mp.
So there should have been no counter strike according to the rules.


-MrQuiet

[GKar]

MrQuiet is right (as usual [;)]).

It makes much less sense to research CAG movement/range when the enemy will counterattack regardless of his range.

[coralsaw]

Bump. Could we have an official answer if this is a feature or a bug? Thx.

/coralsaw

[JanSorensen]

Personally, I think the best solution is to keep it the way it is right now - change the rules to fit the game.
 
Afterall, its not exactly realistic to allow the attacker to first be able to know exactly where to launch his strike from to reach the enemy yet be outside enemy range AND still get maximum value from his attacking planes. So, either way it has to be abstracted - and the current implementation seems as good as any alternative.
 
Sure, its odd that planes can somehow exceed their range - but then again the area movement system is highly abstract in particular when it comes to aircraft so its only a matter of taking the movement points in a less literal manner.
 
In short. I dont see a change that adds anything significantly in terms of realism or gameplay - and with any change to code there is a risk of adding new bugs as well as new gameplay issues. So, I dont see the risk being worth the effort as the gain appears foggy at best.

[Joel Billings]

The way the program is working is correct, the manual is wrong. The second paragraph in section 8.7.3 should state:

Whenever Carrier Fleet based Air units in a sea region attack an area (other than the one containing the attacking Carrier Fleet(s)) that contains Carrier Fleet based Air units, after the attack is resolved, all remaining aircraft (including Carrier Air and land-based Air units flying patrol) remaining in the attacked sea region will immediatley launch a counterstrike into the sea region containing the attacking Carrier fleet. Air units counterattacking are not limited by their Speed when counterstriking.